REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A FEW RANDOM THOUGHTS

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, March 17, 2011 13:20
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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Should be sent in to clean up the mess.

That's why they get the big bucks, right?


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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And a sad "farewell" to the 50 workers who have just left the plant, and the roughly dozen or so who have already died in explosions and fires.

These 50 workers were left, like little Dutch boys, to stick their fingers in the dikes while everyone else walked away. When all is said and done, they will be remembered as heroes.

And if anyone can tell me how TEPCO plans to w/draw the workers w/o planning to replace them... or to replace them with "firetrucks and helicopters"... let me know.

The buildings with the spent fuel rods (4,5,6) seem largely intact. It seems to me you can bomb them using water-dropping helicopters or spray them (from a distance, briefly) using firetrucks, but it will be almost impossible to get water to where it actually needs to be.



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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 8:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ideas, anyone?

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:27 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Ideas, anyone?


Nuke the site from orbit...its the only way to be sure.

I note for the record that its not the meltdown or the radiation cloud that is the real problem here...its the liberal spending policies of the Obama govt and the giant mutated lizards that are sure to follow.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Well, they could pay to sample the 10 km area and then scrape up the soil wherever radioactive dust is above background levels. But they've had a number of releases to air as well, and I'm not sure how they could clean that up. Usually on my sites if there's an air issue, it's volatilizing from groundwater into a building, or it's dust from industrial processes within a building. About all I'm aware of that we have to deal with air releases outside of a building is emission laws, which don't consider clean-up as far as I know, just prevention.

It might be different in Japan, not sure.

The company should probably pay, but there should probably be compensation for people who have to evacuate or who get sick, and there should probably be a cancer fund established that'll still have money oh twenty years from now.

As for replacing with helicoptors and fire engines, that's actually kinda SOP when the situation inside of a hazardous or radioactive site becomes unhealthy for emergency response. Unfortunately, you're also right in that it will likely be less effective than people working in the inside. You kind of have to look at it this way: the people working on the inside haven't really been able to stop this from going downhill, it looks like it's going to be bad no matter what countermeasures they take. At this point they've probably pulled out because there's nothing else they can do inside without risking losses to their teams. And if they can't stop it, they have to try to prevent further loss of life and limit impact.

And maybe there's vents they can direct the hoses down or something to keep the external structure of the undamaged buildings intact.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Should be sent in to clean up the mess.

That's why they get the big bucks, right?




Probably as ignorant and inane a comment as Gilbert Gottfried's remarks which got him fired from AFLAC.

Here's your sign.


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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I note for the record that its not the meltdown or the radiation cloud that is the real problem here...its the liberal spending policies of the Obama govt and the giant mutated lizards that are sure to follow.
Totally off-topic and assinine. Obama has nothing to do with the problems at TEPCO, which have been of long standing. It's a totally stupid remark.

As far as I heard last night, those 50 were evacuated because the radiation levels went high, and were sent back in when the levels came back down. At least that's what they're saying. I don't know if it's any different today, but I hope to gawd they don't just evacuate everyone and "let it do its thing". Fifty people for six troubled nuclear reactors/spent rods facilities is pretty horrific in and of itself, but to remove them completely is unthinkable. Most likely they will die, if not now then in the future, from the levels they have received. While TEPCO should be held to account, those guys are heroes. THEY didn't screw up what is most probably weaknesses and cover-ups of same in the building or maintaining of "Fuckyoushima", but they're paying the price.

There's got to be something going on beyond just the 'quake and tsunami, in my opinion, for all six facilities to fail in one way or another. You can't put administrators who don't know shit in to solve it, obviously that was a snark, but something serious HAS to be done, and quickly!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:25 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
There's got to be something going on beyond just the 'quake and tsunami, in my opinion, for all six facilities to fail in one way or another.


The evidence is clear that the Emperor of Japan, a know Nazi-Jew and secret lover of the Queen of England, intentionally caused both the Tsunami and the meltdown of these plants. Earthquake-truthers unite!

Why? To cover up the fact that the Prime Minister of Japan was born in Hawaii...the secret love child of Mr. Miyagi and Barrack Obama's grandmother. All part of a Nazi-Jew Eugenics program that gave us Obama, Naoto Kan, Beyonce, and Donald Trump (aka the four horsmen).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Excellent. Good one, thanx for the first giggle of the day.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

There's got to be something going on beyond just the 'quake and tsunami, in my opinion, for all six facilities to fail in one way or another. You can't put administrators who don't know shit in to solve it, obviously that was a snark, but something serious HAS to be done, and quickly!




Thing is, there DOESN'T have to be something else going on. They used human-designed systems, systems they were told couldn't fail. But as with anything human designed, there were flaws, and it failed.

The earthquake allegedly didn't really damage the sites. The tsunami overwhelmed them, and basically scrambled the reactors. Naturally, they have backup generators and backup battery power for such an emergency, and naturally, batteries being batteries, these ones apparently weren't really checked often or kept up to date. So the batteries kicked on to keep pumping coolant into the reactor cores, and they thought all was well. Then the batteries ran down, about 8 hours into this mess. Backup generators were swamped, and thus basically useless, to 8 hours in, things started to go very wrong. BACKUP backup generators were trucked in by the military, but it was discovered too late that they had the wrong kind of plug, and couldn't be used with this system. Meanwhile, the cores are heating up, and the hotter they get, the more of their cooling water they boil off, meaning more of the rods are exposed, and the hotter they get, and now we're into a nasty chain-reaction feedback loop, and as the zirconium casing around the nuclear material in the fuel rods is exposed to the air and start reacting and heating up, it oxidizes, a process which sloughs off huge amounts of hydrogen as part of the reaction process of the oxidation. Hydrogen builds up in the containment building, until BOOM! - there go the roof and walls of the containment building, and your left basically face to face with a naked core of molten radioactive lava.

It's even worse at the cooling ponds for the spent fuel rods, because there are so many more of those onsite. And apparently some of the cooling ponds for those spent rods were built into the tops of the containment buildings, but not WITHIN the containment structure. So when those go, they get to blow more hot radioactive stuff all over the place.

Lovely.

At least that's the way I understood the explanations I heard.

But don't worry; I've also heard several politicians say nothing like that could ever happen here. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:07 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

There's got to be something going on beyond just the 'quake and tsunami, in my opinion, for all six facilities to fail in one way or another. You can't put administrators who don't know shit in to solve it, obviously that was a snark, but something serious HAS to be done, and quickly!




Thing is, there DOESN'T have to be something else going on. They used human-designed systems, systems they were told couldn't fail. But as with anything human designed, there were flaws, and it failed.

The earthquake allegedly didn't really damage the sites. The tsunami overwhelmed them, and basically scrambled the reactors. Naturally, they have backup generators and backup battery power for such an emergency, and naturally, batteries being batteries, these ones apparently weren't really checked often or kept up to date. So the batteries kicked on to keep pumping coolant into the reactor cores, and they thought all was well. Then the batteries ran down, about 8 hours into this mess. Backup generators were swamped, and thus basically useless, to 8 hours in, things started to go very wrong. BACKUP backup generators were trucked in by the military, but it was discovered too late that they had the wrong kind of plug, and couldn't be used with this system. Meanwhile, the cores are heating up, and the hotter they get, the more of their cooling water they boil off, meaning more of the rods are exposed, and the hotter they get, and now we're into a nasty chain-reaction feedback loop, and as the zirconium casing around the nuclear material in the fuel rods is exposed to the air and start reacting and heating up, it oxidizes, a process which sloughs off huge amounts of hydrogen as part of the reaction process of the oxidation. Hydrogen builds up in the containment building, until BOOM! - there go the roof and walls of the containment building, and your left basically face to face with a naked core of molten radioactive lava.

It's even worse at the cooling ponds for the spent fuel rods, because there are so many more of those onsite. And apparently some of the cooling ponds for those spent rods were built into the tops of the containment buildings, but not WITHIN the containment structure. So when those go, they get to blow more hot radioactive stuff all over the place.

Lovely.

At least that's the way I understood the explanations I heard.

But don't worry; I've also heard several politicians say nothing like that could ever happen here. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill




I hope it happens in Cali....be hilarious. Bye bye nikki2. When it happens, get really stoned and watch your orange skin...it'll be a hoot.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Obviously things weren't being kept up properly, I think that is the ultimate problem, if the backup systems had been maintained properly I don't think this would be so out of control. So who do we blame? The people who were supposed to be enforcing maintainance of the backup systems, probably a mixture of the higher ups and the people who let the rules and up keep slide.

Those people who are staying in order to save their countrymen will be hailed as heroes, its really sad what nuclear can do, but I know that "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" is a concept that the Japanese subscribe to and so those everymen who work at the plant day to day will stand their ground and do what they can.

Its creepy because a week and a half ago I was saying to my dad something like "It seems like people have learnt how to use nuclear safely for power in countries like France, why don't we do that so we don't have to depend on oil. I obviously needed a reminder of how intensely dangerous this can be, its rutted up, you can't stop it, you can't control it when it gets riled. Only thing that will stop it is a miracle. One of the reactors has run out of water.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


A FEW RANDOM THOUGHTS

-------------
If I had to put it in one word- "hubris".

More than pride, the notion that one can control forces much too large for human contemplation, much less human containment.

So anyway... I'm not hearing much in way of ideas. Well, me neither. They have only one option: Whether the fuel rods are split or melted (yes and yes), whether the containment vessels and fuel ponds are intact or not (not) they just have to pour water on all of that and KEEP pouring water on it, even if radionuclides get washed off into the ocean in incalculable quantities.

--------------

Have you ever just known something? Just KNOWN, in the pit of your stomach? Same way that I KNEW the dollar would fall (invested in forex), same way I KNEW the financial system would tank (put my money in a bank likely to fail FIRST- WAMU) and same way I just KNEW the "war in Iraq" would never create a unified, secular, democratic nation...

God, I just KNEW this nuclear problem was going to be a slow-motion disaster. Very much like Chernobyl X6 minus the burning graphite. I even said so, in one of my first posts. I just can't see them pulling a successful resolution out of this (Successful at this point meaning things DON'T get worse before they get better).

------------------
Another thing... the disagreement between the NRC on whether the spent fuel pond in Unit #4 is dry or... according to Japan... contains water.

It is very unusual for the USA NRC to flatly and publicly contradict TEPCO/Japan Ministry. Clearly, the USA has spy satellites, spy planes and/or drones taking high-resolution photos. I think TPTB in the USA have gotten fed up with the secrecy and misinformation surrounding this disaster, and have set up alternate sources of information.

-------------------------


I expect that both the admin at TEPCO and the Japanese government will fall within the next year. Perhaps my sense of Japanese society is "off", but it seems to me that the population have a deal with TPTB: We'll hold up our end of the bargain and you hold up yours.

TPTB have NOT held up their end of the bargain; when the people have put the immediate crisis behind them, I think they will look at their current government and the leadership at TEPCO and expect them to do the honorable thing.

-----------------

When people study mega-disasters (and they have) there are always two or three or sometimes even four safety system failures. In other words, the unthinkable happens. Things happen which weren't even dreamed of. The events are WAAAY out of the boundaries that the engineer calculated. It seems to me that when you do ANYTHING, you have to think about the worst thing that can happen. Because what history has told me is "shit happens". And if you are not prepared to suffer the consequences when the ultimate shit happens... DON'T DO IT.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh BTW- apparently the original poster CAN edit the title!

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:42 PM

KANEMAN


Change the name...thread still is BORING...Blather on

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, as with most mega-disasters, this one appears to have been set in motion by a seemingly random cascading series of small events. I'm not talking about the earthquake or the tsunami here - those hardly qualify as "small events"! I'm talking about the little knucklehead stuff - the lack of decent batteries or good generators (note: Next time, maybe think about having some backup generators on premises in SEALED watertight compartments, just in case of something like, say... a tsunami? Or a flood?), the decision to flood the chamber with seawater (highly corrosive, sea water will even eat concrete!), the lack of the proper interface on the replacement backup generators, etc., etc...

At so many points, this could have - SHOULD HAVE - been stopped or minimized.

This is a lot like the gulf oil spill, except that Rappy hasn't started blaming Obama for it. Yet, anyway.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 3:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This is a lot like the gulf oil spill, except that Rappy hasn't started blaming Obama for it. Yet, anyway.
Heh heh heh. Indeed. Or call for lower taxes to fix THIS problem.

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"My dad went to the Nuclear Plant. I never heard my mother cry so hard. People at the plant are struggling, sacrificing themselves to protect you. Please dad come back alive," read a tweet by Twitter user @nekkonekonyaa.

"My husband is working knowing he could be radiated," said one woman. He told her via email, "Please continue to live well. I cannot be home for awhile."

An email from the daughter of a Fukushima 50 volunteered was shared on national television and said, "My father is still working at the plant -- they are running out of food…we think conditions are really tough. He says he's accepted his fate…much like a death sentence…"

The nearly 200 workers are rotated in and out of the danger zone in groups of 50, taking turns eating and sleeping in a decontaminated area about the size of an average living room.

"They are probably drinking cold water and eating military style packages," said Michael Friedlander, who worked in crisis management at similar American nuclear plants. "It's cold, it's dark, and you're doing that while trying to make sure you're not contaminating yourself while you're eating."

Their mission is called "feed and bleed." They feed seawater onto the reactor to keep it cool, while steam bleeds away the heat.

These workers are aware that their lives are on the line, but they're equally aware of what is at stake.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/relatives-break-silence-japans-her
oes-fukushima-50/story?id=13155666

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:55 AM

DREAMTROVE


If you're going to have a govt. that has absurd taxes like in Japan, then yes, they should be responsible for the welfare of the people. If they fail to do this, the people can take them to task for it.

The corporation should be responsible for the integrity of the power plant. If they fail to do this, the govt. can take them to task for it.

This is the way the system is supposed to work. It's a moronic system, but that's the plan. The US doesn't belong there, we will just fuck it up. Except for GE. Because they built the plant.

It's no one's fault that the disaster happened, unless the US or NK sunk a nuke into the Japan trench to cause this.



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:42 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I hate to say this, but when workin with nuke power, when something goes badly wrong, sometimes the actions of one, regardless of personal cost, can save many.

Even if it wasn't their job, even if they were just a goon for hire trying to make a buck on the side by chasing off the drunk or curious - when idiots in a blind panic fail to take one of the most basic safety precautions in their panicked flight, the mere act of closing a door can make a hell of a difference - I never did mention why I am well over lifetime-plus rad dosage, but I tell you this much...

The guys stepping into the hot zone to try and mitigate this epic disaster won't have to buy their own drinks anytime they drink with me.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to mention, Sig...I noticed your post above. What Haken told me was that ONLY the initial author can change the thread title, not that nobody can. Just FYI...

(since you've changed the title, you might want to update your first post so people know what you're saying; it starts kinda funny now, I had to think a minute to remember what it originally was)


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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