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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
New material on Martin/Zimmerman case
Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:36 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:• There are so far no witnesses to the beginning of the confrontation. Police canvassed the neighborhood to find people who could tell them what they saw, and every eyewitness told police they saw Martin and Zimmerman fighting but that they didn’t know how it started. It was unclear to many exactly what was happening because it was dark and raining. All of them heard a “pop,” indicating a gunshot. All of them heard cries for help, but few agree on whether they were from Martin or Zimmerman. An investigator stated that he determined it was Zimmerman’s voice. • One witness said the fight had ended by the time the shot rang out. A woman that police interviewed said she could not distinguish who was on top of whom, but after the gunshot one person was holding the other on the ground by pressing on his back. But her friend, who assisted in translating for the eyewitness, was “adamant” that there was no physical fighting taking place when the shot rang out. Both were taken to the police department for more questioning. • Trayvon Martin may have been running from Zimmerman at first. The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin. One witness interviewed said she saw one of the subjects chasing the other, but could not see who was who. A recording of a female identified as Martin’s longtime friend who was on the phone with him just before the shooting said he began to run when he realized Zimmerman was following him. • The lead investigator felt that there was enough evidence, based on what he saw, to charge Zimmerman. Although much of his statement is redacted, Sanford PD investigator Chris Serino questioned witnesses over the course of weeks, listened to audio of 911 calls and analyzed information from the general practitioner Zimmerman went to the day after the shooting. He felt that based on his investigation, whose details he forwarded to Brevard/Seminole Country State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, there was enough to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. According to the police capias request, or request for charges to be filed, another official felt that Zimmerman could have avoided any trouble if he had either stayed in his vehicle or at least identified himself to Martin. “The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue to dispel each party’s concern,” the report said. “There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.” http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/05/18/new-trayvon-martin-evidence-10-things-you-should-know/
Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:52 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:55 AM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Quote:Whatever law prohibits vigilantism
Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:59 AM
Quote:Is there such a law?
Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:04 AM
Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:09 AM
Sunday, May 20, 2012 3:43 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:37 AM
Quote:and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."
Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:13 AM
OONJERAH
Sunday, May 20, 2012 10:47 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: Quote:and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid." And to the point where all they knew was "Neighborhood watch 'captain' shoots a black perp". I like the way you present this in such a balanced fashion, geezer. Idiot.
Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:14 PM
Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:56 PM
PIRATENEWS
John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: After that, what happened in those moments of physical struggle, I'm apt to come down against Zimmerman. All of the arguments used to justify why (white) people shoot intruders
Monday, May 21, 2012 1:59 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: GEEZER: When you can't address the point, you attack the person?
Monday, May 21, 2012 4:52 AM
Quote:You don't know what happened. Neither do I. Neither does Wulf. Neither does Niki. Not knowing what happened, I find it premature to form a deeply-held opinion on the matter. Not knowing what happened doesn't seem to limit others from forming such opinions, or from criticizing others - not because they have the opposite opinion, but because they won't jump on a particular bandwagon.
Monday, May 21, 2012 4:56 AM
Quote:You mean like calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with them?
Monday, May 21, 2012 5:33 AM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: GEEZER: When you can't address the point, you attack the person? Crassic.
Monday, May 21, 2012 7:35 AM
Quote:the problem is- once you scare somebody, they are not reacting rationally. That is why so many intruders are shot in the back, or shot unarmed, or shot outside of the home. Zimmerman set up a situation where he got the other guy's adrenaline pumping, and we are mostly not so rational or so cold-blooded or so experienced with confrontation that in the one moment where we COULD turn away, we actually do so. Zimmerman set up the situation, and whether legally or not he is morally responsible for killing Trayvon because he started the ball rolling.
Monday, May 21, 2012 9:55 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: So here's the same procedure I gave WULF, crafted just for you. Imagine there is an armed black man- let's call him Tom- patrolling his mostly black neighborhood and he sees a white teen walking by at night. Imagine this neighborhood has a lot of problems with white harassment, and just the last week three tatooed white youths were arrested for harassing a woman who was just walking home from work. Neighbors are jumpy and afraid, so they decide to have Tom patrol the neighborhood because he's had security experience. Imagine that Tom decides to follow the white kid, despite police reassurance that such action is not necessary. Imagine that, in the end, the white youth is shot dead. And this kid was just visiting a friend.
Monday, May 21, 2012 10:34 AM
Monday, May 21, 2012 10:39 AM
Quote:but I can't fault Geezer for waiting to form his opinion until all the facts are known.
Monday, May 21, 2012 11:34 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: I perceive that Geezer has ALREADY formed an opinion, simply by the way he stated the problem. Who is Geezer lining up with and who is he lining up against when he said Quote:and then get more deeply entrenched in the positions they formed when all they knew was "White guy shoots black kid."?? He's already taken sides. Protestations of neutrality after-the-fact don't undo his preliminary bias.
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 3:53 AM
HERO
Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM: After that, what happened in those moments of physical struggle, I'm apt to come down against Zimmerman. All of the arguments used to justify why (white) people shoot intruders ... I was afraid for my life, I didn't know what that person was going to do, I thought the person was armed... apply to Trayvon. It's the whole issue of goose sauce= gander sauce.
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:29 AM
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:30 AM
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:40 AM
Quote:Here is the one thing I've not seen that I'd want to see as a juror. We need a map of the neighborhood with lines showing the path of Martin and Zimmerman. Where was Zimmerman when the call was made, what direction where he and Martin heading in? Then show that in relation to where the shooting happened. The State says Martin took off running away from Zimmerman. Does the map and timeline support Zimmerman's story that Martin confronted him as he was headed back to his car?
Quote: the problem is- once you scare somebody, they are not reacting rationally. That is why so many intruders are shot in the back, or shot unarmed, or shot outside of the home. Zimmerman set up a situation where he got the other guy's adrenaline pumping, and we are mostly not so rational or so cold-blooded or so experienced with confrontation that in the one moment where we COULD turn away, we actually do so. Zimmerman set up the situation, and whether legally or not he is morally responsible for killing Trayvon because he started the ball rolling.
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:05 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: j, the telephone conversation was quoted by the girlfriend, as such it's hearsay; that there WAS a telephone conversation at that exact moment is proven by verifiable fact. It's a matter of whether one decides what she said was true or if one believes she made up what was said because Martin was her boyfriend. I believe she went to hospital because of what happened, but I haven't heard any more about that for a while. I don't believe it can be used at trial because it's hearsay, can it? The fact of the phone call seems to me could be used, but I'm not sure about her testimony as to what was said...
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:08 PM
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:11 PM
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:18 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point.
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:24 PM
Quote:The police chose to believe it was Martin
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 1:32 PM
Tuesday, May 22, 2012 2:58 PM
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:52 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Oonjerah: Of course, there are other possibilities.
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:11 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point. So you're hoping that evidence supports your conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty? Glad you have no bias.
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:27 AM
Quote: Identifying the voice of the person screaming, although not conclusive, would certainly be compelling evidence that the outcry was made by the victim of the physical encounter rather than by the aggressor. The recording, in other words, could be used by the prosecution to disprove Zimmerman's claim that he shot Martin in self-defense, or by Zimmerman to prove he was being beaten by Martin when he shot him. So, to prove it was Martin's voice, the prosecution likely will rely on family members and friends of Trayvon Martin. The prosecution may also try to rely on forensic experts to give their opinion that it was Martin's voice. Zimmerman, by contrast, will claim it is his voice, and he also will rely on his family and friends, and maybe experts as well. And a jury, if the case ever goes to trial, will have to decide this important factual issue.
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 11:36 AM
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:22 PM
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 1:43 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Storymark: Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: I hope so; I think that it's important in that it shows Zimmerman accosting Martin, which is an important point. So you're hoping that evidence supports your conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty? Glad you have no bias. I think you just showed more bias than anyone by deliberately misinterpreting her words.
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:21 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:15 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:24 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:34 PM
Thursday, May 24, 2012 5:28 AM
Thursday, May 24, 2012 3:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: My statement, Geezer, as intended to indicate that, given all the contradictory evidence one way and the other, something like that would clarify at least ONE point, who started it, that Zimmerman had followed Martin long enough to actually confront him, and that it would put the lie to Zimmerman's having said he went back to his car after being unable to find Martin.
Quote:I've never said I was unbiased, and you know that
Thursday, May 24, 2012 3:40 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Storymark: I think you just showed more bias than anyone by deliberately misinterpreting her words.
Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:33 PM
Friday, May 25, 2012 5:09 AM
Friday, May 25, 2012 5:18 AM
Quote: One surprising detail hasn't been populating the media-sphere that I think is very important. George Zimmerman's medical records revealed that he was under the influence of drugs at the time of the altercation; and I can't thank any of the major media outlets for informing me of this new-found revelation. I decided to do a little web searching to see who else wrote about the claim. I entered the phrase "Zimmerman had drugs in his system." Very specific and to the point right? What did I get back? Pages upon pages of Google results with some variation of the headline "Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in His System At Time of Death." Definitely not what I was looking for. Temazepam and Adderall are drugs that have dangerous side effects. According to the U.S. National Library of Medicine,Temazepam, which is taken for insomnia can cause anxiety, hallucination, fatigue, nervousness, dizziness, aggressiveness and hallucinations (sic). Adderall, which is taken primarily for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, can cause aggressiveness, delusions, hostility, anxiety and depression. So not only was Zimmerman armed with a gun, it's reasonable to assume that he was under the influence of such drugs. I'd like to heir (sic) on the side of objectivity, but it's pretty hard not to raise an eyebrow or two at the fact that predominantly black publications were the first and only (with the exception of MSNBC's brief mention of his use of the drug) that wrote about this detail. I'm curious about quite a few things but I will leave you with two. 1. Why the heck does Trayvon Martin having THC in his system get blasted by the media without even a fraction of a mention of Zimmerman being influenced with drugs that cause anxiety, mood swings and hallucinations? and 2. how will this new-found information affect the outcome of this case? Being under the influence of prescription drugs should not be justification for killing someone. But given the way that things go here in America, the inherently flawed justice system just might lend itself and lean in Zimmerman's favor.
Friday, May 25, 2012 8:39 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: "No witnesses to how it started." Yes, there were. It started when Zimmerman stalked Martin. 'My attitude is: don't start nothing, won't BE nothing!' "Zimmerman can follow Martin ..." Sounds like 'intent' to me.
Friday, May 25, 2012 8:48 AM
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