OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

MAJOR SPOILERS, but I had to say something....

POSTED BY: BASSGRAVI
UPDATED: Monday, June 27, 2005 23:11
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 15007
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Thursday, June 23, 2005 8:14 PM

BASSGRAVI


Ok...if perhaps you managed to miss the spoilers part, here's your warning: I will ruin the entire movie for you if you read this one thing....
If you've seen the screening, you're safe. If not, then just don't read the rest. Really, just don't. Don't do it. It won't be fun.
In fact, you'll have to highlight the text(if I do it right...), just in case you didn't figure out until just now that I'm going to talk about the screening!!!
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Select to view spoiler:



Book, I understand...really, I do, I don't like it, but I get it.
But WASH?!?!? I get the how I just don't get the why. WTF!?! Without Wash the movie becomes very, very not happy. Zoe's little slinky dress escapade doesn't make up for it, either. Not at all. I'd lose the dress, and keep the husband. It's not fair, it's not cool, it makes the movie sad, it happens at a very bad moment...or a good moment that is made bad by Wash's demise, and *it doesn't make any sense*. At least not to me. I cried. Not gonna lie to you folks...I got in line about four and a half hours early, I sang Happy Birthday to Joss and signed a banner, I sang the Ballad of Serenity, I sang the Hero of Canton thing, and even did it on tape, I dressed up like Kaylee and had my picture taken with two other Kaylees...and the movie was great, but that one thing....just now right. Nope. No excuses...it was just wrong. It was beyond morbid and creepifying and just plain, flat-out wrong. I kept hoping that there would be some miraculous recovery, I mean, it looked like everyone else was going to bite it towards the end anyway...but when the movie was over and we realized there were no end credits...I just sat there with the bf and cried...'cause of Wash. It's not right, I tell you. I'd be angry if I wasn't all sad....


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Thursday, June 23, 2005 8:42 PM

SERGEANTX


responding to spoilers

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But you all but explained to yourself the 'why' of it. You thought that all them might just get it after Wash went. That's why. Especially for those of us who've seen all the episodes several times. We've come to think of them as static.

Offing Book was expected. We all had a feeling someone was going to get it and that let us off the hook. I didn't see the Wash thing coming and it completely kept me on edge for the last part of the movie. It made me believe that Simon was going to get it too.




SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:31 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


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Because someone had to or the jeopardy is meaningless. Because awful, meaningless things happen in war and we lose the ones we love. Because we loved him and, to quote another SF franchise, this time we have paid for the party with our dearest blood.

I am with you that I almost couldn't enjoy the third act after that; it just overwhelmed me for the rest of the movie. But, well I won't say it hurts less now, or that it's less shocking, but I know why it had to happen.

The first death was a sacrifice which moved the plot forward. The second was to show us that, much as we love these people, any one of them could die and the danger is real. And that, no matter what happens to you, you can keep flying.



History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:36 PM

DRAGONFLYDIRECTOR


And that, no matter what happens to you, you can keep flying.

Amen, Brother BaggyTrousers...

"Observe Analyze & Respond"
Motto of the A.P.E.s
Alliance Protean Engineers


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Friday, June 24, 2005 12:41 AM

RIVERBIRCH


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I'm still very upset about Wash as well. I would have prefered that Simon died instead. We never did even learn who Book really was, either.



riverbirch

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Friday, June 24, 2005 12:44 AM

RIVERBIRCH


Also I'm a little curious as to why they did not bring in 'two by two hands of blue' cause that was rockin in the tv show.

riverbirch

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Friday, June 24, 2005 1:35 AM

AMYEL


What I got from it was that Book was an operative. He lost his faith in the Alliance (like The Op did at the end) and found religion.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 2:09 AM

RANGRBOB


This was a big thing for many people, some have turned their backs on Firefly and Joss for it. It took me the better part of a week to come to terms with the loss. I didn't even go to any of the fan sites for a couple days. I understand the loss now and why it was writen into the movie, and I have to agree it did its job. I will never get over it but I do understand.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 2:18 AM

SPARTAN


I m with you all on this subject, it startled me to no end, but if you watch any other Joss show ( Angel, Buffy) you will find that what Joss did was what he normally does- the unexpected. Its his style, and while it may not be the most applauded ( I saw several girls after the end cursing his name ) It's his style and he ALWAYS redeems himself later on, fear not browncoats, the best is yet to come




http://www.bluegrassbrowncoats.net ! The homebase of Kentuckiana FireFly fans!
"aint we just"?

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Friday, June 24, 2005 2:49 AM

FLYINFREE


Quote:

Originally posted by Spartan:
fear not browncoats, the best is yet to come


I wish I could believe that but everything about the movie to me screams THE END. The deaths of 2 main characters, every plot and storyline wrapped up, everything explained (with the exception of Book but with his death becomes meaningless). I waited and prayed and obsessed about the idea of a Firefly movie with the hope that it would bring back the only show I ever loved. I went to the screening needing to come out with a sense of excitement and hope for the future of Firefly and all I felt was empty. Don't confuse my intent here, Serenity was probably the greatest piece of film-making I will ever see. I have never been so moved and enthralled in my life. But all I felt after it was over was lost and empty. Even now, the next day, I'm just wandering around in a haze of depression. My family is gone and they left in a blaze of glory.

"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:13 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyinFree:
Quote:

Originally posted by Spartan:
fear not browncoats, the best is yet to come


I wish I could believe that but everything about the movie to me screams THE END. The deaths of 2 main characters, every plot and storyline wrapped up, everything explained (with the exception of Book but with his death becomes meaningless).



Well, we still don't know what the Alliance did to River in the first place, or why. That has never been explained.

______________________

Soul, Security Chief of the Sereni-Tree

Mantichorus: "So is there a reason they call you 'Soul'?"
Soul (after a long pause): "Yeah. Because I have one."

http://havenofsouls.blogspot.com/

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:16 AM

LISSA


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyinFree:
Quote:

Originally posted by Spartan:
fear not browncoats, the best is yet to come


I wish I could believe that but everything about the movie to me screams THE END.



you never really watched buffy or angel, did you?
in all likelyhood...this is just the beginning of whatever story it is that joss is going to tell us.

~lissa, spwhore

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:19 AM

FLYINFREE


Quote:

Originally posted by SoulOfSerenity:
Well, we still don't know what the Alliance did to River in the first place, or why. That has never been explained.


Actually they did, it was a bioweapon project, turning people into weapons.

"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:23 AM

FLYINFREE


Quote:

Originally posted by lissa:
you never really watched buffy or angel, did you?
in all likelyhood...this is just the beginning of whatever story it is that joss is going to tell us.

I've seen every episode of Buffy, Angel and Firefly. The movie was just like the finale of Buffy and Angel, more than one main character died and all the plot lines were tied up. Joss did this movie for closure, both for the fans and for himself, he got to tell his story the way he wanted. For that I'm grateful, but I still hate that it's over.

"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:25 AM

SOULOFSERENITY

The Man They Call Soul...


If you know Joss, this is NOT the end.

Mal & Inara: what will happen between the two of them. We saw the begining of what could possibly be between them, but we still don't know.

River: What will happen with her now? She is a weapon, and I doubt that the Alliance will just let her be.

Zoe: Wash is dead. How will she live with that? How will she change to deal with his death?

Book: Flashback backstory time!!!

What about Niska? YoSafBridge? Badger? The Second War For Independance?

There's plenty more story to tell. It's not over yet.

Remember your sig...

______________________

Soul, Security Chief of the Sereni-Tree

Mantichorus: "So is there a reason they call you 'Soul'?"
Soul (after a long pause): "Yeah. Because I have one."

http://havenofsouls.blogspot.com/

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:45 AM

AMYEL


Zoe: The one thing that has never faultered in her entire adult life is her trust and loyalty in Mal. Once Wash died, she put everything she had into the belief that Mal would get the job done. She clearly didn't care if she died--she just wanted Mal to get the signal out. Now that the mission is over, is her faith Mal going to fade? Certainly, her feelings on her chosen profession are going to change. Her job both found and lost her husband. Will she blame Mal for that? Zoe is a soldier with very thick skin. Her emotions were projected onto Wash. He was like her mirror image. Will she become more outwardly badass and hardened to bottle up her feelings, or will she completely lose it?

Book: It takes a lot of effort and energy to hide a secret past. Now that he's dead, who's protecting his secrets? If you've ever had a family member or friend die, and you go to their house to clean out their stuff... you can find some really interesting things boxed up in the attic.

Nothing ever truly ends. It just changes form. ;)

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Friday, June 24, 2005 4:13 AM

MIKEYMO


I just saw the screening last night, and I'm still processing it. Still, this didn't scream THE END at me. Of course, it could be the end, but Joss left a bunch of stuff on the table and frankly, you know he has a hundred other stories to tell about this crew.

Personally, I want to see Inara's story and what the hell was in that syringe!!

Select to view spoiler:


R.I.P. Hoban Washburn - Curse your sudden but inevitable death!



"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Friday, June 24, 2005 4:14 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS


Quote:

Originally posted by FlyinFree:
Quote:

Originally posted by Spartan:
fear not browncoats, the best is yet to come


I wish I could believe that but everything about the movie to me screams THE END. The deaths of 2 main characters, every plot and storyline wrapped up, everything explained (with the exception of Book but with his death becomes meaningless)...



Like Amyel, I think we did find out Book's story, just indirectly. I think Book was once an operative; high-level Alliance with clearance to go anywhere, a vast military knowlege, and someone who was a believer. When Book talks to Mal about what The Operative is going to do, it's clear he knows this man, or at least, knows the type very, very well. And I think The Operative is likely going to find something new and better to believe, as Book did. (As Mal did too.)

Don't say Book's death was meaningless though; I was very sad to see it happen too, but it gave the crew the resolve they needed to find Miranda and from there try to set right what happened there. If what I believe about Book is correct, it might have corrected something he himself had a part in and which lived the rest of his life trying to atone for.

There's more story out there. It's a mighty big 'verse and these are still some Big Damn Heroes.

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Friday, June 24, 2005 5:06 AM

BASSGRAVI


I don't think it was really THE END, either...but on the other hand...some things make me feel like it might have to be THE END whether we like it or not...we'll see...and...more spoilers for the sake of me getting to rant and such...(here's hoping I get the spoiler text thingy right again....)











Select to view spoiler:


Well, while I understand the angles you guys are getting at, and I see the typical Joss thing, it still bugs me...I mean...why does Joss get to stay typical when the soul of Firefly/Serenity is because it's something completely different. Also...I don't think Wash needed to die for the credibility of eveyone else's mortal danger. I'm feelin' the mortal danger. Really, I am. I don't think it makes it any more or less convincing, just sad. As for being surprising and unexpected, yeah, in a way it is, but you still know that not everyone is going to die for numerous reasons, mainly because if everyone dies there's no story to tell. I think the story would be just as good, and be a lot better in the end if we *thought* Wash was dead for a good long while and then managed to get a somewhat damaged Wash back...just as much as Kaylee, Wash is part of Serenity...imho, Kaylee and Wash are the heart and soul of the ship, maybe even the whole crew, and with Mal's rougher attitude in the movie they may just be Mal's heart and conscience.
I can see Book in a way, it's a big loss and the fact is that Book's secrets and mysteries add something to the story in that we don't know them, so it may be best to keep them under wraps a while longer and in Book's death find out more...
But Wash? Little cute, harmless, funny Wash who had (in my opinion) no reason to die?
I just can't accept the senseless loss theory...that was Book, and everyone else who had sheltered the crew, that was Mr.Universe, and the little kid that Kaylee knew. That was the people who weren't made into Reavers and probably more that I can't come up with off the top of my head.
Now, it's a great movie, really, it is. I can't really nitpick another person's dreams and this is Joss' baby, but I can't help but just wanting to walk around all day like "Why Wash?"
I understand to a point how y'all explain it, but I respectfully disagree. I see plenty of that from the rest of the movie and I can't just let that be it.
But then, if we were the types to just let things be, we wouldn't have ever gotten the movie...
Anyhoo...it *was* a great movie...but I think I'm going to have to warm up to it without Wash...
I understand that anything else I have litte issues with (because I just pick at *everything*) is because it's a movie, it's a movie for us browncoats, but then it's a movie that had to work out for people who've never seen Firefly, and it's a movie that has to make money because I don't think Universal was making it out of the warm fuzzy goodness of their little hearts.
Anyhoo...feel free to argue with me...it's just my opinion...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


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Friday, June 24, 2005 5:07 AM

BLACKDOVE


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Wash's death didn't bother me as much as I thought. It was meant to be shocking and horrific, and show just how dire the situation is for our crew. Anyone can die at any moment, and there are some very real consequences.

My only complaint is the way that none of the crew seemed the slightest bit phased by it. Zoe in particular showed almost no emotion whatsoever that her husband of the last several years was now gone forever. She was cold in a robotic sense. While her thirst for vengeance made the final action piece exciting, there was no emotional payoff at the end. I would have prefered at least one quick shot of Zoe breaking down after everything was over or at Wash's grave, just give us something that shows us her feelings of loss. If Joss filmed anything like this, I hope he gets smart and puts it back in the movie. We need to experience some form of closure for these two characters.



"What y'all order a dead guy for?" - Jayne Cobb

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Friday, June 24, 2005 5:38 AM

OPUS


Having not seen the movie but read all the spoilers may I suggest an alternative explanation for why what was done, was done?
Did anyone consider the thespian in question possibly didn't want to be an on going part of the franchise? Joss merely integrated it into the story.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 5:42 AM

FLYINGTAMS


Yeah, for a brief moment in time I had considered if I should consider myself a "Joss fan" - but when I had that, that sealed it: I'm not, and never will be.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 5:44 AM

MALI


Quote:

Originally posted by BlackDove:

Select to view spoiler:


Zoe in particular showed almost no emotion whatsoever that her husband of the last several years was now gone forever. She was cold in a robotic sense.





Must disagree.

Select to view spoiler:


Her character is an experienced soldier, and she was still trying to unpin a clearly-dead man from his chair until Mal pulled her off. Then she kicked into warrior mode ("you ever been with a warrior woman?"). To me, one of the best issues left hanging is how she deals with Mal, and the inevitable conflict/blamegame they're going to have (ala the complex relationship between the three in the torture episode). I hated losing Wash too--just went to my second preview and was fervently hoping they'd change that part, but alas they did not--but I'm sure Joss will use the death to make the Whedonverse deeper and more complex.



~ Soupcatcher is a hottie ~

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:42 AM

TRALALAH


I've got a theory...

Select to view spoiler:


I know it's far fetched not even remotely true but I'm using this as a balm for my poor battered heart. We all know how Joss hates spoilers, right? Well what would be the ultimate revenge? I'm thinking it would be having a traumatic event such as Wash’s death and then having it NOT be in the final version. Ha-Ha take that! I imagine him saying. Oh well, I know this is just denial speaking. I do think I wouldn't have such a problem with it if we saw just a little more of Zoe being effected. Her panic was great but I think there should have been just a little more of a struggle with Mal and then she clicks into warrior mode. I don’t think she should break down after that because she is a warrior and she is strong. Overall it was such a kick ass movie!! I was proud of Joss he did such a good job!



A swhat?

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:58 AM

MIKEYMO


There's one thing that really saddens me...

Select to view spoiler:



that being the fact that Alan won't be participating in the next movie(s) - the family aspect of Serenity's crew was one of the best parts of the show, but what really made that the case was that you could feel it was true of the actors as well. And I just don't like the idea of everyone making another movie and Alan not being there. Ron as well, but Alan was so integral that his absense (perhaps more than his character's) would realy depress me.

Perhaps in flashbacks - more Alan with a mustache!!



"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Friday, June 24, 2005 9:44 AM

FLECHETTE



Have to disagree about..

Select to view spoiler:


Zoe being un-emotional - Her pulling at Wash saying "Baby we have to go" .... her voice sounds so desperate. Later Kaylee asks "What about Wash?" beat of silence "Wash ain't coming" and Zoe doesn't look up.

right there - Zoe who can face anything - any horror - can't look at her family as she tell them Wash is gone. My heart broke for her.


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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:15 AM

CALLMESERENITY


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I feel like I want to send out sympathy cards out to the cast, and especially to Alan. I am devastated that Wash is dead. I was so upset that my two favourite characters were both killed in the same movie! It's just too much. I don't want it to be real. And seeing Simon and Kaylee finally get together was not enough to make up for losing Wash. I agree with whoever said that the family is broken and it makes me wonder how the dynamics will be in the next movies. (Zoe better be pregnant in the sequel!!!) This is why I love/hate Joss. He gives you something wonderful, and then he snatches it away, but he does it in this completely genius, unexpected way. See? I'm too upset to be coherent. I could use a hug.



"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:19 AM

ZNACHKI


Quote:

Originally posted by Opus:
Having not seen the movie but read all the spoilers may I suggest an alternative explanation for why what was done, was done?
Did anyone consider the thespian in question possibly didn't want to be an on going part of the franchise? Joss merely integrated it into the story.



The actor in question did not ask to be written out. In fact, when everyone read their scripts, they were all wondering how the actor was going to take it, and no one wanted to call them.

This is from the various remarks made at the 5/5 and 5/23 screenings. (Including the actor in question)

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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:23 AM

ZNACHKI


Quote:

Originally posted by MikeyMo:
There's one thing that really saddens me...

Select to view spoiler:



that being the fact that Alan won't be participating in the next movie(s) - the family aspect of Serenity's crew was one of the best parts of the show, but what really made that the case was that you could feel it was true of the actors as well. And I just don't like the idea of everyone making another movie and Alan not being there. Ron as well, but Alan was so integral that his absense (perhaps more than his character's) would realy depress me.

Perhaps in flashbacks - more Alan with a mustache!!




Well as one actor said:

Prequel, flashback, hologram

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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:29 AM

WHOISRIVER


SERENITY is NOT a book note to the verse.

It is the first attempt to start a trilogy of films, for one thing.

TheInside.org - Firefly Producers NEW TV series

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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:29 AM

FLECHETTE


{hug CallMeSerenity hug}

This is one of the few cases where I'm glad I was spoilered over movie plot points - knowing what was coming let me see it thru differnt eyes and I had gone thru the grieving process already.

I could appreciate just how brillantly it was handled and even knowing all that had been lost were done with - I was still on pins and needles over the rest of the cast.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 11:33 AM

AXEMINISTER


My boyfriend and I saw the movie last night. He's watched Firefly from the beginning and turned me on to it with the DVDs. We've both waited a LONG time for the movie, so it was disappointing to come away from the screening without the same sense of excitement that we went into it with.

Both of us agreed that the end of the movie was ruined by Wash's death, which came across as a cheap plot device rather than a necessary element to the film. This has been a character driven series from the beginning. If I wanted to see an action flick I'd rent any number of films being churned out by Hollywood, but what we all fell in love with, and what has made us so loyal to this show, was the characters. Killing off Wash felt like a slap in the face to the fans who enabled this show to make it this far.

From a practical standpoint, it will make the difference between whether I see this movie once in the theaters or ten times. Who wants to watch someone they love get killed over and over again? I think Joss needs his fans if the movie is going to make it and we deserved the payoff. We browncoats deserved to walk out of the theater feeling victorious and with Wash dead that victory was entirely diluted. Who cares that Kaylee has sex after that? Poor choices from an otherwise masterful storyteller.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 12:06 PM

SONG


My take, as a freshly-converted newbie fan:

Select to view spoiler:


Hugs all around, my friends. It's a shock. Book was my favorite stand-alone character (I'm a real sucker for any depiction of real spirituality in mass-market entertainment). And the Wash/Zoe marriage was at the top of my list of favorite elements in the series. A marriage where the guy is kind of a wuss, the wife is taller (or filmed that way, anyway), and yet this isn't the focus or definition of the relationship? Wow. A marriage where the couple actually has sex and argues and fully inhabits the relationship? This is such a rarity in TV shows/movies, where marriage is the end of the story and never the story.

My heart is breaking for Zoe. She came through the same horrors Mal did during the war, and yet was intact enough to risk real love, and the kind of commitment that requires risk, a faith in a future worth sticking around for. And she proved many times during the series that protecting and loving Wash was her first priority, always. She cannot but feel not only bereaved, but that she failed. She is strong, but she cannot possibly ever be really okay after this.

I hear everyone hoping she is pregnant, but I gottta say, that's awfully fan-fic-ish. Wash is dead. Dead means dead. Dead means it's final, it's over, nothing will make it be less final or somehow okay in the end. Her having a baby, if it were treated as the magic-pill antidote to her grief, rather than as a whole new set of interesting, character-changing experiences, would be kind of ... plastic, somehow.

What this is all evoking for me, somehow, is the Buffy episode where her mom dies suddenly. I'm not a huge Buffy fan and haven't seen every episode, but that one episode is what made me first sit up and take notice of Joss Whedon. His treatment of death, and the way people really experience the death of a loved one, rang incredibly true for me. And knowing that he could do that in a show, that he could take his audience through something so anti-Disney, anti-Star Trek, anti-saccharin formulaic feel-good cliche, helps me to understand why he is asking us all to move into a 'verse where Wash -- harmless, funny, gifted, beloved Wash -- is gone, for no good reason.

That is life; that's the way death happens in real life. I suspect folks who have gone through this in their own lives know this without me saying it, while those who have not, won't understand until, G-d forbid, their own lives lead them through that door.


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Friday, June 24, 2005 12:21 PM

SONG


Quote:

Originally posted by BlackDove:

Select to view spoiler:


Zoe in particular showed almost no emotion whatsoever that her husband of the last several years was now gone forever. She was cold in a robotic sense. ... I would have prefered at least one quick shot of Zoe breaking down after everything was over or at Wash's grave, just give us something that shows us her feelings of loss.






I also disagree vehemently with this.

Select to view spoiler:


I felt her grief was immediately and desperately palpable, through the entire Reaver battle sequence. And Joss did give us a scene that showed her feelings of loss, with the exchange between Mal and Zoe that, surprisingly, no one has mentioned in this thread.

They've held the funerals, they've repaired the ship. Mal asks Zoe, "Is she going to hold together?" and Zoe replies, "It's shaky, but she'll fly" (or words to that effect). The camerawork and the actors' delivery make it perfectly clear that both characters are talking about Zoe in her bereavement; she is deeply shaken, but she is moving forward. I think this is totally in character, and that a scene with Zoe weeping with her friends would have been artificial. And a scene of her weeping alone would have been almost pornographic.

Maybe I'm just sensitive that way. Earlier in the film, the brief glimpse of Malcolm's grief for Book almost undid me.


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Friday, June 24, 2005 12:54 PM

GAMBIT3


Quote:


They've held the funerals, they've repaired the ship. Mal asks Zoe, "Is she going to hold together?" and Zoe replies, "It's shaky, but she'll fly" (or words to that effect). The camerawork and the actors' delivery make it perfectly clear that both characters are talking about Zoe in her bereavement;



To quote you: I vehemently disagree. I never saw this scene as referring to Zoe. Much less as "perfectly clear" that they were talking about Zoe. Not even clear. Not even nebulously so. Plus, from all the people I've talked to, I haven't talked to anyone that has seen it that way.

Quote:


And a scene of her weeping alone would have been almost pornographic.



Come again? How would a scene of a widow crying for her husband be considered porno? I fail to see this completely.


__________________________
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Friday, June 24, 2005 1:08 PM

SIMONWHO


The "She'll hold together" scene is so obviously about Zoe that it's almost beyond subtext into just text. It's not even vaguely subtle.

The fact is, I watched the last fifteen minutes thinking "Surely Joss isn't crazy enough to kill off everybody, is he? Surely no more will die?" And yet the answer came "He just killed the nicest, most liked character, the one who was closest to being a self-portrait. He might."

That's why I feel bad for those who have been spoiled. Not just that they have the surprise of Wash's death spoiled for them (Book, given that he is a) old, b) religious, c) a repentant sinner and d) black, has had deadmeat stamped all over him since the pilot) but also that nobody else is going to die. Someone complained that they didn't want a generic action movie. If Wash hadn't died, that's what it would have been. Instead there's this huge emotional jolt. What it means at the box office, I don't know. But it is a better movie for taking that chance, of that I'm certain.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 1:39 PM

TDTMF



-----------------------------------
Both of us agreed that the end of the movie was ruined by Wash's death, which came across as a cheap plot device rather than a necessary element to the film. This has been a character driven series from the beginning. If I wanted to see an action flick I'd rent any number of films being churned out by Hollywood, but what we all fell in love with, and what has made us so loyal to this show, was the characters. Killing off Wash felt like a slap in the face to the fans who enabled this show to make it this far.

From a practical standpoint, it will make the difference between whether I see this movie once in the theaters or ten times. Who wants to watch someone they love get killed over and over again? I think Joss needs his fans if the movie is going to make it and we deserved the payoff. We browncoats deserved to walk out of the theater feeling victorious and with Wash dead that victory was entirely diluted. Who cares that Kaylee has sex after that? Poor choices from an otherwise masterful storyteller.

--------------------------------

that sums up my feeling exactly

td


mal to jayne: well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle

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Friday, June 24, 2005 2:00 PM

SIMONWHO


How did Wash's death affect the plot? If it didn't then it couldn't have been a plot device.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 3:00 PM

RKLENSETH


What you all are missing...

Select to view spoiler:


Wash was the sacrifice. One of the deeper themes in the movie was sacrifice and freedom. Mal knew that they couldn't resist the Alliance without losing someone. In fact they could have lost everyone but they had to take the chance or everything would be lost. With Book's death, Mal found his faith and beliefs that he had lost at Serenity Valley and the resolve to do what he believed right: Getting the signal out. Wash was in the end the sacrifice that of Mal's cause. Ever heard the phrase that freedom isn't free.

Plus this opens up so much more plots. Zoe after Wash. Zoe and Mal's relationship. Plus there wasn't anything left with Wash's character. We knew everything about him and his relationship with Zoe. His death now changes all of that. Now there is more story to tell.



Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 4:13 PM

FLYINGTAMS


Yeah opens up crap plots. I wanted something light and funny - more of the series. This sounds bad. If he's lucky I'll see it once, but I strongly suspect never again.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 4:22 PM

THUNDAR


Jeez.. The very best fiction, especially science fiction, is the kind that make the characters seem as real to you as your friends. I have no one favorite character.. Well, aside from my lust for Morena This is not the Star Trek universe where only the Red shirts die. These characters are our friends. It hurts when a friend dies but as everyone well knows, it happens. I Loved the BDM and I will watch it again when it's released in Sept. I will also buy the DVD.

The Mal and Zoe conversation was most clearly about her. It fit Mal's character perfectly to ask about her in that manner.

GET A GRIP PEOPLE

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:15 PM

RIVERBIRCH


Is River totally "deprogrammed" now that Miranda has been taken care of? Is she "well" and "normal" now? Or are there other code words programmed in there as well?

Riverbirch

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:37 PM

GAMBIT3


Quote:

Originally posted by tdtmf:

-----------------------------------
Both of us agreed that the end of the movie was ruined by Wash's death, which came across as a cheap plot device rather than a necessary element to the film. This has been a character driven series from the beginning. If I wanted to see an action flick I'd rent any number of films being churned out by Hollywood, but what we all fell in love with, and what has made us so loyal to this show, was the characters. Killing off Wash felt like a slap in the face to the fans who enabled this show to make it this far.

From a practical standpoint, it will make the difference between whether I see this movie once in the theaters or ten times. Who wants to watch someone they love get killed over and over again? I think Joss needs his fans if the movie is going to make it and we deserved the payoff. We browncoats deserved to walk out of the theater feeling victorious and with Wash dead that victory was entirely diluted. Who cares that Kaylee has sex after that? Poor choices from an otherwise masterful storyteller.

--------------------------------

that sums up my feeling exactly

td




Doubly so for me.

__________________________
http://www.gambit3.com

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:54 PM

VIGGENBOY


I've never been a fan in a comminity like this one before. I've always been passionate about film, but never shared that passion with a group of like minded/like hearted people on the internet. I saw the film in round two of screenings, and like just about everyone was floored. I walked out of the auditorium babbling to my girlfriend how "that wasn't real. Wash didn't just die." (First phase of dealing with loss: denial.) On the drive back from the theater my friends and I talked it through, and despite it being INCREDIBLY SAD, Joss should be applauded for being so brave. I've seen a couple people here share this same opinion on why it was so important: If Wash didn't die, then the ending would be like just about every other action film... a great big sound and light show. Thats it. No emotional attachment, no real jeopardy fealt by your audience. When Book died, it was sad, but it seemed like he was our sacrifice to make the dangers of the 'verse real. This wasn't a GI Joe cartoon, this was people you love dying. And in lesser hands that would have been it. We all would feel safe that the sacrifice to reality was made, and the rest of our beloved BDHs would make it back alive. Enter a HUGELY BOLD MOVE by a filmaker. For the first time in I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG, POSSIBLY EVER, I was on the edge of my seat, thinking to myself Oh my god, there's a chance he's ending the story and all of my heros are going to die! Right now! JESUS!!! I felt vulerable. The drama at the end became real. A storyteller did his job to the ulitmate level, without bowing out. He handed us the move we would be hurt by but understand with Book. He LEVELED us with a move NONE OF US SAW COMING, and through it all up in the air.

For those of you upset to the point of giving up your love for this 'verse that we all adore... give yourself some time. Once the emotion passes, I hope that it will end hitting you like the end of a relationship does: The ending was cruel and hard, but in the end it was the best thing for both of you. (But I don't think Joss really wants to break up with us. )


Mr. Whedon, a Browncoat salutes you. More. Please make more.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:56 PM

BASSGRAVI


Ok, so obviously if someone's read this far, they know there are spoilers so here it goes:
I don't think Wash's death opens up new plot points, at least, not for Browncoats. We know Wash, we loved Wash...
Through the entire movie I realized more and more that the crew of Serenity was just that: a crew. Nothing more.
Then, you take the one character that didn't seem completely hollowed out inside and kill him because what good is a crewmember if he's not all hollowed out and haunted by his past? How could we possibly let a happy person live because hey, not even Kaylee was "up" in that movie.
(No offense to Jewel, or anyone else because by itslef it was a great movie, but as a part of Firefly I was beyond disappointment.)
They treated Kaylee's character badly, she wasn't cheerful, she wasn't naive or sweet or kind like we knew her to be, she was a somewhat soft-spoken gal who fixed ships and wanted sex.
They reduced all the characters to something flat, and even if they spend trillions of dollars in numerous sequals to go back and explain the characters, it's not fixed.
Wash's death was beyond needless and under the circumstances in the movie it was still implausible in so many ways. It was like "Oh they're safe, but we can't let anyone leave the theater happy so...after completely destroying the tenth crew member, let's kill the most innocent person there!"
Granted, the above mini-rant is not the most logical piece of work I've ever written, but I figure I can get the logic part of it later...
I was sad, but now I'm just a little angry and indignant...nobody kills my Wash and Book but me, gorramit and I say they aren't done yet!!

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Friday, June 24, 2005 6:59 PM

ASA


Wait a week, or two weeks. The shock will wear off. Everyone was screaming and yelling after the previous showing as well, but eventually you come to terms with it.

It's actually like experiencing a real death, as if a close friend or reletive died. It hurts. That's a sign of how good a writer Joss is. But wait a while and like any death, you will feel better. You will get closure.

You saw a preview version, while I am certain the plot will not change, I strongly hope that no one boycotts the movie becuase they are mad at what happens. Go see it in it's final form before you pass final judgement. Sometimes seeing something a second time can really change you view of it.

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Friday, June 24, 2005 7:02 PM

BASSGRAVI


And I think Wash was a bad choice of sacrifice because (and I think I've said this) what about all the people who died just because they might have helped Mal, the little boy that was friends with Kaylee, the people Mr.Uber-Assasin killed? What about Book? Mr.Universe (strange though he was)?
Did that sacrifice not count enough for you folks?
Geez...and I though I was bloodythirsty.
(btw, don't get all self-righteous and offended by the bloodthirsty remark...it's not personal...unless you're responsible, that is...)
Oh, and pardon my typos...my fingers get behind when I'm thinking too fast...

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Friday, June 24, 2005 7:34 PM

HELL'S KITTEN


I can't count the number of times I've read people complaining about the same thing on all the various fan boards. Yes, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Yes, I love Wash (present tense, mind) and hate that he was offed in the flick.

It is beyond me, however, why a certain sect of "fans" feel that they are entitled to anything. Despite Joss' witty intro to the movie, this isn't your movie; it's his story. His blood, sweat and tears - forgive the cliche - partially made possible by all the money you've given to FOX through DVD sales.

The movie was never intended to be just another longish episode, so, no, it's not light and safe. That's what the X-Files movie was, and to date, I haven't seen a sequel....

So to say it was wrong? Um, try it on for size: "Yes, Joss, dear? Your art is wrong. Your imagination is wrong. Your idea about your characters is wrong. Listen to me, for I have seen the DVDs many times."

If you don't feel the least bit silly saying that - or something along those lines - then I shall politely smile while I slowly step back and exit stage left.

Now, having said that and probably annoyed a bunch of people.... (insert polite smile)

The only thing that really bothered me about the event itself is from more of a flow standpoint. It happened suddenly, and I understand why, but even the second time seeing it, I couldn't figure out where that damn thing came from. I know it was a Reaver thing, but the out-of-nowhere-ness of it made it seem a mite cartoonish; like the big anvil falling from the sky after our cartoon hero escaped eminent danger against all odds and everyone saying "Yay! we're saved!" If there was some more obvious visual connection that would cement this spikey weapon thingie in the context of the rest of the film - still without giving you time to think that it had Wash's name on it - I think the whole thing would have flowed a bit better and might not have set people off quite as much.

(But keep in mind that there are more important things for a group of smart, passionate people to worry about than a figment of someone else's imagination.)

Besides, you'll always have your DVDs.

Cheers.

无 党派 人士

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Friday, June 24, 2005 9:08 PM

RIVERBIRCH


I still want a little dinosaur that says "Wash: In Memorium" to stick to my car's dashboard.

riverbirch

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Friday, June 24, 2005 10:34 PM

SWITCHY


I just want to say that there are a great deal of sincerely and deeply felt opinions here and they are all well considered but in regards to Wash's death no-one has mentioned what a beutifully crafted moment it was. I was moved by his self congratulatory moment of having just saved them all "I am a leaf on the wind". A perfect moment. I know how fast we are forced to move on but I do think he was given a moment of grace and I have actually smiled to remember it.

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