OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Things that bug me about Episode III (well, just a few things)

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, May 28, 2005 21:01
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10042
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Sunday, May 22, 2005 1:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The problem I have w/ this movie was the issue of continuity. It's a tiny stickler, I know, but it's bugging me. From the time the Republic falls to become the Empire up untill R2D2 finds his way (back) to Tatooine and Luke, it's been only what, 17, 18..20 yrs, tops? ( I guess this shows how casual a fan I am, and expect to be corrected by those more in the know)

So here's the kicker. If Darth Vader was such a bad ass right from the start, how is it that..
.

1) He gets so little respect in Episode 4 by that Imperial general while on board the Death Star? "I find your lack of faith disturbing." The Jedi have only been gone for 20 yrs ?, and yet w/ the baddest Sith dude in the Galaxy right in front of him, this idiot sneers and mocks at the very notion of anything such as 'The Force'. Same could be said for Han (Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. ) Solo never seemed to get the memo either.

2)Exactly how long DOES it take to build a Death Star ? Seems it takes a lot less time to build a 2nd one.

3)In Return of the Jedi, when Luke asks Leia what she could remember about her mom, Leia replied 'Not much, she died when I was very young'.

Select to view spoiler:


Yeah, I'll say! I thought she was around long enough for Leia to remember things like how her mom being sad.



I really wanted to like this movie more, and it was better than Eps 1 and 2. But as 3 came to a close and the inevitable 'set up' for Ep 4, I have to ask.... How was this story screwed up so badly? The prequels should have been relatively an easy thing to pull off, yet much of it was just nonsense

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, May 22, 2005 1:45 PM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


To address one...The Sith don't go around telling everyone that they are the masters of Evil. If you'll notice, Palpatine never mentions it in public. But, according to everything we know, there are only four individuals who practice Jedi/Sith arts, and follow the Force. 4 people. And Darth Vader doesn't go around in public that much, that we are presented, and when he does, there's an assload of Stormtroopers around him. The Galactic Empire is pretty big. You'll notice that Grand Moff Tarkin can seem to control him, and how is that? Because Palpatine has appointed him over Vader, and Vader does whatever Palpatine says.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 12:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by manwithpez:
To address one...The Sith don't go around telling everyone that they are the masters of Evil. If you'll notice, Palpatine never mentions it in public. But, according to everything we know, there are only four individuals who practice Jedi/Sith arts, and follow the Force. 4 people. And Darth Vader doesn't go around in public that much, that we are presented, and when he does, there's an assload of Stormtroopers around him. The Galactic Empire is pretty big. You'll notice that Grand Moff Tarkin can seem to control him, and how is that? Because Palpatine has appointed him over Vader, and Vader does whatever Palpatine says.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."



Well, to be fair, Palpatine had a vested interest in not letting folks knew who he was. Especially folks like the Jedi. But w/ Darth Vader, the cat's kinda already out of the bag, what w/ the mask, the cape and all.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 23, 2005 2:51 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Ever since Episode I something struck me as odd.
Quote:

Originally posted by manwithpez:
But, according to everything we know, there are only four individuals who practice Jedi/Sith arts, and follow the Force. 4 people.


Four people, two dark and two light. If that is the case the force seems balanced to me. How could Obi not see that coming? He never struck me as one to miss out on that kind of thing, and he never seemed the one to blindly follow someone else’s interpretation of a prophesy without thoroughly thinking it over himself.

In fact how could all of the Jedi be so blind? It was only in this episode that anyone even mentioned the possibility of the prophecy being misread.

-

On to answers to the questions.
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The problem I have w/ this movie was the issue of continuity.


That is a problem, the stuff really got screwed over royally. The odd part is that the books manage to maintain continuity in spite of being written by many different people with many different visions and yet these movies, the official events, totally fail to do so.

Regardless.

Quote:

It's a tiny stickler, I know, but it's bugging me. From the time the Republic falls to become the Empire up untill R2D2 finds his way (back) to Tatooine and Luke, it's been only what, 17, 18..20 yrs, tops? ( I guess this shows how casual a fan I am, and expect to be corrected by those more in the know)

About that.

Quote:

So here's the kicker. If Darth Vader was such a bad ass right from the start, how is it that..

1) He gets so little respect in Episode 4 by that Imperial general while on board the Death Star? "I find your lack of faith disturbing." The Jedi have only been gone for 20 yrs ?, and yet w/ the baddest Sith dude in the Galaxy right in front of him, this idiot sneers and mocks at the very notion of anything such as 'The Force'. Same could be said for Han (Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. ) Solo never seemed to get the memo either.


Well I watched the Episode and figured that was just another bout of stupidity, but then my sister said something to me.

I asked why Vader would go from, “I can overthrow the chancellor,” to, “Yes master,” when he was so much more powerful than the emperor. I wasn’t expecting an actual answer.

Then she brought something up, our friend Vader owes the Emperor only one thing, his life. He started working for the guy to save his wife, yet he is told that it was the anger that the Emperor himself pushed him into that killed her.

Then he convinced himself, quite quickly, that the Jedi were a threat to the republic, which the Emperor destroyed.

The only thing left worthy of serving the guy for is saving his life.

(Anyone who says the Emperor is more powerful consider this, without defending himself or fighting back at all he was able to withstand much more of the lightning than Palpintine himself, and it was only after a long and presumably tiring fight with his son that even that extended exposure had the force to kill him.)

So the logical question becomes what would have happened if Obi had gone back and saved what was left of the guy?

It was the love of a son that brought him back, Obi was like a brother. Could that have been enough to redeem him?

-

How this relates to your question is simple, if his desire for power was left behind on that rock, and not revived until he saw his son in action, is there any reason that he would object to being placed below Tarkin? Not that I can think of.

The devotion to a single person is a passionate act, even if it is just as a result of a debt, thus it falls firmly in the category of a Dark Side way of thinking. So with all of this devotion and loyalty he probably would not object to being forced to serve in a lower ranking position as some form of punishment.

Quote:

2)Exactly how long DOES it take to build a Death Star ? Seems it takes a lot less time to build a 2nd one.

I asked that one too, and you have to reach quite a bit to come up with a satisfactory answer. Still, in a completely different movie they did have an answer for you, it went something like this:

“Government spending 101, ‘Why bild one when you can have two for twice the price?’”

Quote:

3)In Return of the Jedi, when Luke asks Leia what she could remember about her mom, Leia replied 'Not much, she died when I was very young'.

Select to view spoiler:


Yeah, I'll say! I thought she was around long enough for Leia to remember things like how her mom being sad.



Ok, so I can’t really make something up to fix this, but I’ll give it a shot anyway. The reason I do this is that if I can convince myself the movie actually didn’t contradict half of what was said in the originals I might be able to enjoy it more.

Leia could have simply been dreaming of her mother and assumed they were memories. The fact that she thinks her mother died at a certain time doesn’t mean she actually did. Some adopted children build elaborate fantasies about their real parents, perhaps she is no different and believes that she actually knew her real mother for a time.

Quote:

I really wanted to like this movie more, and it was better than Eps 1 and 2.

You are not the only one, and yes it was.

Quote:

But as 3 came to a close and the inevitable 'set up' for Ep 4, I have to ask.... How was this story screwed up so badly? The prequels should have been relatively an easy thing to pull off, yet much of it was just nonsense.

My theory, it was made to appeal to a stupider audience, or perhaps a younger one.

Star Wars fans will watch the movies no matter what, they have to. They will buy them, they have to. You don’t buy a book and cut out the first three chapters no matter how bad they are, and Fans will not do that.

As a result to make money off of those fans they don’t actually have to do anything. On the other hand if the thing that has been making steady money for so many years doesn’t get a hold of the young-lings now they might not guy it later, or so they might think.

Small children generally don’t care about continuity, story, or acting. They might think they do, but for the majority continuity boils down to the fact that Natalie Portman’s tights mysteriously switched during one scene (easily forgiven), and they have not spent enough years in the world to know bad acting or a bad script.

I don’t think children should be thought of in that way, I think they can rise to the level of expectation, but I think that those creating the prequels did.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 2:52 AM

CALHOUN


Quote:

AURaptor wrote:
Sunday, May 22, 2005 13:20

I really wanted to like this movie more, and it was better than Eps 1 and 2. But as 3 came to a close and the inevitable 'set up' for Ep 4, I have to ask.... How was this story screwed up so badly?



Same. I really wanted to like this movie too, I didnt hate it. I think Lucas is still going over the top with special effects and forgeting the characters and story.

The light sabre fights and indeed all the combat happens to fast and doesnt convince me. Imagine extremely well choreographed Light sabre fights slowed down in an almost Matrix style, I reckon that would work for me. The Light sabre fights were just flash,flash,flash,flash,flash leaving no chance to appreciate fighting moves.

Anakins turn to the dark side was way too quick for me, seemed to be very little inner turmoil with him. It was like the flick of a switch.

I still prefer the original trilogy.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 3:00 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


I never really thought about it before, since so much of the novel's continuities are disregarded, but what if that was the prototype Death Star that was sitting in The Maw all those years?

Lucas seems to point to the novels, and ignore them other times...maybe that's exactly what that's supposed to be.

Yeah, I know, i'm reachin'...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 3:10 AM

REAVERDELI


I loved the movie, all of the movies in fact. I have but 2 problems with #3.. fatal flaws (but I still loved the movie)..

1. Obi-won does not want to kill Anikan but he will let him be burned alive with missing limbs and no way to leave his impending doom to the lava. If he loved him, he would have put him out of his misery.

2. Padme would not give up on life after birthing twins. I think that the kids would have kept her going. Motherly instinct to be with her babies.

My 2 cents.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 3:37 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE


There will likely be spoilers, but I'm not gonna shadow them, so be warned.

My main issue with Ep 3 (MAIN issue, which is not to say I only have one) revolves around Luke and Leia. After they're born, they decide to split them, take them to remote areas where Anakin would not find them. Leia goes with Bail Organa - not a terribly bad idea, so I'll let that one slide.

Luke goes to Tattooine. ... Allow me to repeat - Tattooine. Anakin's home planet. To live in the house where Anakin's mother lived before she was abducted. To live with people that ANAKIN HAD SEEN BEFORE. Not exactly screaming "low profile" here. Sure, Obi-Wan was going to Tattooine, as well, and planned to look over Luke, but it still doesn't seem like the greatest plan. I know Luke had to go back there because that's where he started in Ep 4, but it could have been explained in a different and MUCH better way.

As could many other things. At the end, Yoda was talking to Kenobi and was like, "Oh yeah, Qui-Gon just figured out how to talk to us from the beyond. I'ma teach you how to talk to him." Kinda like an afterthought. Alot of what happened in the movie seemed like afterthought, which is crappy considering I was expecting some interesting connections from Ep 3 to Ep 4.

Dooku dies 10 minutes in (Christopher Lee gets no respect). It felt like George Lucas was saying, "OK, Anakin HAS to kill Dooku. So let's just have him do it and get it over with. No suspense, 'cause people know Anakin ain't gonna die." Windu died, having never connected to most fans in any significant way other than the fact that he was played by Samuel L. Jackson. And his fight with the Emperor - perhaps the WORST SCENE of any Star Wars movie EVER. "Urgh, agh, Anakin don't listen to him, urgh, agh." Not totally the fault of the actors in the scene - I'm sure it wasn't written any better.

The more I think about Ep 3, the more I dislike it. I've come to realize - again, considering I said this after Ep 1 and 2 - that none of the prequels had the spirit of Eps 4-6. They aren't funny, smart, thought-provoking, moving - they don't hold many qualities that make me want to watch them over and over. I loved the scene where Obi-Wan dismembered Anakin and he slid down the hill and caught fire - for some reason, everything in that scene came together for me. Past that ...


----------------------------------------------
STEVEthePIRATE wants to see Star Wars Episode 3.5: Kill the Furry Ones. Yoda lands on Degobah and finds it infested with Ewoks. Yoda goes nutjob and kills them all. Fun would be had by all.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:37 AM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


FROM MY BLOG......................

the first hour----boooorrrring! The space battles--been there done that,you know they are gonna survive there is no danger and it's just not that fun,I kept asking where my x-box controller was.
My biggest beef, was how fast he turned to the dark side. It all happened in a matter of 24 hours. He was about to turn in the emperor
to the Jedi council one moment and 24 hours later, he's mowing down Jedi children and killing dozens. Lucas was heading in the right direction-
the relationship between him and the council, the feeling of betrayal, the isolation, etc. but because he ran out of time it required this
gigantic leap at the end... a leap that simply didn't make sense or at least was understandable.
Oh! and wookies? WASTED! USELESS! POINTLESS!

I didn't as much hate the dialogue between Padme and Anikan,(I swear to god if she calls him "annie" one more time i'm going to throw a copy of the "annie" dvd at Natilie Portmans' head)as much as i was disappointed with its content. It didn't progress their relationship.
It didn't change or evolve toward something- toward anything. Her feelings remained the same the whole way thru- she was in love with him,
believed him and supported him right up until the end. I wanted their conversations to continue to break down as the movie progressed. I wanted his
desperation to save their love to be part of the reason he turned, but it simply wasn't there. None of that happened. a huge missed opportunity.

Yoda is completely wrong- again (He is clearly angry in the movie and anger leads to the dark side). The limp diminutive character (size does
not matter) that is introduced in 'empire' is long lost in these movies. The
hopping, jumping and quick flashy Yoda simply betrays all of what Yoda was teaching Luke in the swamps. whatever happened to the idea that less is
more. Just because Yoda flips the structure of his sentences, doesn't make it more insightful. "turning toward the dark side, Anikan is" is still "Anikan is turning toward the dark side"- that's what we get from the Jedi supreme
master? Lucas seems to use this structure to make up for the lack of writing ability, and he uses this trick way too often- it becomes very
annoying. Remember, some of yoda's best lines aren't structured like that:
"that is why you fail"

Get rid of the ultra silly chase sequences. phantom had the overly long and suspenseless pod race and the silly underwater chase, clones had
the conveyor frogger belt sequence and the jason and Argonauts gladiator fight, and this movie had the most of all three- the opening battle sequence with the distracting robot insects, the lizard chase sequence with grievous
(that was painful), most of all the annoying escape from grievous' ship culminating in the nonsensical landing of his ship. It seemed this
movie had either huge action sequences of quiet moments between two characters-nothing in between.

The light saber duels should be less complicated, not more. The simple duel
between Luke and vader in empire was easy to follow, had dire consequences,was unevenly matched (which seems to be a quality lacking in the morerecent duels) and was thrilling. The spinning sabers, the four sabers of grievous, the endlessly redundant saber sequences but in different locations, the lack of quiet intervals, the moving of objects with the force, etc. It all takes away from the clarity and impact of the duel. Each one of them had a predestined outcome, which would make the duel up until
the outcome the important and suspenseful part, but they were all the same- a repeat of the darth maul duel. It was all the same, over and over...
no innovation.

the whole staging of the vader creation sequence. It didn't work for me... I can't explain it, but it lacked the impact. Think of how kershner handled Hans' freezing and the impact of seeing him at the end. I'm not
asking for that, but in better hands we could have had a great moment.

There are more, but what is so disappointing is how low these movies have sunk. mediocrity has become the norm. this movie only slightly rises
above that and suddenly critics and fans are happy, which is what was so disappointing. I left the movie entertained, but not moved at all.

Think of these great lines: 'the incredibles'- "I'm not strong enough to loose you again", in iron giant- "you don't have to be a gun, you
choose", in x2- "...because we shouldn't have to" or " you are a god among insects, and don't let anyone.. blah, blah". All great movie conjure up emotion thru a combination of great lines and great action. The action in sith was good,
not great, but there were no great line in the whole movie, at all. What was the most memorable line? "riiise"? that's it?
With great power comes great responsibility. Such lost potential. A modest movie that overachieves should be rewarded. A huge movie that misses
the mark and in some ways aims low, should be penalized. May the force be with you.......or not,I really don't care anymore.

Oh and one more thing--i've seen Serenity and all the problems above DO NOT happen in the movie.Joss has done the impossible(apparently judging from movies like ROTS) and that makes HIM mighty.It's such a great and shiny movie!



"Hamsters is nice."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:53 AM

BLEYDDYN


Ok, this seems kinda silly, since no-one else has, but I'm wrapping this in spoiler space.

Quote:

Originally posted by reaverdeli:
2.

Select to view spoiler:


Padme would not give up on life after birthing twins. I think that the kids would have kept her going. Motherly instinct to be with her babies.





I also agree with your point #1, but this one bothered me much more. In my opinion, Padme was, by far, the strongest character in episodes 1 & 2. Not strong as in "My Force is Stronger than Yours", but strong as in she had the determination to do what she thought was right, no matter what the personal cost. The only exception I could see was her marrying Anakin.

Select to view spoiler:


And yet, with two new-born babies to raise, she just gave up.

Arrggg!

--Bleyddyn

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:58 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


I completely disagree about Yoda. I don't recall seeing him get angry once in the film. When he was throwing down with Palpatine, I got the idea of "This has to be done", and even a little desperation when he failed to do it. That fight was editted fairly badly though. When they would cut away to Anakin and Obi-Wan and then back again, it looked like we were missing things from both fights.

In watching the film again,(Don't ask) it seemed that Mace and Palpatine's duel came off lame. It looks like they are trying extra careful not to hit each other. I didn't get that feeling with Anakin and Ben. They were going balls out, and it shows...Which makes the end of that duel all the more disappointing. I will say that I did like Ben warning Anakin at the end to not try. And Anakin doing it anyways. But, the follow up line of Anakin's "I HATE YOU"...Surely this character doesn't need to keep spewing dialogue from Episdoe 2. It is so childish, and childish is not one of the things I think Anakin is...It doesn't fit with him being a hardened soldier, and a General in the Clone Wars. I didn't mind the dialogue in the council induction scene except for "It's not fair." I think Mace should have risen, and calmly bitchslapped him and said "Oh, did I break your concentration?"

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 6:52 AM

RABIT


While, in general, I was also disappointed with the movie, it was "entertaining". That's all.
Quote:

Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
Think of these great lines: 'the incredibles'- "I'm not strong enough to loose you again", in iron giant- "you don't have to be a gun, you
choose", in x2- "...because we shouldn't have to" or " you are a god among insects, and don't let anyone.. blah, blah". All great movie conjure up emotion thru a combination of great lines and great action. The action in sith was good,
not great, but there were no great line in the whole movie, at all. What was the most memorable line?

"This is how Liberty dies - with thunderous applause."



Rabit

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Monday, May 23, 2005 7:08 AM

CTPARKER333


Let me start off by saying that it's been a long time since I've seeen the original movies, and I've never read the books, so I'm working from memory (which is dangerous in any occation):

As to Leia memeries about her mother, is it possible that she is refering to Organa's wife (her adoptive mother) and not Padme?

As for Luke being taken to Tatooine, I agree that that was a stupid move, especially since Luke kept the family name of Skywalker. Maybe there were other members of the Skywalker family in the area, but you would think they would take a bit more care when hiding Luke Skywalker on Anikin Skywalker's own home planet.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 7:16 AM

REAVERMADNESS


Here's a couple of things I thought... and you can figure out what that's worth for yourself.

Select to view spoiler:



I gueess this is a kind of spoiler... The crappy CGI. I hear people saying wow that was great but... it wasn't. No don't get me wrong. Some was cool. I like the lizard mount Obi had. And the robots for the most part was good... but why the CG on some of the "people" who were just standing around. And it was the worst CG. Some of the storme troopers and such. Heck I mean it would have been fine without those "people" in the shot. But then to put them in soooo poorly! And at the end when Vader is standing there looking at the Death Star and the do a really really bad CG job on the guy (admiral or captin somethingaruther) that we saw in Ep4. (Let's not forget the awful "head jobs" they did on the clones when you had a group of them together without their helmets on. Lucus: why oh why have you turned to the cheap side of the force?



As far as good lines from the movie:
"That's how democracy ends... with thunderous applause."... or something like that.


When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 7:57 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by manwithpez:
I didn't mind the dialogue in the council induction scene except for "It's not fair." I think Mace should have risen, and calmly bitchslapped him and said "Oh, did I break your concentration?"


Really, I thought he was correct there. It wasn’t fair and it wasn’t right, as he says, “How can you be on the council and not be a master?” and the answer came as, “We don’t really want you on the council but we need a spy.”

Doesn’t seem fair to me, further everything we are told about the appointment seems to go against the way of the Jedi. Compromising a system of rules that was carefully refined over a thousand generations as part of a plot to get an unreliable spy in place when he was already in place?

Saying he was on the council and not ready to be a master was saying he was a pawn, that isn’t fair. The explanation given afterwards just confirms that in addition to being unfair it is dishonest and perhaps a bit unjust.

-

-

It always seemed to me that putting Luke with family and giving him the family name was really part of a larger plan by Yoda and Obi, the only thing that has changed in that line of thinking with III is now it seems that it was just Yoda.

They were manipulating Luke in the original trilogy, pushing him towards a confrontation with Vader.

The family name made it so even if Obi were to die or be shut out that confrontation would occur. Of course if that is the case it was only a backup plan, reason being that Yoda did not want Luke to know.

Vader had no reason to look for his kid, his wife was made to look pregnant in the funerary procession, and I don’t think he ever wanted to return to his home.

-

Of course I get funny looks for this theory, most people Just think Luke was a decoy so that Vader wouldn’t find Leia.

It is a simple enough idea, if Vader finds out the baby was born (easy enough if he became suspicious) he looks and quickly finds Luke. He doesn’t know there was more than one child so he leaves it at that.

If the guy had said, “My wife and I have talked about adopting a baby boy,” it would be Leia Skywalker on the farm as a decoy.

-

-

Did anyone else get annoyed at Yoda talking normally? If he said all of his sentences in Yoda-English I think the way he spoke would stick out less and flow more. Instead he would say one sentence in normal English and the next in his reverse style.

It was jarring for me.

It’s pretty hard to jar me too, when Milton says, “Him who disobeys Me disobeys,” it doesn’t phase me, but having someone change their entire speech pattern from one sentence to the next is too much of a headache.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 7:58 AM

KINGPAUSE


Regarding the Death Star question - I don't remember for sure, but I don't think there was anything in "Jedi" that said that construction for the second Death Star started after the first one was destroyed. The crawl says something like, "Little did the Rebels know that construction had begun on a new Death Star", I think, i.e. it doesn't say WHEN construction began. I always assumed that construction began as soon as the first one was COMPLETED, not destroyed.

As for the how-does-Leia-remember-Padme thing, hey, if enough people get talking about this, be prepared to see a supposedly-"deleted scene" on the DVD (actually an all-new scene filmed especially for the DVD, but posing as something that was "intended to be part of the movie all along", but cut either by the studio (so it's the studio's fault) or for "pacing issues" (so it's the audience's fault)) to explain it somehow - either Padme slips some hologram thing to Bail Organa with instructions to pass it on to Leia, or Leia is shown to have some super Jedi baby memory or something (a trait passed on by mitichlorians - aargh, don't get me started).

Rant end.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 8:08 AM

SLOWDOG


Spoiler nation.

1. "Hey, 3PO, Master Anakin just went postal at the Temple!" Yeah, thanks for the heads up, R2.

2. And for that matter... that droid knows *everything*. Works with C3PO for 20 years, says nothing. Carted around w/ Luke & Co. through their adventures, says nothing. Goes to Dagobah- does he not remember what Yoda looks like? Droid has an agenda.

3. So Mace thinks 4 jedi is enough to make sure the human Chancellor gives up his emergency powers when the war ends. What's that? He's a Sith Lord? Meh, 4 should be enough.

4. Yeah, you know that Chosen One kid? The whiny one who thinks we've been treating him crappily for 10 years? And has apparently been hanging out with a Sith Lord the whole time? Yeah, let's just... tell him to go chill out somewhere. No need to tell anyone else and the shuttle's waiting.

5. I thought Vader hunted down the Jedi. Looks like the clones did all the heavy lifting and somebody took all the credit.

6. Re: Luke hiding (using Anakin's last name, living with Anakin's stepbrother, on Anakin's homeworld), I blame the Republic/Imperial bureacracy. This is the same crew that took 20 years to build a Death Star and had an accounting system that allowed someone to sneak a CLONE ARMY in with the toner invoices. And yet they got new uniforms at the drop of a hat.

7. The three epic battles were so much CGI fluff. There was no flow to the battles, nobody really "won" and they weren't really important to the story except as window dressing.

8. I am willing to believe that Leia was referring to her adopted mother (assuming she didn't yet realize she was adopted). But yeah.

9. Music video editing. Made it hard to focus on just what was going on and they kept hopping all over the place.

10. I read elsewhere someone's analysis of why Anakin turns and it makes perfect sense. All the evidence is there in the movies. But somehow Lucas just didn't make it that clear; it still felt like Anakin rolled over.

11. C3PO had his memory wiped and R2 lost most of his gadgets because....?

It was probably the best of the new trilogy, but that's like talking about Badger's nicest suit... There were some things that did work for me.

1. Most of the Anakin/Palpatine scenes. Probably didn't hurt that Palpatine had most of the lines.

2. The symetry of Palpatine watching Anakin/Dooku compared to Luke/Vader.

3. Obi-Wan stopping to pick up Anakin's lightsabre (to be given to Luke).

4. Most of the sequence on Mustapha (sp?). Anakin "taking care" of the Separatists and the fight with Obi-Wan were good. The confrontation on the landing pad... meh.

5. Vader on the operating table, and thinking as the helmet came down that that was the last thing he would see with his own eyes for some time.

6. The Emperor telling Vader that he had killed Padme with his anger, which was true... from a certain point of view.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 8:20 AM

2BY2


This is another thing that's been added to the prequels for no other reason than to annoy me while watching the original trilogy: Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him, that he will train while in exile and be able to commune with Qui-Gon and turn into, for lack of a better term, a blue ghostie. Now, a big hullaballo was kicked up when Lucas decided to add Hayden Christensen in the DVD release of Return of the Jedi, which I thought was arbitrary and obnoxious. But now, we've learned that Obi and Yoda had to train to become blue ghosties and 'live on eternally,' (not an exact quote, but another quibble since, isn't that what the SITH were looking to achieve??) he shouldn't be there standing next to Yoda and Obi-Wan AT ALL... *sigh* As has been said before, entertaining movie, but that's not gonna stop me from nitpicking something that shouldn't have happened from a writing standpoint. As it is though, EPIII is the only prequel I'll bother buying on DVD. Okay, rant over.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 8:21 AM

NXOJKT


I've gotta go with CHRISTHECYNIC here...

Luke was left with his family without concern for two reasons

1) The emperor was made to think that Padme had died before giving birth.

2) It was assumed by the jedi that Anakin died. Why would they need to hide him from Anakin if he burned to death following his duel with Anakin. By the time the knowledge came about that Vader had survived, Yoda was exiled on Dagobah and could not risk surfacing to move Luke. Afterall, with the combination of Anakin thinking Padme had died before giving birth and Obi-Wan watching Luke, there's no real reason to fear. Tatooine was a remote planet, and other than a few of Luke's friends, like Bigss, it is unlikely anyone knew that the young boy on the Lars farm was a "Skywalker."

It's also unlikely that anyone not closely related to the events of Ep III would know that Anakin was Darth Vader, and would likely have thought Anakin Skywalker was killed in the Jedi purge, as Obi-Wan told Luke. Only Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, Anakin, and Bail Organa would have known that Anakin was Vader. Yoda and Obi-Wan chose not to tell Luke, and Bail Organa died either prior to Ep IV or when Alderan was destroyed, either of which was before Leia met Luke. Of course, Organa would not have told Leia anything about her father or brother anyway.

There are problems with the film, as there are with all 6. But most continuity things have fairly easy explanations... it's whether or not you want to accept those explanations. Either way, it causes conversation about the movie, which is likely what one-time experimental film maker George Lucas would probably like.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 8:26 AM

RHYMEPHILE


There was so much to disappoint in this episode, which was unfortunate. My musings are mainly nit-picky.

First of all, pretty battle sequence in the beginning, but WHY must we always start the new movies as if we're in the middle? I mean, where did Grevious come from? (And we've sunk to a new low: an asthmatic robot??) Why was Palpatine being held on the ship? Yeah, I saw the scroll at the start, "War!", which we knew was coming, but why can't we have a movie that will SHOW us rather than TELL us what has been happening?

I agree with the demise of Dooku. Too quick, and we get the throw-off line from Anakin, something to the effect of, "I'm much stronger than you, now," to explain the easy way in which he defeats him.

Am I the only one to take exception to the fact that many of the fights in the new movies are 2 on 1? It seems unfair; I think back to The Rules of Highlander which state that no two Immortals can take on another. I mean, jeez.

I wish Lucas would have given his actors some direction with the pronunciation of Padme's name. There's an accent over the "e", which means her name is Pad-may, not Pad-mee.

It's too bad that the moments of the film that were supposed to be the most heart-wrenching and tender were the most laughable because of the dialogue. Just about every exchange between Anakin and Padme had the audience snickering.

Lucas could have excised an hour of film at the start (cut the entire battle sequence; cut Grevious entirely; cut the long, expensive-looking lizard-riding; cut the WHOLE DAMN WOOKIEE PLANET, because, pointless; among other things) and given us more on the fall of Anakin. I agree his turn was way too quick.

Again, both Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman were weak in their performances. Christensen just did not have the depth to maintain that role; a few moments spent glowering does not make an "evil" performance.

I could go on, but there were a few moments I enjoyed.

1. I do admit the reveal of Grevious's four arms was pretty cool. But Obi-Wan defeated him way too easily.

2. Watching the destruction of the Jedi after the "Order 66" was given kind of upset me. It wasn't that it was emotionally touching in the film -- it made me think about Star Wars that much more and the Rebel Alliance's and Jedi's struggle.

3. The best moment of the film by far was the scene when Anakin heads to the Jedi Temple to destroy the Younglings. When the little kid asks, "What do we do, Master Skywalker? There are too many of them," and Anakin lights his Lightsaber -- watch the little boy back up in surprise, a frightened look on his face. That's a great moment that should have been played up more to show how truly evil Anakin had become.

4. Props for the usage of James Earl Jones. That was definitely cool. But the "Noooooooooo!" was so lame the audience was hysterical.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I've seen life on this planet, Scully, and that's precisely why I'm looking elsewhere."

-- Fox Mulder, The X-Files

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Monday, May 23, 2005 11:30 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES


Quote:

Originally posted by nxojkt:

1) The emperor was made to think that Padme had died before giving birth.



Did you feel a disturbance in the force?

Disturbance in the force? Nope, not me my master. We've all been feeling things happening all over the galaxy these past few hours and suddenly, nothing.

You sure? Because that sure felt like a disturbance to me.

Probably gas. Antacid?

Quote:


2) It was assumed by the jedi that Anakin died. Why would they need to hide him from Anakin if he burned to death following his duel with Anakin. By the time the knowledge came about that Vader had survived, Yoda was exiled on Dagobah and could not risk surfacing to move Luke.



Bearded bloke with a cape - talking to a blue ghost. Surely at that point Obi wan thinks - maybe should have kicked him into the lava, or checked he actually died - but still, its not as though me old mucker Anakin hasn't come back to Tatooine in murderous rages before, so we'll just wait and, oh bugger, he's right above us. Time flies when you're having fun.

How come Vader didn't know where his brother, Obi Wan was? Surely some explanation would be required - if you're throwing plot points to the toilet wall in a dirty protest to see what sticks, how about something on that?

"Tear this plot apart until you find those holes."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 11:40 AM

LOBOHAN


I've seen it and hate so much of the movie that I just may turn to the dark side myself.

Honestly the dialog was terrible. I personally found the "This is how liberty dies..." line very contrived and silly. I think a good director/screenwriter wouldn't need any dialog at all to get that feeling across.

I liked the effects, in places. Great lightsaber duels, they felt dangerous and frantic. The space sequences were good looking, but stupid.

Select to view spoiler:


I mean any jerk can fly up to a Capital ship blast it's landing bay sheild generator (which is on the outside of the ship!) and fly on in? Also the Ray Shields (Not sure of the spelling) that can immobolize anyone, including Jedi make it seem like it was a really bad idea to run onto that ship. I can't imagine why someone would board a ship with two people when you know the ship has one of those systems. Were they just hoping that Grevious would forget about it? Well actually hid did forget about it for the first 15 minutes of their rampage. And this guy is a General?!

Then there is the lava droid that Anakin is riding for a few minutes during his duel with Obi Wan. He super-jumps onto the top of a droid that's skimming the lava and it somehow flys exactly where he wants it to without any verbal communication. If the droid is mindless then it should follow it's programming. If it can think it probably should do something about the human that just fell on it's head. Take it to safety or something. Not maneauver around so he can swordfight better! Maybe it had foot controls on it's head though.



Anywho, I'll stop now, I just intended to relate an opionon here and I'm getting all worked up.



"If they take the ship, they’ll rape us to death, eat our flesh and sew our skins into their clothing, and if we’re very, very lucky, they’ll do it in that order."

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Monday, May 23, 2005 11:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Leia could have simply been dreaming of her mother and assumed they were memories. The fact that she thinks her mother died at a certain time doesn’t mean she actually did. Some adopted children build elaborate fantasies about their real parents, perhaps she is no different and believes that she actually knew her real mother for a time.



Wouldn't a 'grown up' Leia kinda figure that out and tell it like it was? Like..."I'm not really sure, but I have memories of...". That scene w/ her and Luke was fairly intimate, so it just seems Leia would give more of a 'from the heart' answer. And why wouldn't Luke have any such memories? Anything at all? Just seems a bit much to accept from a story that catered so heavily to the mouth breather mentality.

Eh, I'll give Ep III partial credit for evoking 'some' nostalgia for the original movies, but it just seems that's the very LEAST it could have done.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 23, 2005 3:10 PM

OPPYH


The thing that bugged me the most:

1. No Serenity trailer

2. That's pretty much it. I thought the film was awesome.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 3:30 PM

HKCAVALIER


Hey, everybody, I don't think anyone's mentioned this but the simple reason that Leia can say she remembers her mother dying when she was very young is because she is not talking about Padme at all. She doesn't know Padme exists any more than Luke knows about Anakin. She thinks she's an Organa not a Skywalker, right? The mother that died was the Senator's wife. Isn't it just that simple?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:17 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The mother that died was the Senator's wife. Isn't it just that simple?


That would be a huge no.

Unless she had three mothers, which is possible.

If she didn’t know of at least two mothers why would she think she knew what Luke meant by, “real mother,”?

If Organa's wife died when Leia was young and then he remarried perhaps she would believe that when Luke asked about her real mother he meant her adopted father’s first wife.

Still, even then she should probably be able to put two skin colors together and come out in a not-her-genetic-parents direction.

And, actually, checking the line she never really said she had memories of her mother. First she says she remembers a little bit, but then, when pressed, she says, “Just images really, feelings.” That sounds a bit like a force induced vision to me so perhaps the continuity is not quite as screwed up as I thought it was.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:31 PM

HKCAVALIER


Ah, I was afraid I didn't remember things right and...I didn't...thanks for the correction.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, May 23, 2005 5:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

And, actually, checking the line she never really said she had memories of her mother. First she says she remembers a little bit, but then, when pressed, she says, “Just images really, feelings.” That sounds a bit like a force induced vision to me so perhaps the continuity is not quite as screwed up as I thought it was.


I didn't check the script, and it's been ages since I've seen Return..., but I thought I recalled her saying something about having memories of her mother being sad. Either I'm confusing that w/ some other movie, or it plays in w/ the whole 'force induced ' stuff. Which leads me to thinkin....if Leia had these feelings and Luke didn't (least that we know of ), could it be that the Force is stronger w/ her than Luke?



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 23, 2005 7:59 PM

DRE


Quote:

Originally posted by RhymePhile:

First of all, pretty battle sequence in the beginning, but WHY must we always start the new movies as if we're in the middle? I mean, where did Grevious come from? (And we've sunk to a new low: an asthmatic robot??)



The 'Clone Wars' animated series is actually official filler for this. Grievous appears as the 'face' of the Separatist Army while Dooku is its political agenda.
Also, Grievous breathes labouriously because when he takes Palpatine from Coruscant, he is wounded by Shaak Ti pretty badly.



Quote:


I wish Lucas would have given his actors some direction with the pronunciation of Padme's name. There's an accent over the "e", which means her name is Pad-may, not Pad-mee.



Actually, the accent can vary depending on the language (some IE languages have an 'ay' sound, some an 'ee'). But given her name is rooted from the Sanskrit, that particular syllable is an 'ay' sound. But also, it's a matter of the person's linquistic uprbringing, too. Schedule as 'Skedule' or 'Schedule', it's still the same word and boils down to migratory semantics.

Quote:


Again, both Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman were weak in their performances. Christensen just did not have the depth to maintain that role; a few moments spent glowering does not make an "evil" performance.



I agree, I think Hayden wasn't BAD, but he was weak. Had he given it time and skill, it woulda been pulled off.
By far the best roles were Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid (before Windu's sad scene). Obi-Wan's frustration at Anakin while he's immobilized are well done.

I think Samual L. Jackson was given too weak of material (all Lucas's fault); he was shut out from doing the job he coulda done.



IKIYO.
DRE

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Monday, May 23, 2005 8:04 PM

GABRIEL


The movie wasn't too bad, all told, but...


I've heard better dialogue in porn.



___
RIVER: They weren't cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see the sky and they remember what they are.
MAL: Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:37 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.


Grievious wasn't wounded by Shaak Ti...He was wounded by Mace, just as he was boarding his ship...The got away so fast, Mace couldn't use the Force to try and stop them, but he did manage to crush Grievious's ribcage.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:41 AM

FRAY101


Quote:

Originally posted by manwithpez:
Grievious wasn't wounded by Shaak Ti...He was wounded by Mace, just as he was boarding his ship...The got away so fast, Mace couldn't use the Force to try and stop them, but he did manage to crush Grievious's ribcage.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."



Gorram - "finally" saw the film yesterday and thought "Hooray, can finally join in this thread". This was going to be my little pearl of wisdom!

I'm pleased I watched the Clone Wars beforehand so I could pick up on little things but on the other hand, if I hadn't watched them it would have been a surprise when the wheezy robot suddenly whipped out 4 sabres and proved to be quite the match for Obi-Wan.

Agree with Slowdog's comments
Quote:

2. And for that matter... that droid knows *everything*. Works with C3PO for 20 years, says nothing. Carted around w/ Luke & Co. through their adventures, says nothing. Goes to Dagobah- does he not remember what Yoda looks like? Droid has an agenda.

3. So Mace thinks 4 jedi is enough to make sure the human Chancellor gives up his emergency powers when the war ends. What's that? He's a Sith Lord? Meh, 4 should be enough.

.

Ok, so they wiped C3P0's memory but R2 still knew anything PLUS that doesn't explain why Obi Wan didn't recognise them in Ep IV (unless he was just bluffing).

My brother pointed out what a badass Kitt Fisto (sp?) was in the Clone Wars yet he's despatched in seconds by Palpatine - OK, guess they were caught by surprise by how nimble the old guy was. If Mace believed Anakin and knew he was going to confront a Sith LOrd, why didn't he take more back-up?

And another quibble - as Luke was given to Owen & Beru as a baby, why didn't they pretend he was their son. Surely that would have been a better cover? Of course there's also the whole "what do you remember about your real Mother" issue that's referred to above. The whole point of Luke's question that he wanted to know something about HIS mother - not any of the other mother's Leia might have picked up along the way.

But that aside, enjoyed the film - felt a little sad at the start when I realised this was the last time I'd see a Star Wars film in the cinema (you know, for the first time) and a little sad at the end when it was all over (but then I met Robert Rodriguez which cheered me up, but that's a different story...).

I've actually see Hayden Christensen in the theatre but since he was playing a brat can't comment on his acting range on that basis! But must check out Shattered Glass as have heard very good things.

And needless to say, no trailer - Mr & Mrs Smith, Charlie & The Choc Factory & War of the Worlds for the record.


_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."


Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:03 AM

MAJORCLOD


I enjoyed the movie, more than I did the first two, but as far as the original trilogy goes GL was never going to top that.

As for continuity errors, most can be validated with a small explanation.

Some things like Ben saying he hasn't been called Obiwan since before you were born, thats nit picking to the extreme. He says "since oh, before you were born." Its a figure of speech, he's just expressing how long it has been. Not everything that every character says has to be literal.

Ben not recognising R2... Watch the scene, see the expressions Alec Guiness gives the droid. You can see that he knows who R2 is, but he's hiding it from Luke. The whole conversation with Luke at his home, its obvious now that he's bluffing away from his oh so certain point of view.

Leia's memories... I thought it was pretty obvious at the end of ROTS. Padme dies while Obiwan is holding Leia close by, closer than Luke. It is the first thing the baby Leia witnesses, and she cries at the same time Padme passes away. Its been imprinted on her little force sensitive mind. The same deal with Luke's feeling that there is still good in Vader, he gets that from Padme in the exact same scene.

Yoda says in ESB "Through the force things you will see... other places. The future, the past, old friends long gone."

Anakins fall.. this has been building up since EP2, you just have to look. I'm glad GL didn't force it down our throats anymore than he did, there was already plenty there. You have to realise that Palpatine has been manipulating this guy for over ten years, he's been acting as a father figure and building Anakins hopes up so high that he couldn't possibly acheive them. While Obiwan is lecturing Anakin yet again about who knows what, Palpatine is there supporting him and gaining even more trust.

In episode 3 it is revealed that Anakin has confided in Palpatine the events surrounding the death of his mother and the tusken slaughter. The only other person that he has told is Padme, thats got to show how much he must trust this guy.

Everything is there, you just have to look and bridge a few gaps yourself.

Now, I'm not saying it was a perfect movie, there are many things I'd change about the pacing, dialogue etc... The overall story is there, but the execution is somewhat lacking.

Aside from the usual dodgy dialogue, acting, CG, etc, I had two major problems with the film. The first being Padme's losing the will to live. Thats extremely selfish of her considering she is about to give birth to children that she should be protecting. I mean WTF!! Much rather her die at the hands of Anakin, or from some sort of complications of his actions.

Secondly, Padme's character was completely different from the headstrong senator in the second film. She'sturning into this sniveling woman for Anakin to brood over, thats it. I'd imagine this is due to cutting her entire role with the rebellion in the senate.

For me this film has sort of redeemed the prequels and bridged the story together nicely. I wasn't expecting anything much at all, and came out of the cinema satified.

Star Wars is Star Wars, its always going to be corny.

Lucas has always been a great behind the scenes man... He has some excellent stories, and has an awesome talent at visual storytelling. Unfortunately, Star Wars has always been at its best when others are allowed to play with it.





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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:07 AM

RHYMEPHILE


Quote:

Originally posted by DRE:
Quote:

Originally posted by RhymePhile:

First of all, pretty battle sequence in the beginning, but WHY must we always start the new movies as if we're in the middle? I mean, where did Grevious come from? (And we've sunk to a new low: an asthmatic robot??)



The 'Clone Wars' animated series is actually official filler for this. Grievous appears as the 'face' of the Separatist Army while Dooku is its political agenda.
Also, Grievous breathes labouriously because when he takes Palpatine from Coruscant, he is wounded by Shaak Ti pretty badly.




Okay, that's good to know. However, I don't want to have to delve into the myriad books, novelizations, comics, animated series, video games, etc. etc. etc. to understand the final movie. That's what caused me to shy away from the most recent Star Trek films, because there is so much crossover that it becomes mind-boggling and near-incomprehensible to keep track of everything. I want to just be able to go in and see the third movie, which followed the second, without having to do intense research.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I've seen life on this planet, Scully, and that's precisely why I'm looking elsewhere."

-- Fox Mulder, The X-Files

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:28 AM

FRAY101


I wouldn't worry too much about the hundreds of novels/comics out there but would certainly give the Clone Wars a look - plus you can watch them all for free (albeit on a teeny, but beautifully clear screen) at www.starwars.com/clonewars (or something like that).

I agree with Majorclod about Padme's change in character. I have to admit I cry at pretty much every film these days and expected to be sniffling away come her death scene - but nope. Bit of an anti-climax though.

Still not convinced with the Leia explanation. "She died when I was very young" - well yeah, that's the understatement of the century! You can argue that she felt her presence through the Force but that's not the way I interpret that scene in ROTJ.

As for the droids, I didn't see any need for them to be in the prequels at all, let alone have Anakin build 3PO. I was quite upset (more upset than at Padme's death actually) when R4's head got blown off at the beginning of Ep 111 - imagine how moving that could have been if he'd been their full-time companion throughout the prequels!

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."


Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:43 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Was Grievous a droid? He had organic eyes and a heart and various other organic parts, I figured he was just someone who had been severely wounded and, like Vader, became more machine than man. The difference being that he was rebuilt by people who were experts at building battle droids, not prosthetics.

-

Since I am surrounded by people who deal in theories I’ve heard some say that Padme didn’t lose the will to live, that was just what the droids came up with. According to them the real truth is that the Emperor was reaching out through the force to snuff the life out of her.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:48 AM

MONTANAGIRL


Quote:

Originally posted by DRE:
Also, Grievous breathes labouriously because when he takes Palpatine from Coruscant, he is wounded by Shaak Ti pretty badly.


Okay, but WHY does an android BREATHE in the first place?

ETA: Chris posted his thoughts on this while I was typing. Still not sure it makes a whole lot of sense.

"One day, lad, all this will be yours ..."
"What - the curtains?"

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:01 AM

FRAY101


Surely he's a Cyborg not an android...?

I'd assumed he was just a robot until they did that close up on his eyes! And then of course the heart gave it away...

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."


Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:02 PM

DRE


Grievous is a cyborg, he's 5% his original species (I forget what that is offhand..Jeela or something) and 95% mechanical parts (Remember, Obi-Wan shoots him in his very-much alive organs). His organic body was salvaged off a battlefield by the Trade Federation and enhanced with all his toys.



IKIYO.
DRE

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:17 PM

MRSMACK


Ok, actually we've (meaning me and my friends) have long talked about why Luke was on Tatoine and of course why Obi Wan was as well. It has always been my assumption that Luke was stronger than Leia in the force. Therefore he would have stood out more. I'e... They would have felt him from across the Galaxy. By putting ObiWan there, they made sure that, and this is just my opinion, Vader wouldn't come looking. I mean he has already had his but handed to him by ObiWan. He knows where his master was, and I don't think he wants to fight him again.

Second, we wondered if Vader might have lost a bunch of his power, when he lost most of his organic body. Now that he is mostly Cyborg, and burnt to the crisp cyborg at that, we wondered if he just didn't have the same amount of power.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:37 PM

SMITH


This is a quickie, but I have to agree that James Earl Jones' line: "Noooo!" was a little disappointing. When it's such a major moment when said in the original series (obviously coming from Luke), it just seems corny to try and get the same audience reaction the second time round.

"King of Swamp Castle: Listen, Alice...
Prince Herbert: Herbert.
King of Swamp Castle: Herbert..."

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Friday, May 27, 2005 1:32 AM

GAVIDA


Quote:

Originally posted by Slowdog:
Spoiler nation.

2. And for that matter... that droid knows *everything*. Works with C3PO for 20 years, says nothing. Carted around w/ Luke & Co. through their adventures, says nothing. Goes to Dagobah- does he not remember what Yoda looks like? Droid has an agenda.

11. C3PO had his memory wiped and R2 lost most of his gadgets because....?



Well, I can not say I loved the movie, but I do not hate it either. It was an "ok" Popcorn-movie to me. Only had to remind myself not to think "star warsy" too much.

There were many things I didn't like about the movie, some I thought ok and even two or three scenes I loved.

Was I disappointed? No, since I went in with lowered expectations anyway.
Was I statisfied? Uhm.... yes and no. Statisfied in that it was a nice entertainment, not satisfied in a "Star-Wars-Fan-way"

But I would like to give you my view for an answer to point 11 of your list:

3PO's mind was wiped because everyone knew that he can't keep his mouth shut. And since he knew about the twins the only way to close that probable security leak was to wipe his memory.

Why did R2 lose most of his cool gadgets? Well, look at your point 2 on the list. You were not the only one to realize that the Droid has an Agenda and therefore they removed the stuff to prevent him from becoming all too powerful (this explanation is not to be taken serious )

See ya,
Gavida

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Friday, May 27, 2005 1:57 AM

FRAY101


Just a quick comment about the Leia thing - if you read the Making of Book, when it gets to the part where Padme holds Leia up to her, it specifically states that this is the smile Leia remembers when she's talking to Luke.

And no, I'm still not convinced by that argument.

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."


Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Friday, May 27, 2005 8:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Slowdog:


It was probably the best of the new trilogy, but that's like talking about Badger's nicest suit...


That is one of the funniest lines I've ever read at this site.
Bravo!
Well put.
I need a tissue, I'm cryin' from this.


Ha ha ha ha ha Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 28, 2005 12:23 PM

THIEFJEHAT


Revenge of the Sith. Man what can I say that hasn't been said in the 40-some posts above me?

I agree the film was better than episodes I & II. Does that make it good? No way. Not even close. Somebody above on this thread correctly compared "Sith" to the best suit Badger owns. How very true.

I personally believe that the worst part of this film (from a storytellers angle) was in the development of the reasons Anakin turned to the dark side. They just don't make good sense at all. This film should have protrayed the ideal that Anakin felt held back by his mentor. Anakin knew he was powerful, he felt it in his bones. To stand there and listen to the Council refuse to give him the rank of master AND know that the decision was reached unanimously AND that Obi-Wan is now a master and had voted...that should have stung his ego and pushed him to Sideous.

But instead we got the "fear of loss" arc. Frankly, it's not nearly as strong. And the constant remorse we see in Anakin during the film makes the eventual turning less and less believeable. The worst interuption of tempo comes in the scene when Anakin actually APOLOGIZES to Obi-Wan and seeks humility...which is NOT a Sith trait.

Here's the better Story arc that Lucas ignored:
1. Establish in an eariler episode that Anakin feels held back (Lucas did this)
2. In "Sith", bring Anakin's ego to the surface, allow us to see that he is furious at Obi-Wan for being one of the council members insulting him by not granting him the master status. (This did not happen) Anakin needs to feel berayed and want revenge.
3. Slowly allow the Chancellor to get in Anakin's mind and pervert his perception of events. The dark side is a path to the manupliation of the thoughts of others. Sideous uses this to his advantage by using his political power to place Anakin in situations where he'll be slighted by the Jedi then uses Sith powers to subvert Anakins view of things.
4. THE IMPORTANT SCENE: Sideous reveals himself to Anakin. The full blown temptation happens. Not "To save Padme'" but "To see the true meaning of the force and become strong" which in itself is an echo of things to come. Vader to Luke: "The Emperor will show you the true meaning of the force. He is your master now" Sure you can throw in the Padme' arc, but the main reason Anakin turns should be over forbidden knowledge. Have Anakin ignite his saber. It's the last vestage of his light side. Then when he succumbs to temptation and his percieved anger at the Jedi he turns it off. Have Anakin declare: "Show me the true meaning of the Force......Master" Scene cut.
5. Anakin waits until the Jedi have fanned out to fight the various battles across the galaxy and only Mace and a couple others are left (like in the film). Anakin reveals the nature of Sideous to Mace (also in the film) when mace stomps off to arrest the chancellor Anakin gives the camera the "evil-eye" look of a betrayal. He flips on a mini holo-projector and tells the holo-sideous that the Jedi are coming as planned.
6. Mace arrives to arrest Palpitine. The start of this sequence should be as shown in the film. When Sideous ignites his saber this is when Anakin appears from behind a Jedi (not mace), places his unlit saber into this poor jedi's back, and reveals his betrayal by igniting his saber through the back of this poor fellow (and thus killing him). Anakin and Sedious defeat the remaining 2 jedi but not Mace because he is too powerful a warrior. Somewhere in here Mace knocks Anakin out of the fight. Mace begins then to defeat Sedious. We should, at this point, add the force lightning part, thus wasting Sideous into a weaker form when Mace turns the dark power back on his foe. But before Mace can kill the Sith lord Anakin gets back into the battle by chopping off Maces hands like in the film. Mace dies. Darth Vader is born in that moment and Sedious anoints the new Sith lord.
7. The final battle twixt Obi-Wan and Vader is fought basically the same but for differing reasons. Vader's hatred of his mentor should be front and center. He was the learner before but NOW he has been exposed to true power. Vader should express how twisted his view of things have become now that he has turned. One of the worst lines of the film was delivered in this sequence. Obi-Wan: "Sideous is evil" Vader: "From my point of view the Jedi are evil". Ugg.. how awful that came off. I cringed each time I heard it, because Lucas had not properly developed the "Why" behind the perception that Jedi are evil. Everything was always centered around "Fear of Loss" and "I must save Padme'" This whole sequence should have been centered around Vader's hatred at his former master for holding him back, and the precieved insults and humiliation from the council of which Obi-Wan is a part. This is about REVENGE...duh...just like the title declares.

But finally..FINALLY..I saw a scene that was properly done. This was of course Vader lying there at the end...1 arm and 2 legs cut off....screaming "I HATE YOU!!!!" at Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan's expression of grief. That, at least, was done right.

Everyone else on this thread has good points. The acting was wooden. We never felt tied to the characters. We never believed that Anakin and Obi-Wan were in jeopardy in the space battle at the tales outset. But I feel that the greatest sin in this film exists at the core of the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship and how Lucas did not properly establish reasons for turning to the dark side.

I own episodes IV, V, & VI. I own them in their orginal, un-lucas-violated forms. I will never own I, II, & III. As far as I'm concerned, we were better off in 1998 with an incomplete tale.

Serenity will be the Sci-Fi film of 2005. The Lucasfilm sagas are dead.



Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony.

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Saturday, May 28, 2005 4:21 PM

GREENFAERIE


Bah. I bought it all hook line and sinker. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I really felt Anakin's loss at his realization that he would not be able to save Padme if he let Sidious be arrested by the council. I was willing to ignore minor plot points in favor of the emotion presented. It worked for me.


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Saturday, May 28, 2005 7:20 PM

PATMAN


Some ramblings on the topic from me (if you've read this far into the thread, you will have encountered spoilers along the way, this post is no exception):

Here's how I'd handle Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, but just some more nitpicks before the turn:

While I realize Lucas wanted to put the pressure of the dreams to heightened the desperation level of Anakin, and to cling to Palpy's claim of being able to help with the situation, but if you were Anakin, wouldn't you want proof of such a claim before changing your allegiances on basically a hope and prayer? Lucas hinges the turning of Anakin on a time-element decision, in order to dupe him into making the only decision that makes sense to Anakin (the outcome paramount to Anakin is saving Padme from dying during childbirth).

Also, regarding how far along Padme is, I have a problem with the timeline of this film. Things happen from planet to planet, with little regard to the time it takes to get from planet to planet, and are we to just assume that getting to all the locations in the film takes a few hours at most? Seems to be, if there are long stretches of time involved, cooler heads should prevail in weighing the options. But Lucas structured his screenplay so that it seems like characters can get from one planet to another in the blink of an eye, which gives off that sense of urgency, but it doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny.

Was Padme 6 months along at the start of the film, and then 2 months pass by the time she decides to hop in her starcruiser to find Anakin on Mustafar? I have a hard time believing that planet was just around the corner from Coruscant. Wasn't it out in the outer rim? And yet, Padme claims that Anakin left Coruscant, and in a day, he was on Mustafar, wiping out the Federation leadership. For dramatic purposes, I suppose you have to give the geography a pass, but I have a hard time doing so.

How to get Anakin to turn without it seeming rushed and oh-so-arbitrary (as in "well, because he's suppose to turn bad, because it said so in the Original Trilogy, episodes 4-6"):

Padme said that Anakin would be expelled from the Jedi order if they found out that he had married her (Padme). Having Anakin, who is Chancellor Palpatine's favorite Jedi, getting too close to the political aspect via his friendship with Palpatine, and armed with the information that Anakin and Padme are married, have OB1 use this information to have the Jedi Council to confront Anakin with the situation as the issue of Anakin's entry into the Jedi Council becomes a thorny mess, and Anakin becoming a master is undermined by his marriage to Padme. To fix the situation, have the Jedi Council force Anakin to choose between Padme and the Jedi Order. Given Anakin's penchant for possessive love, Anakin spurns the Jedi order for attachment to Padme, it makes some sort of sense given his background. It creates animosity between Anakin and OB1 since OB1 ratted him out too, which sets up more dramatics based on the choices made by Anakin and OB1 in the lava duel later on.

You could incorporate his fears of Padme dying in childbirth, but if you bring in the rebuke by the Jedi Council earlier, and he chose to turn away from them, then you can lay the foundation for him to go train to be a dark lord of the sith as he seeks out Palpy to become his full-time apprentice (where else does Anakin have to go if the Jedi boot him out?), while keeping Palpy around as Chancellor, and then Anakin comes back later to wipe out the Jedi order with a plan of his own accord as he hunted them down one by one if he had to, while also incorporating Order 66 for the Clonetroopers to join in the fun, as his payment to Sidious for saving Padme.

In this scenario, Anakin is fully aware of the price he pays to keep the woman he loves alive. It's not a choice driven by circumstance, but a choice driven by the seduction of power of the dark side. Plus, it would lend more credence to what Ben tells Luke in ANH without making Ben out to be a big fat liar in order to manipulate Luke to a larger extent.

And one more thing, in this scenario, Padme does survive childbirth (hey, maybe Sidious isn't talking out of his butt), but is sickened by Anakin's turn to the dark side, and she runs away (before the children are born) because she fears what Anakin's influence would be on them. She takes the twins, finally finds Yoda and OB1 in remote areas of the galaxy, using her political contacts to find them, convinces them that they need shelter, she hands Luke over to OB1 to be raised by the Lars on Tatooine, and along the way, OB1 drops off Yoda on Dagobah, cut to a quick shot of baby Luke looking all around at the swampiness before OB1 and Luke go towards Tatooine. And then Padme escapes to the Alderaan system, enlists the aid of Bail Organa to live surreptiously under the radar, lives for a few years, raising Leia, but overall sad, helps with the start of the Rebel Alliance with Mon Mothma (i.e. giving Padme something else to do besides becoming an incubator for Luke and Leia), but eventually dies of a broken heart within 5 years as news of Darth Vader's quest to eradicate the Jedi becomes more and more of a reality.

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Saturday, May 28, 2005 9:01 PM

HOBBES


I liked it.

Although as mentioned it could have improved in about a million ways, and eps I and II even more so. But hey, I think pretty much everybody knows how bad a writer and director Lucas really is now so there's that

Honestly I've always though that Lucas should just have taken Zahn's original Star Wars series (Heirs to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) and used those to make episodes 7-9. Those were the best Star Wars books IMHO and would have made awesome movies.

Just leave I-III out, IV-VI worked fine without the backstory filled in more then it was.

-----
...What I am discussing is whether one should make what is likely to be the case and is reasonably impossible in order to circumvent what could hypothetically done but is highly improbable in practice from happening because that would be unrealistic.

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