something ain't right about shindig by evildead1971

I'm not so sure that Miranda was the ONLY Alliance secret in River's head, and they have no more interest in the Tams. If so, the Tams would return home, which I'm not betting on happening.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 2:46 AM

RALLEM

I don't think the Tams will ever return home, because I think at least in the mind of Simon that their parents knew that River was in trouble and said nothing so they could remain comfortable.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 6:37 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm not so sure that Miranda was the ONLY Alliance secret in River's head, and they have no more interest in the Tams. If so, the Tams would return home, which I'm not betting on happening.

They're still fugitives. Simon still broke into a top secret military facility, I doubt all will be forgiven just because 'what' he stole has already done it's damage.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I rewatched "Shindig" again this morning, for perhaps the second dozenth time. I had never considered this a problem, since I don't think Badger is very bright. I doubt he could focus on more than one problem at a time, which in this case is making sure no one made a connection between him and Mal. Besides, the cortex bulletin about the Tams would have been months previous to this action, and as someone else has already pointed out, Badger would not have thought Mal could be connected with such types of fugitives. Badger is pretty low on the criminal totem pole, but he thinks Mal is even lower.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:37 PM

Bushwhacked mentioned a "flash" about a brother and sister, no further info because it was still so classified even the Alliance Commander did not have access. No mention of a picture. Don't recall Badger was introduced to River as Simon's sister, even if he say the "flash". Didn't sound like a cortex thing, more like military or police messaging.

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Monday, December 24, 2007 8:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm not so sure that Miranda was the ONLY Alliance secret in River's head, and they have no more interest in the Tams. If so, the Tams would return home, which I'm not betting on happening.

Expanding upon this, I suspect that the elder Tams were horrified that their children were identified as brash enough to evade the ballyhooed Alliance. Plus, in return for the elder Tam's unholy support of the Alliance, the powers likely confiscated the Tam Estate and threw the Tams in prison for raising children who defied the glorious Alliance. This happens often in history, so no reason not to happen here - serves them right. Perhaps the Tam Estate will become the Alliance's version of Arlington Cemetery (formerly Gen Lee's Estate.)

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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 3:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Bushwhacked mentioned a "flash" about a brother and sister, no further info because it was still so classified even the Alliance Commander did not have access. No mention of a picture. Don't recall Badger was introduced to River as Simon's sister, even if he say the "flash". Didn't sound like a cortex thing, more like military or police messaging.

Precisely. No way info on the Tams would ever appear on a bulletin for Badger to read. Possibly folks are not recalling what Book told Mal:

"No reports broadwaved... no warrants. Much as they want her, they want her hid."

The only ever bulletin for River we see, with photo ID, is in Early's ship. But Early got that bulletin, most like, directly from a military source that sent him out to collect her.

--
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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 6:20 AM

MERRYK

I would disagree about the elder Tams being taken prisoner. Though the Alliance is corrupt, all outward appearances look mostly fair and just. I have a feeling that they're more subtle about punishments...such as quietly having Gabriel Tam fired...rather than the obvious ones that would invite protest among the general population.

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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Expanding upon this, I suspect that the elder Tams were horrified that their children were identified as brash enough to evade the ballyhooed Alliance. Plus, in return for the elder Tam's unholy support of the Alliance, the powers likely confiscated the Tam Estate and threw the Tams in prison for raising children who defied the glorious Alliance. This happens often in history, so no reason not to happen here - serves them right. Perhaps the Tam Estate will become the Alliance's version of Arlington Cemetery (formerly Gen Lee's Estate.)

Can't say as I agree. In fact, I believe very little would happen to Gabriel and his wife. The Tams are well-to-do members of upperclass society. And outwardly the Academy was legit. So, I consider it highly unlikely the Alliance would blow the whistle on their own little, carefully orchestrated, facade: they NEED the cooperation of uppity folks like the Tams to perpetuate the front that theirs is a good school you can send your kids to.

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Tuesday, December 25, 2007 4:54 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Expanding upon this, I suspect that the elder Tams were horrified that their children were identified as brash enough to evade the ballyhooed Alliance. Plus, in return for the elder Tam's unholy support of the Alliance, the powers likely confiscated the Tam Estate and threw the Tams in prison for raising children who defied the glorious Alliance. This happens often in history, so no reason not to happen here - serves them right. Perhaps the Tam Estate will become the Alliance's version of Arlington Cemetery (formerly Gen Lee's Estate.)

Can't say as I agree. In fact, I believe very little would happen to Gabriel and his wife. The Tams are well-to-do members of upperclass society. And outwardly the Academy was legit. So, I consider it highly unlikely the Alliance would blow the whistle on their own little, carefully orchestrated, facade: they NEED the cooperation of uppity folks like the Tams to perpetuate the front that theirs is a good school you can send your kids to.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I agree. :-)

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Friday, December 28, 2007 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RogueScholar: he seems to have bought River's act, and believed her to be from his home planet/moon (the name of which escapes me for the moment, but I think that I did read the name somewhere)

Dayton Colony ;)

The Tams were never introduced by name to Badger, and even when he asked Simon whos he was, all he said was "she's a passenger." He strikes me as the type who's more interested in something going wrong with his business prospects (such as Serenity being tagged for illegal salvage) than he is about Alliance bounties. Since what he does is illegal, doesn't seem wise to me to get tangled up in Alliance affairs whatsoever.

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Friday, December 28, 2007 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

The Tams were never introduced by name to Badger, and even when he asked Simon whos he was, all he said was "she's a passenger." He strikes me as the type who's more interested in something going wrong with his business prospects (such as Serenity being tagged for illegal salvage) than he is about Alliance bounties. Since what he does is illegal, doesn't seem wise to me to get tangled up in Alliance affairs whatsoever.

Hear, hear! Badger is way too small potatoes to ever be involved with, or even know about Alliance business--except that news which they choose to disseminate through the public channels themselves. Heck, the man is too small time to even walk among the Persephone 'nobility' and hope to get away with it.

Thing of it is, though, like you pointed out, Badger don't care about that either. Yes, he's a petty thief with delusions of grandeur, but his delusions are in the realm of fancying himself a type of businessman, with roots in the community and all: 'better than' a crook. But Badger is not a fool, and certainly not so deluded as to think he'd ever have some sort of clout within the high military. Street-wise as he is, I'm sure he knows well how to keep his far distance from them.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:25 AM

Thank you ^_^

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:40 AM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

No way info on the Tams would ever appear on a bulletin for Badger to read. Possibly folks are not recalling what Book told Mal:

"No reports broadwaved... no warrants. Much as they want her, they want her hid."

The only ever bulletin for River we see, with photo ID, is in Early's ship. But Early got that bulletin, most like, directly from a military source that sent him out to collect her.

But remember OIS, when it's Simon's b-day, and they know that that day was his b-day because of of something on Simon. Sure, I don't think there was anything on River, but Simon's warrent or whatever it's called was avalible to the general public if the crew on Serenity got it.

I'm not arguing the main point- I'm just throwing this in here. I do agree with the peeps saying that Badger was too stupid to reconize them, and wouldn't be paying attention to them because he wouldn't want to get involved in Alliance stuff.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

No way info on the Tams would ever appear on a bulletin for Badger to read. Possibly folks are not recalling what Book told Mal:

"No reports broadwaved... no warrants. Much as they want her, they want her hid."

The only ever bulletin for River we see, with photo ID, is in Early's ship. But Early got that bulletin, most like, directly from a military source that sent him out to collect her.

But remember OIS, when it's Simon's b-day, and they know that that day was his b-day because of of something on Simon. Sure, I don't think there was anything on River, but Simon's warrent or whatever it's called was avalible to the general public if the crew on Serenity got it.

I'm not arguing the main point- I'm just throwing this in here. I do agree with the peeps saying that Badger was too stupid to reconize them, and wouldn't be paying attention to them because he wouldn't want to get involved in Alliance stuff.

And you are right to point it out! :) I had forgotten all about it. In OoG, Mal indeed says:

"Seems a fresh warrant for your arrest come up on the cortex. Had your birth date attached right to it."

And, come to think of it, Harken said:

"Alliance property, too. You could lose your ship, Captain. But that's a wrist slap compared to the penalty for harboring fugitives. A brother and sister. When I search this vessel, I won't find them, will I?"

It is, of course, not all that bewildering that Commander Harken knows about the two, but, by pointing out a penalty, he DOES seem to indicate that Mal ought to know they are fugitives, too (through public channels).

As for that cortex thingy, in our world, arrest warrants aren't posted on the Internet, so it's entirely possible Wash/Mal (or Book even?) hacked into a not-so-private part of the cortex. Nothing fancy, really, but just like listening to the police band or some such.

Of course, I remain steadfast in my belief that the details about Simon and River have been kept absolutely classified, and are only accessible to the highest military ranks. But for now we're looking at some fair compelling evidence says at least the warrant for Simon's arrest probably was in the public channels, or at least in the semi-public channels. And that River may be listed as a fugitive as well.

I'll have to do some more thinking about this, RiverFlan. :) Thanks again for bringing your observations to light.

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Saturday, December 29, 2007 6:56 PM

LACYFLYER

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
As for where he is from... Dyton Colony. No idea where that is, but I would say NOT on a core world.

I thought it was "Titan Colony". That's what the subtitles say, anyway.

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 1:42 PM

I'm pretty sure it was "dayton" cuz you have to factor in the cauchney (sp?) accent they kinda pronounce their 'a's like 'i's. And if you look at the script it says dayton colony :-P could be they copied it down wrong, but I'm pretty sure i heard it right. :\

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

I'm pretty sure it was "dayton" cuz you have to factor in the cauchney (sp?) accent they kinda pronounce their 'a's like 'i's.

Dayton Colony, for certain. :) Or sometimes spelled "Dyton".

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 3:03 PM

why is it spelled Dyton? cuz of the way she says it?

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:28 PM

Badger was from Dyton (die-ten) colonies. Not surprising the subtitles say different - they are routinely wrong.
Can't recall exactly where it is stated that Dyton is were Badger was from, but the Unified planets are shown on page 12 of the Serenity Offical Companion, and Dyton is there.

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Monday, December 31, 2007 1:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Can't recall exactly where it is stated that Dyton is were Badger was from, but the Unified planets are shown on page 12 of the Serenity Offical Companion, and Dyton is there.

River says it:

"Don't seem likely I'd tell 'em to you, do it? Anyone off Dayton Colony know's better'n to talk to strangers."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, December 31, 2007 6:40 AM

um ok, apparently in the Firefly subtitles it DOES say "Titan" but in the transcripts it says "Dayton" and other ppl are saying "Dyton." how can this definitively be solved, cuz frankly, im interested.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
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"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, December 31, 2007 8:47 PM

Where does Dayton spelling come from?

The scripts I've seen spell it Dyton:

http://firefly.girven.org/scripts/firefly-106.htm

When hearing "Die-ten" the CCP transcribes it as Titan, just like they make many other mistakes and omissions.

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Monday, December 31, 2007 9:09 PM

forget the site i got my version of the scripts from, but it says dayton. :P

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Monday, December 31, 2007 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
forget the site i got my version of the scripts from, but it says dayton. :P

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I'd be interested in seeing other versions of scripts. If you recall or find the site, please post a linky.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

I'm pretty sure it was "dayton" cuz you have to factor in the cauchney (sp?) accent they kinda pronounce their 'a's like 'i's.

Well, you'd have to talk to someone well 'versed in American history -- 'someone', not me -- but I believe Ohio history knows a "Dayton colony", founded serveral years (in 1806, far as I can tell) after the American Revolutionary War, and home of early pioneer families. In other words: a perfect name to name your own colony after when you were settling on a new planet. :) Also, Ohio is very hilly, right? Maybe River's "Sad little King of a sad little hill." is hinting to that (of course, Badger's Dayton colony would not necessarily have any hillside to speak of, but the hint could just be meant for us).

Futhermore, I find your theory very plausible: that the cockney pronunciation of "Dayton" is "Die-tun", and as such, erroneously, gave rise to "Dyton" (or "Titan", as the idiot subtitle team produced).

Or it really could be "Dyton". :) Joss, feel free to set us free.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 3:14 PM

thanks for the input asarian ^_^

jewel: i have 'em saved on my computer (in the process of making them more easily readable by eliminating unnecessary space between lines and reformatting the paragraph margins) if you want 'em.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 3:15 PM

RIVERFLAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
"Sad little King of a saddle little hill."

It was "Sad little king of a sad little hill"; not trying to be rude or anything, just pointing that out. It just sounds a bit like "saddle" because of the accent.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
"Sad little King of a saddle little hill."

It was "Sad little king of a sad little hill"; not trying to be rude or anything, just pointing that out. It just sounds a bit like "saddle" because of the accent.

LOL. No, that was just my brain being fried, apparently contracting "sad" and "little" as I was writing. :)

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

um ok, apparently in the Firefly subtitles it DOES say "Titan"

Subtitles, smubtitles. :) I turned subtitles on today, just for fun, and it was hilarious. They have Inara live on "Zenon" (instead of Sihnon); Zoe says "Shining" (instead of Shiny), etc. In short: never trust subtitles to have anything right. :)

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Tuesday, January 1, 2008 5:18 PM

lol, true statement.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Saturday, January 5, 2008 4:52 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

And you are right to point it out! :) I had forgotten all about it. In OoG, Mal indeed says:

"Seems a fresh warrant for your arrest come up on the cortex. Had your birth date attached right to it."

And, come to think of it, Harken said:

"Alliance property, too. You could lose your ship, Captain. But that's a wrist slap compared to the penalty for harboring fugitives. A brother and sister. When I search this vessel, I won't find them, will I?"

It is, of course, not all that bewildering that Commander Harken knows about the two, but, by pointing out a penalty, he DOES seem to indicate that Mal ought to know they are fugitives, too (through public channels).

Warrant wouldn't necessarily include a picture. When they talk about this warrant, I'm thinking they mean an ACTUAL warrant; a legal document, not a wanted poster. (This would back up Book's statements in the BDM. You need a warrant in order to get the attention of local law enforcement, which is still your best shot for catching them, but you don't want to flash pictures around for every citizen to see; they don't WANT just "anybody" finding her.)

As for Harken's statements, I've always felt strongly that he is bluffing Mal hard in that scene, or trying to, at least. He doesn't know anything, except their ages ("Siblings. Adult siblings."), and he knows he doesn't know anything, but he doesn't want Mal to know he doesn't know anything. I don't think we can wisely assume based on his statements that he believes Mal should know they are fugitives, Harken is just trying to scare Mal into giving something up. In fact, the idea that Harken's next statements are to offer Mal an "out," by claiming that the Tams were stowaways, might show that he believes knowledge of their fugitive status is not that widespread. (Not that he would have given this clemency to Mal, but lack of general knowledge of the Tam's delinquincy might explain why Harken thought he could get away with that deception.)

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Friday, January 11, 2008 4:33 PM

good point about the warrants, never thought about that before.

Mal's too smart not to see through his bluffing ;)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, January 11, 2008 5:27 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

Mal's too smart not to see through his bluffing ;)

Oh, absolutely. Mal may not be the sharpest brain on the boat, but he certainly has a cagey-ness about him when it comes to readin' folk.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Friday, January 11, 2008 7:53 PM

SPACEMANSPIFF76

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Can't recall exactly where it is stated that Dyton is were Badger was from, but the Unified planets are shown on page 12 of the Serenity Offical Companion, and Dyton is there.

River says it:

"Don't seem likely I'd tell 'em to you, do it? Anyone off Dayton Colony know's better'n to talk to strangers."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

also, badger says "nice to see someone from the old homestead." referencing river's titan/dayton colony. i would say that comfirms for me at least that badger is from dayton colony.

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Tuesday, January 15, 2008 5:25 PM

*agrees with spaceman*

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Thursday, January 17, 2008 9:13 AM