Star Trek: Nemisis is a great Trek! Wasn't it? by chrisisall

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Star Trek: Nemisis is a great Trek! Wasn't it?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:41
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VIEWED: 3484
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Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:23 AM

CHRISISALL

Opinions?

Dataisall

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 7:52 AM

CYBERSNARK

Agreed.

The duel of philosophies between Shinzon & Picard is the basis of what all Trek has always been about: are we only the result of the world that created us, or do we have the individual capacity to change ourselves (and by extension, the world around us). Can we choose to be better, or are we doomed to simply revisit the crimes of our fathers/mothers?

As Data summed it up: "I choose to better myself. The B4 does not."

(Also, true Nemesis fans should check out the Time To. . . series from Pocket Books. It chronicles the "season" between Insurrection and Nemesis [and explains how Worf got back and why Riker is now willing to take his own command.)

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 8:19 AM

CHARLIEBZ

I thought it was great Trek.

One reason: finally, a good use of Troi! And Riker fighting that mind-rapist guy. In fact, that entire Troi/Riker/Shinzon/Viceroy scene was very well done. Creepy as hell but well done.

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:15 AM

BLUEBOMBER

When I heard that "Nemesis" did so poorly at the US box office, I was stumped. To me, it faced an issue that has been the cornerstone of good science-fiction from H.G. Wells to Isaac Aasimov, and that is what it means to be "human," and how it's possible to make ourselves more than what we are. As Cybersnark stated, it's a matter of choice.

'Course, I'm reading into it a lot; barring the philosophical psychobabble, it was still a good movie by Hollywood-ized standards. It had explosions, fight scenes, and even a high-speed chase.

I guess I just don't understand why viewers didn't respond to it better.

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:03 PM

CYBERSNARK

I think Nemesis (like Enterprise, for that matter) fell victim to fandom infighting and whinging. People decided it was going to suck hard before they ever saw it, so they didn't bother actually watching it. (Any Vulcans in the house care to explain the logic in that one?)

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 1:00 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Ok. My honest opinion... When I first saw it, I didn't care for it. In fact I must confess I can hardly remember it. But I know that I did see it.

However I'm not a Star Trek fan . I've enjoyed a few of the films and thats been that, but it went no further. As I recall there are always interesting philosophical dilemnas thrown up in most Star Trek films, and this can be engaging to a point, but the thing that I've always found with Star Trek is that outside of Kirk, the other characters are just so rigid and disperate, to the point that you really don't care. Or at least I didn't. I mean I remember the thing with Piccard (sp) being needed for his DNA or something, to make a more accurate double, or clone, but I just couldn't feel the urgency in the crews plight thereafter.

All the intent seems to be there, tight script, credible conclusions, explosions, space, spaceships and aliens but something is always missing for me, with these newer ones in particular.

Also what is with the idea that an alien race has the same haircut!

OK I hope it's cool for a non-trek fan to add to this thread.......

*Exits stage left*

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:05 PM

LWAVES

I agree with the comments that a lot of people decided what they thought about this movie before they'd seen anything.
I also consider that Star Trek had worn out it's welcome by then, some people were just fed up of ANOTHER Trek movie.

When I saw it at the the cinema I thought it was okay. It's only when I saw it again on DVD that I really appreciated it and felt it kept with the tradition of the even numbered movies being the better ones.
I felt, like others, it got back to the core of ST ideas, and wasn't afraid to mix some other things in with the action, and expected ST moments (Data trying to be human, Riker/Troi's relationship etc).

Wonder how the new movie will fair. It is an odd number after all....

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:55 PM

CHRISISALL

I just watched it again last night, and my take is that it was all a Trek film should be...except that we got a LONG phaser/disruptor battle and a rad car chase, both just there for the adrenaline. Other than that- I really liked it a lot.

Critical Chrisisall

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:30 PM

ORPHEUS

I'm a big fan of the Trek films, never really watched any of the series'.

I really enjoyed Nemesis just from the standpoint that I felt they finally gave Data a lot to play with in terms of character development and just stuff to do. I always thought he got sorta short-changed in all the other films. It's been a couple years since I've seen it, but that's still my general impression.

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:28 PM

MUDKICKER

Most die-hard Trek fans that I know thought the movie blew chunks, but I guess I'm not a part of that crowd. I actually loved it along with Enterprise. The big complaint I hear is that it deviated from Roddenberry's 'perfect' Federation and Utopian future. This has been a complaint since the birth of DS9.

Personally, I believe each Trek series stands well on its own and has its own dedicated fandom. DS9 was my favorite hands down which explains why I liked Nemesis and Enterprise. A darker, more true to life vision of the future... that Roddenberry's Utopian future ended at the point you left Earth's perfect, peaceful society and became what we all know now in the black of space... a struggle to survive and the 'hope' for peace driven by Starfleet and the Federation. Those that chose not to accept it, well... personally it reminds me of the Alliance and the Independents. Peace with the loss of freedom is all an illusion, but I digress. :D

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Sunday, November 18, 2007 5:34 PM

STORYMARK

Personalyy, I thought it was a steaming pile. A lame attempt to re-create Wrath of Khan for the Next Gen crew. Riddled with plot holes contrivances. The only Trek film I dislike more is 5.

The best thing about it, is that someone created this very funny website pointing out everything wrong with the movie. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, November 19, 2007 11:06 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
A lame attempt to re-create Wrath of Khan for the Next Gen crew.

A fair criticism, I believe.
But since I have no great love for WOK, I can enjoy N on a level you can't, Story, heh heh.

"The hair salon, Botany Bay, launched with myself and an all twenty-something crew, with only our rock-band hair and flammable hairspray to protect us..." - Kahn

Chrisisall

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Monday, November 19, 2007 11:51 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
A fair criticism, I believe.
But since I have no great love for WOK, I can enjoy N on a level you can't, Story, heh heh.

Maybe. Can't see how anyone would prefer Nemesis to WOK... but whatever.

I just can't believe people - especially Firefley fans, who tend to have somewhat better taste - enjoy a movie so very poorly written. It's just crap.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, November 19, 2007 12:31 PM

MUDKICKER

It's just a difference in taste is all, Story. I loved both WOK and Nemesis, but then again I'm 39 and grew up under both movie eras. I can appreciate each of them without bias. I do, however, understand your dislike for Nemesis since it was written Post-Roddenberry and didn't have his influence or stamp of approval.

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Monday, November 19, 2007 5:24 PM

TRAVELER

My problem is I got tired of Next Generation when it was still on TV. There were few episodes I liked. Most of the time Gordy would throw out techno bable and Picard would say,"Make it so".
After hearing that in almost every episode I got tired of it. The same formula over and over. The only episode I enjoyed was when Q would show up and show them what hypocrites they realy were.

So I have not seen this movie and have now plans to. Give me William Shatner.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:24 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudkicker:
It's just a difference in taste is all, Story. I loved both WOK and Nemesis, but then again I'm 39 and grew up under both movie eras. I can appreciate each of them without bias. I do, however, understand your dislike for Nemesis since it was written Post-Roddenberry and didn't have his influence or stamp of approval.

It has nothing to do with the time frame it was written in. And I have no particular love for Rodenberry's touch (never a big TOS fan - DS9 was my favorite).

I just think it's a horribly written script. Lousy strictly on it's own terms. Click that link I posted above. It's funny, and goes through each of the innane plot points in the film.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:50 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

I just think it's a horribly written script. Lousy strictly on it's own terms.

I will admit to not liking it on my first viewing. I tend to pay attention to the GOOD parts in a movie, if those good parts outweigh the bad, which in this case I feel they do- but I can totally understand your dislike of the film.

B4Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:03 AM

MUDKICKER

Well, I did check out the plot synopsis from the link you provided. All I can say is, that given the time, I can draft a similar synopsis for WOK.

I mean, come on... the big, ole fake Chekov head wasn't poorly made? And Oooooooo, look! Plot development with the return of Kahn! (Which, btw, has to be said that someone on the Reliant should have been able to notice an entire planet missing! Afterall, it was the cause for the deviation in Kahn's planet's orbital rotation.

)

These are just a couple items to point out, so though I respect your point of view, WOK is as weakly written as Nemesis is in your eyes. Just pointing it out, but I love them both regardless. Heck, it's sci-fi. It is what it is...

... and I was a DS9 fan myself. My fav series of Trek of all time. :D

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:05 AM

BLUEBOMBER

I'm with Chrisisall, but I have to say I still thought that site was damn funny, StoryMark.

"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:17 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudkicker:
I mean, come on... the big, ole fake Chekov head wasn't poorly made? And Oooooooo, look! Plot development with the return of Kahn! (Which, btw, has to be said that someone on the Reliant should have been able to notice an entire planet missing! Afterall, it was the cause for the deviation in Kahn's planet's orbital rotation. )

These are just a couple items to point out, so though I respect your point of view, WOK is as weakly written as Nemesis is in your eyes. Just pointing it out, but I love them both regardless. Heck, it's sci-fi. It is what it is...

... and I was a DS9 fan myself. My fav series of Trek of all time. :D

While I see your point, I completely disagree. Sure, you could pick apart WOK if you really tried (though a poor FX head is hardly down to a poor script), but the problems in Nemesis jumped right out at me, with no effort required. It's a script written by an admitted fanboy, that focused on gee-wiz fanboy moments, at the expense of story. There are just too many moments that have no logical consistency at all for me to enjoy it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:18 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mudkicker:
WOK is as weakly written as Nemesis is in your eyes.

"Mr...Checkov....I never forget a face." - Khan (for real this time)
Funny, I don't remember him meeting or even seeing Checkov in the original episode...

And...how many planets and moons do you have to search thru to find a completely lifeless one? Seems to me we got plenty right here in OUR OWN solar system to fit the bill...

But I digress Chrisisall

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Whole lotta Nemesis bashing going on here.

For what it's worth, I thought there were many GOOD parts of the movie. I enjoyed the dinner conversation between Picard & Shinzon. For a brief moment, Shinzon seemed sincere and interesting, especially when complimenting Picard on his "confident" eyes.
I liked the flashback(s) to Shinzon's life on Remus and the way it was presented. If you're gonna nitpick the negatives in Nemesis, or any other sci-fi movie, you're not gonna have very many to enjoy.

I like all 10 Trek movies to some degree; my favorite is #4, The Voyage Home.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:41 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
my favorite is #4, The Voyage Home.

Nuclear wessles?

Too much LDS Chrisisall

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