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Originally posted by Zeek:
Nope. Think of how many billions of people have lived on this planet. If there were ghosts they'd be everywhere by now. Since we can't seem to find them I'm going to have to say they don't exist.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Nope.

When the body of evidence remains inconclusive after centuries of investigation, and positive evidence is often shown to have been falsified or used for charlatanism and scams, it is not unreasonable to be skeptical of any claimed phenomenon.

I am atheist as opposed to agnostic for similar reasons.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think ghosts are like alien visitors... they're in our heads, and no where else.

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Originally posted by VeraSamuels:
. . . I believe there's something, sometimes. Whether that is actually a ghost in the usual understanding of the term is another matter...

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Yeah, somehow I don't think they stopped to question what it was they were seeing and/or classify it

Lets go with "things out of the ordinary"??

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Originally posted by REBECCAHGIFFARD26:
Yes, I believe in ghosts and they really exists because I witnessed one when I was 8 years old while I'm on a vacation inside my grandma's house in the province:)

REBECCAHGIFFARD26

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
It could have been a mining controlled explosion, or some other set explosion, like blowing up a small building?

We live within a stone's throw of three mines, we are always shake, rattle, and rolling...

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Were there deaths at the mine?

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Were there deaths at the mine?

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Probably.

I have had a ton of night terrors since we've been here, but usually the weird things I see and hear can be explained by passing cars or radios or noisy drunken neighbors. It's the ones my brain manifests where people are in the room and talking to me that absolutely scare the high holy bejeezus out of me though. It's like I'm seeing things in dream state, but my eyes are open. One of the reasons I had to start sleeping in another room was I would still be in dream state and flogging hubby to get up, but by the time we were both awake there was no one there. I could FEEL hot breath on my ear sometimes, too.

These days I just sit bolt upright and scream "WHERE'S MY PURSE??!!" I had to start hanging my purse on a hook by the door so I could find it easier. I keep feeling like I've forgotten paperwork, drives me looney tooney.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
I don't understand, what's left to discuss. MUTT999 provided proof at the beginning of the thread, pictures and everything.

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
He was kidding JSF...

Take the politicals back to RWED, thanks.

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Um, you need to work on better material. Little dry.

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I thought it was pretty funny. Actually, at first, JFS, you had me fooled, I thought you'd actually stepped over the line and tracked the mud of of thunderdome, i mean, RWED, into sanityland and punched a browncoat, even if it was only T

Seriously?

Yes, they do. Here's my logic. I've had waking hallucinations and dreams. In those, there are dead people. Everyone else has had this experience too. Those people then tell you things that they might have said. So, they are haunting you.

If someone says they exist in some energyfield or someone else says it's all in your head, either way, they can talk to you and can't touch anything, so what's the difference?

Science could prove that they don't exist, and then in some other form, prove again that they do. Are they sentient connections of their former selves? That's a much harder one to answer. Do I think they travel through some cosmic plane? No, but what do I know? I assume they impress themselves on your subconscious which re-creates them later, but again, what's the difference, the end effect is the same.

For those who want a more mystical approach, I did have this surreal experience as a kid. we were running a B&B in a haunted mansion, it was empty, except for us, and the whole situation was at least the Others level of creepy. This man came to stay one night, he'd never heard of us or the town, but broke down here, very twilight zone. I'd never had a tv and didn't know that the world wasn't really like this, that people didn't really live in haunted castles with no electricity and walk around with candleholders to see their way, i knew they did it in books, and we did, so it all made perfect sense. So that night he went up, and the next morning he asked about the other gentleman who was staying in the building. We asked, and he described a very good desription of the building's creator, who had unbeknownst to him, been shot in the building over a century earlier. It was clear that when we told him that he was genuinely freaked out, so I don't think it was a prank. What he had scene and why, I don't know. He'd perhaps seen a photo somewhere in the house, and then had a dream? or he'd actually saw him standing at the end of the hall as he told us. I'll never know. But again, does it matter?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Nope.

When the body of evidence remains inconclusive after centuries of investigation, and positive evidence is often shown to have been falsified or used for charlatanism and scams, it is not unreasonable to be skeptical of any claimed phenomenon.

I am atheist as opposed to agnostic for similar reasons.

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Um, you need to work on better material. Little dry.

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I thought it was pretty funny. Actually, at first, JFS, you had me fooled, I thought you'd actually stepped over the line and tracked the mud of of thunderdome, i mean, RWED, into sanityland and punched a browncoat, even if it was only T

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If someone says they exist in some energyfield or someone else says it's all in your head, either way, they can talk to you and can't touch anything, so what's the difference?

Science could prove that they don't exist, and then in some other form, prove again that they do. Are they sentient connections of their former selves? That's a much harder one to answer. Do I think they travel through some cosmic plane? No, but what do I know? I assume they impress themselves on your subconscious which re-creates them later, but again, what's the difference, the end effect is the same.

For those who want a more mystical approach, I did have this surreal experience as a kid. we were running a B&B in a haunted mansion, it was empty, except for us, and the whole situation was at least the Others level of creepy. This man came to stay one night, he'd never heard of us or the town, but broke down here, very twilight zone. I'd never had a tv and didn't know that the world wasn't really like this, that people didn't really live in haunted castles with no electricity and walk around with candleholders to see their way, i knew they did it in books, and we did, so it all made perfect sense. So that night he went up, and the next morning he asked about the other gentleman who was staying in the building. We asked, and he described a very good desription of the building's creator, who had unbeknownst to him, been shot in the building over a century earlier. It was clear that when we told him that he was genuinely freaked out, so I don't think it was a prank. What he had scene and why, I don't know. He'd perhaps seen a photo somewhere in the house, and then had a dream? or he'd actually saw him standing at the end of the hall as he told us. I'll never know. But again, does it matter?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Um, you need to work on better material. Little dry.

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I thought it was pretty funny. Actually, at first, JFS, you had me fooled, I thought you'd actually stepped over the line and tracked the mud of of thunderdome, i mean, RWED, into sanityland and punched a browncoat, even if it was only T

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Thanks for yer support. However, I already admitted I thought this was REWD (based on topic), while still replying in kind. And I thanked Wishi for pointing this out.

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Seriously?

Yes, they do. Here's my logic. I've had waking hallucinations and dreams. In those, there are dead people. Everyone else has had this experience too. Those people then tell you things that they might have said. So, they are haunting you.

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These occurrences happened while a child? Or as adult?
I am not sure which discussions you have missed out on during your respite, so I'll mention you should check out the DVD for Suspect Zero (Ben Kingsley, Aaron Eckart, Carrie-Anne Moss) and, if nothing else, view the special featurette demonstration. But not first if you are going to watch the movie - it would be a definite spoiler.

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If someone says they exist in some energyfield or someone else says it's all in your head, either way, they can talk to you and can't touch anything, so what's the difference?

Science could prove that they don't exist, and then in some other form, prove again that they do. Are they sentient connections of their former selves? That's a much harder one to answer. Do I think they travel through some cosmic plane? No, but what do I know? I assume they impress themselves on your subconscious which re-creates them later, but again, what's the difference, the end effect is the same.

For those who want a more mystical approach, I did have this surreal experience as a kid. we were running a B&B in a haunted mansion, it was empty, except for us, and the whole situation was at least the Others level of creepy. This man came to stay one night, he'd never heard of us or the town, but broke down here, very twilight zone. I'd never had a tv and didn't know that the world wasn't really like this, that people didn't really live in haunted castles with no electricity and walk around with candleholders to see their way, i knew they did it in books, and we did, so it all made perfect sense. So that night he went up, and the next morning he asked about the other gentleman who was staying in the building. We asked, and he described a very good desription of the building's creator, who had unbeknownst to him, been shot in the building over a century earlier. It was clear that when we told him that he was genuinely freaked out, so I don't think it was a prank. What he had scene and why, I don't know. He'd perhaps seen a photo somewhere in the house, and then had a dream? or he'd actually saw him standing at the end of the hall as he told us. I'll never know. But again, does it matter?

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Um, you need to work on better material. Little dry.

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I thought it was pretty funny. Actually, at first, JFS, you had me fooled, I thought you'd actually stepped over the line and tracked the mud of of thunderdome, i mean, RWED, into sanityland and punched a browncoat, even if it was only T

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He did cross over. Just as you tried to do. In a way that is not easily noticed. You know that right sockpuppet err, dreamtrove?

No harm no foul.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
He did cross over. Just as you tried to do. In a way that is not easily noticed. You know that right sockpuppet err, dreamtrove?

No harm no foul.

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Um, you need to work on better material. Little dry.

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I thought it was pretty funny. Actually, at first, JFS, you had me fooled, I thought you'd actually stepped over the line and tracked the mud of of thunderdome, i mean, RWED, into sanityland and punched a browncoat, even if it was only T

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Thanks for yer support. However, I already admitted I thought this was REWD (based on topic), while still replying in kind. And I thanked Wishi for pointing this out.

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Seriously?

Yes, they do. Here's my logic. I've had waking hallucinations and dreams. In those, there are dead people. Everyone else has had this experience too. Those people then tell you things that they might have said. So, they are haunting you.

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These occurrences happened while a child? Or as adult?
I am not sure which discussions you have missed out on during your respite, so I'll mention you should check out the DVD for Suspect Zero (Ben Kingsley, Aaron Eckart, Carrie-Anne Moss) and, if nothing else, view the special featurette demonstration. But not first if you are going to watch the movie - it would be a definite spoiler.

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If someone says they exist in some energyfield or someone else says it's all in your head, either way, they can talk to you and can't touch anything, so what's the difference?

Science could prove that they don't exist, and then in some other form, prove again that they do. Are they sentient connections of their former selves? That's a much harder one to answer. Do I think they travel through some cosmic plane? No, but what do I know? I assume they impress themselves on your subconscious which re-creates them later, but again, what's the difference, the end effect is the same.

For those who want a more mystical approach, I did have this surreal experience as a kid. we were running a B&B in a haunted mansion, it was empty, except for us, and the whole situation was at least the Others level of creepy. This man came to stay one night, he'd never heard of us or the town, but broke down here, very twilight zone. I'd never had a tv and didn't know that the world wasn't really like this, that people didn't really live in haunted castles with no electricity and walk around with candleholders to see their way, i knew they did it in books, and we did, so it all made perfect sense. So that night he went up, and the next morning he asked about the other gentleman who was staying in the building. We asked, and he described a very good desription of the building's creator, who had unbeknownst to him, been shot in the building over a century earlier. It was clear that when we told him that he was genuinely freaked out, so I don't think it was a prank. What he had scene and why, I don't know. He'd perhaps seen a photo somewhere in the house, and then had a dream? or he'd actually saw him standing at the end of the hall as he told us. I'll never know. But again, does it matter?

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okay i missed that detail

second, as an adult. i didn't know a lot of dead people as a child. the story of the B&B i was a kid but i wasn't the one who saw dead people then.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Many people lose the ability to perceive extra-sensory when they transition to adult. These inter-connected abilities can include ghosts, Deja Vu, precognition, remote viewing, helping the dead cross over, OBE, etc. If you had the ability as an adult, you may still retain the capability.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:
Yeah, somehow I don't think they stopped to question what it was they were seeing and/or classify it

Lets go with "things out of the ordinary"??

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OK, seeing indicates vision, an apparition. I don't think I've seen one, but most kids are more attuned to this, and my childhood talents went away mostly during Boot Camp. I do still believe in the manifestation of a visual presence.

Things out of the ordinary also brings in things which sometimes intersect with spirits, those dead but not yet passed thru, those both dead and already passed thru ("The Light"). Such as remote viewing (used to find bodies as well as other tasks), deja vu, premonition, mediums, others.
If you want to see another demonstration of remote viewing, see the special features on the DVD for Suspect Zero.
That lady from Cleveland (Mary Ann Winkowski) who was the basis and technical expert for The Ghost Whisperer has a pretty good book on her aspect of the subject. But she only does those between death and passing thru, she cannot communicate with those already passed thru.

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Many people lose the ability to perceive extra-sensory when they transition to adult. These inter-connected abilities can include ghosts, Deja Vu, precognition, remote viewing, helping the dead cross over, OBE, etc. If you had the ability as an adult, you may still retain the capability.

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I lost the ability in my 30s when I was "cured" by the men in white coats. That made me "sane" which I wish someday to learn to undo, after I learn how to survive.

I spent some time working through the science of it, and what I came to was that, okay, maybe we live in an SE Lain world, and there's something existential going on; or maybe our network is just the collective unconscious.

If you think about it, ants achieve both telepathy and the intelligence of roughly a human, even though we have a million times larger a brain, through their amazing ability to tap into the collective unconscious. Ergo, it's pretty powerful stuff. Certainly it's how dreams work. All those people in your dreams are recorded copies of real people, but they're amazingly accurate in anyway. That girl who turned you down? good luck picking her up in your dream. She's probably stilll miffed at you.

But why not, I mean, we exist in the communication between brain cells within our own body. If we show up in other people's dreams, and we know we do, than that reflection can have a larger dispersion across the larger network.

If someone were to broadcast themselves to me to the point where they appear in my dreams, then i broadcast myself to you, it's possible, and probable, that i'm also rebroadcasting them as well, even though you haven't met them and may not even know they exist.

I did some neurological work in grad school on nano-networking that occurs inside brain cells. Networks get duplicated on a smaller and smaller level, where an entire human consciousness can be replicated inwards, because the limiting factor is really the size of the moleules. So, while the cell is If the brain is e+2 and each cell of is ergo e-10, there is another e-14 within it. Which is plenty of wiggleroom to work form.

Deja vu I picture as working the same way as chess. You've unconsciously calculated the possible events of the next six moves and discarded all of the dead ends, and then went on to the seventh. the brain could do the same thing with time on an epic scale.

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With ghosts, the next question would be, if a conscious can exist and transmit itself in this form, how long could it theoretically realistically survive for? I know that viruses that transcribe some or all of their dna can be reconstituted thousands of years later even if the initial dna has decayed, as long as the fragments are brought back into contact.

This leads me to the idea that it's theoretically possible for such a transferred image of a consciousness to reconstitute and possess someone. I think that's not likely as the host would hopefully have a much strong consciousness themselves. But this is a Sci-fi forum, so do i think all of that is possible? Yes, with or without a serial experiment lain universe, which I definitely cannot prove we do not live in.

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Chess, Nostradomus...
Or of people in your future, who you will meet through others you have also not met yet, from other events which have not transpired yet? It would seem that for events which happen in the future, there are many limitations to your concept of rebroadcasting dreams.

I am not familiar with SE Lain, so maybe that is a major missing portion of the explanation for me.

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Okay, see Serial Experiment Lain. Essentially the idea that the universe can be explained in terms of information theory. It's true that you can posit 3 dimensional space and everything in it form the basic relations of information theory as sort of foregone conclusions, which leads one to the possibility that even a matrix like reality would be conceivable. The computational power would be immense and that's not where SE Lain goes. But that the universe itself is capable of hold and transmitting data.

That's one possibility outside of the collective unconscious.

One thing in any science is if you are to accept the possibility of a science, like precognition or life after death, in addition to "accepted science" then, as with all other sciences, there will be crackpots in that field. So, a large number of things you read are going to be bogus, but that doesn't mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist.

So, taking my own experiences, and filing them into one of these two categories as the SE Lain possibility, that the fabric of spacetime is an information network, then the solution seems self evident. Alternatively, as collective unconscious, they may in face be echoes, like in the Dr. Who episode with the library, but instead within a computer system, this is within the human mind as an information network, or rather the human race. Since we know ants and bees and termites function in this fashion, it's not inconceivable to think that humans could.

And could would be the second operative word. Not everyone would necessarily leave an imprint on either information system.

As for future people: If the imprint is significant enough, it might create a self-perpetuating influence. Figure even with a human collective unconscious as the information system, a human makes x # of impressions on x # of humans, and then exists in a shadow within those humans, that shadow could then create a secondary reflection, and with enough reinforcement, could ultimately create one stronger than the initial impressions. If so, then I'd probably have to concede to the possbility of the divinity of Christ. I figure that the people who sincerely believe in him may very well have met him.

Have I met ghosts I didn't know? Yes. Can I confirm this? No, i didn't know them, so I can't definitely say that vision was this dead person, it's possible that I was delusional (dubious) or that it was some form of alien life (skeptical but possible) I've gone through a number of other possible explanations in my life, such as that perhaps we have several little currents of neural soul living inside of us, and one takes over control of the brain and becomes "us" and these others are people that didn't.

Now as to the chess question.
If you see the universe as an infinite chess game and the mind as an infinite computer, than there would be a logically determinable number of steps that could be theoretically predicted by the mind. Logically, this could force us out of the narrow time window of unmeasurably small monomer events into a spectrum of temporal range of a moving time window. In fact, it more or less must be so, since the brain cannot process data at the same rate things can happen. If this window is normally .075 seconds, then with the proper amount of subconscious precognition, it could expand to say 7.5 seconds, which would be pretty much in the window of deja vu, without any trouble, and could expand a great deal further if dealing with more vague details of larger situations.

Nostradamus..

Sufficient scope of time with sufficient vaguery and large enough scale events, sure, this can be done.

I use to predict the future all the time, and was quite good at it. I was hired by two brokerage firms and made them a lot of money. I would also predict political events, and social ones. I found it got to a point where I would know basically what would be said in a given conversation. At that point, precognition is colliding with telepathy. I found that knowing what they were going to say led to knowing what they weren't going to say, which led to knowing what they were thinking.

Now, the explanation of the possible existence of these phenomena seems to bother you, because it doesn't call for the creation of some new magic.

Consider if you will that now that we understand chaos theory and string theory and have figured out how wormholes and teleportation and time travel happen within the universe, that all of this was done using what we knew, because we knew it. To the medieval minds that didn't know it, all of this was magic, and so were many other things, like magnets, and tides, and indeed herbal medicines were witchcraft because no one understood biochemistry, and plagues and storms were the work of gods. Picture priests in 1348 trying to pray the plague away.

We have to try to understand the world with the tools we have, but that doesn't mean we can't do it, only that sometimes we'll be wrong.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

Nope, do not think they do.

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