REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (the Marine Wins!)

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Sunday, October 30, 2011 06:52
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2081
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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


This is an example of the people who are protesting in New York and all over the world. This is one of the people Rappy calls "filth" and "scum".







"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill


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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Yeah, I just saw it on Facebook.
THAT is how I define superhero.



The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:38 PM

KIRKULES


That's pretty cool, I don't know what the protesters want, but they should be able to express themselves without being abused by the amateurish police of NYC.

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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



He's arguing with himself.

Got the right, of course, but he's not helping their cause. They have no cause. They're just useful idiots, is all.

Sad, really.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:48 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
That's pretty cool, I don't know what the protesters want, but they should be able to express themselves without being abused by the amateurish police of NYC.

Thanks, Kirk.

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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:49 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Sad, really.



No, thanks AU.

And stop being a pisspot, K?


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Hey Chris,


Go build something small.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:54 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

He's arguing with himself.

Got the right, of course, but he's not helping their cause. They have no cause. They're just useful idiots, is all.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

They have a cause, only a true idiot would not see that. They also have the right to assemble. That Marine is a hero in more then one way.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 17, 2011 12:57 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

They have a cause, only a true idiot would not see that.

They want to see change come from a rising awareness rather than bloodshed.
I'm down with that.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, October 17, 2011 1:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

That Marine is a hero in more then one way.


So, I'll take it that he's one guy in uniform the OWS thugs WON'T be spitting on ?

Quote:

Coast Guard member harassed, spat on by Occupy Boston protesters

The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her.

Now, the Coast Guard is warning all staff working on Atlantic Avenue to avoid those protesters while in uniform.

Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.



Something we all can be proud of, at least.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 17, 2011 1:19 PM

BYTEMITE


I choose to be both impressed by the marine, and to snicker at the two male protesters who didn't have the courage enough to pick on anyone but a female member of the coast guard.

Every organization is represented by all kinds, it seems.

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Monday, October 17, 2011 2:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Quote:

Coast Guard member harassed, spat on by Occupy Boston protesters

The woman was walking to the train and said protesters spit on her twice, called her foul names and even threw a water bottle at her.

Now, the Coast Guard is warning all staff working on Atlantic Avenue to avoid those protesters while in uniform.

Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.






I heard Breitbart is offering a $100,000 reward for anyone who can provide video of this incident, but there are no takers. Now, with all that "left-wing liberal media" on hand, and all those cameras, surely SOMEONE caught it on video, right?

Because if not, Rappy says it didn't happen.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 17, 2011 3:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm rolling with Byte on this one.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 17, 2011 3:14 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
They want to see change come from a rising awareness rather than bloodshed.
I'm down with that.


Maybe stupid, maybe noble, but it doesn't matter. Soon the rioters, anarchists, and criminal hooligans will take over and ultimately destroy this movement, just like the Hells' Angels/Altamont incident destroyed the Woodstock Nation. Don't take your Earth shoes out of mothballs just yet.









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Monday, October 17, 2011 3:19 PM

CHRISISALL


Earth shoes suck.
Just sayin'.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, October 17, 2011 6:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
They want to see change come from a rising awareness rather than bloodshed.
I'm down with that.


Maybe stupid, maybe noble, but it doesn't matter. Soon the rioters, anarchists, and criminal hooligans will take over and ultimately destroy this movement, just like the Hells' Angels/Altamont incident destroyed the Woodstock Nation. Don't take your Earth shoes out of mothballs just yet.



The way the KKK did with the tea-baggers? Is that what you're saying?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I only got about half way through because it was embarrassing to watch. He went on far too long and loud for me; he'd made his point many times over and didn't need to go on shouting. Nonetheless, I loved every word he said and admire him for standing up to them.

I was actually quite surprised they didn't round him up and haul him in for "disturbing the peace", which is probably what would have happened if a regular protester had done what he did. I can only put it down to respect for a Marine, which is nice to know.

Anyone who expects Raptor to have any kind of respect for anyone on what he considers "the other side", no matter the situation,the person, or anything else, needs their head examined.
Quote:

Devon Pendleton, a spokesman for Occupy Boston, doesn’t believe that those male protestors are actually part of the movement. However, Pendleton wants to be clear, that if protestors are responsible for doing something so disrespectful, he’d like to apologize on behalf of Occupy Boston.
I'm surprised you didn't leave that part out; as it tends to make OUR point, not yours.

Byte's got it:
Quote:

Every organization is represented by all kinds, it seems
Every organization is represented by all kinds, it seems. But that will NEVER make headway with Raptor; there are only two sides in the world, and if you're not with him, you're not just against him, you're filthy scum.

Mike, the same thought occurred to me when I read it, but it wasn't worth the effort to say it.

Guess it would be worth my while to scroll past JS too, as what came from him is about as sensible as what comes from Raptor. I'm enjoying skimming or scrolling past Raptor's posts immensely, it's really freeing. As I keep saying if only we had some RATIONAL voices on the right, how nice it would be....

Oh, I didn't read enough of it to catch the Hell's Angels thing...did that destroy Woodstock? I must have missed that...you still hear about Woodstock, they still make movies that mention it, but I rarely hear about Altamont. Huh.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, October 21, 2011 6:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, Thomas is very very angry, it's a damn hard thing to get fucked by your superiors over in Iraq, have to deal with a shitty mission intended to oppress a sovereign country and SOMEHOW try to work around it and actually protect cooperative locals instead of using them for fucking bait...

Whole nother can o worms to come home and see your own government, the fuckers who give you orders, doing much the same economically and legally to the folks who's will you were supposedly carrying out and then realize that EVERYONE has been lying to you.

Except the very people who it has been made all too clear to you are *going* to be your NEXT pacification/suppression mission - and finding out the badge bearing bastards you'd be supporting are a buncha fuckin jackboots...

Yeah, that'd make anyone a little pissed, and I tellya, I could go down to Romulus right now and round up thirty plus former soldiers just as big, just as angry, with nothing more than a few hand gestures, who are busy at this moment all but chasing the Romulus PD up a goddamn tree for behavior even worse than this.(1)

And of course the Oathkeepers, although being one seems to be sufficient cause for social fuckin services to challenge their custody of their own children (there have been several more incidents) so they've been keeping a low profile, but they ARE present.

-Frem
(1) Only reason they're being prosecuted tho, is that they were making undisclosed asset seizures and not paying Worthy and her goons a proper cut.

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Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:16 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


What are the Oathkeepers?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 24, 2011 5:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
What are the Oathkeepers?


People who actually UNDERSTOOD the meaning of the Oath of Service, and stand by it, even in defiance of the powers that be.
Quote:

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, peace officers, and veterans who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic … and meant it.

Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and that oath will be kept. We won’t “just follow orders."

Below is our declaration of orders we will NOT obey because we will consider them unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral violations of the natural rights of the people. Such orders would be acts of war against the American people by their own government, and thus acts of treason. We will not make war against our own people. We will not commit treason. We will defend the Republic.

Declaration of Orders We Will NOT Obey

Recognizing that we each swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and affirming that we are guardians of the Republic, of the principles in our Declaration of Independence, and of the rights of our people, we affirm and declare the following:

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects - such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

The above list is not exhaustive but we do consider them to be clear tripwires – they form our “line in the sand,” and if we receive such orders, we will not obey them. Further, we will know that the time for another American Revolution is nigh. If such a revolution comes, at that time, not only will we NOT fire upon our fellow Americans who righteously resist such egregious violations of their God given rights, we will join them in fighting against those who dare attempt to enslave them.

NOTE: please also read our Principles of Our Republic We Are Sworn to Defend


In fact it was the Oath of Service, and the constant flagrant defiance of it by our military, which turned me against them and wound up making me essentially a Class III Consciencious Objector, in that at the time I didn't so much have a problem with blowin folk away Oath or not, so much as doing so at a bulk rate cause I felt it dehumanized them - which for an absolute nihilist such as I was at the time, to find the conduct of the service offensive to THEM...
Speaks much to the depths of depravity which are official policy now - this kind of behavior was being tested in potential back then, and those who balked were either railroaded out of the service or left of their own accord.

Quote:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Not the administration, Not some political party, Not the chain of command, save for those rare few times they're actually in compliance with the UCMJ which ain't been often lately...

TO THE CONSTITUTION AND ITS PRINCIPLES.

I said it, I swore it, I meant it - which is why I take some of the stands I do despite being an Anarchist, cause at the very least we need Constitutional Compliance as a MINIMUM standard to prevent the slide into tyranny.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, October 24, 2011 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry Frem, but I see the Oathkeepers as fringers, almost a militia cult, and a pretty paranoid one at that. JMHO.

On the subject of the Marines, anyone see this?
Quote:

The Marines have arrived.

Last week, amidst the frothing sea of protesters in New York, assembling to protest what they see as rampant greed and political corruption, Marine Sgt. Shamar Thomas, an Iraq War Veteran, started a fire that has suddenly begun to grow and rage. As the Marine angrily stood up for protesters who were allegedly being aggressively arrested by riot police, he reminded the standing authorities, who looked stunned as they listened to the his frustrated and furious rant, that they were not "in a war zone."

"Leave these people alone," he was heard shouting. "These are US citizens! Stop hurting these people, man! Why are you doing this to our people?" He continued, emphasizing his confusion at the seemingly unbalanced reaction to a peaceful demonstration: "I've been to Iraq for 14 months for my people... They don't have guns! ...Why are you hurting these people? It doesn't make any sense... There is no honor in this!"

In the wake of this outburst of raw frustration, those of the group now known as OccupyMARINES, whose members had been cautiously monitoring the situation in New York since the first day of protest, began to take a stand against perceived police brutality against peaceful assemblers. An estimated 20,000 non-active Marine Veterans have decided to band together and form the aforementioned group, with the stated purpose of supporting and protecting the growing movement, offering "organization, direction, supply and logistics, and leadership... especially for the oncoming winter months."

Asking that no individual be granted special recognition, in keeping with the traditions of the Marine Corp and the overall sentiment of the movement, the group spoke with me as one, saying that they intend to "stop the brutality used against demonstrators... with tact and respect." Beyond this basic intention of protection, the group also hopes to "diminish what we believe to be the 1 percenter's attempt to discredit what OWS was attempting to achieve by expressing, or influencing, public opinion with such excerpts as: The OWS participants are unemployed, hippies, or college kids looking for a handout; They are anarchists; and They are a movement organized by the 1% for control purposes.

"Our initial goal by coming forward was to legitimize the OWS argument that should America continue down the path currently set forth, America will eventually cease to exist. OccupyMARINES wants America to understand her military, though employed at the time by the Federal government, are Americans that have freely elected to defend her, to sacrifice individual life should it be required, and will not stand idly by as the 1% continues to rip out the heart of America."

It is important for those outside the movement to be aware that no member of OccupyMARINES is an actively serving member of the armed forces, nor are any a member of the Individual Ready Reserves (IRR.) Additionally, the group has set forth a strict set of guidelines with regards to dress code, in keeping with the requirements of the military uniform code. They will not be in dress uniform, but will be organizing "blouses which identify branch affliliation affixed with an OWS logo for shirts and sweatshirts..." The group's dress code, in keeping with the tradition of military precision, goes on to outline exactly what each member should wear, down the the brand and color, so as to be identified easily as part of OccupyMARNES.

"Should non-active military supporters present themselves at demonstrator groups in military dress uniform, we ask that they do not actively participate in group activities. We will honor our military uniforms and the sacrifices of our brother's and sister's. Only non-dress uniform supporters may actively participate."

The group is also hoping for a little help from the American entertainment industry. Knowing well that the influence of popular celebrities can greatly impact media attention, which the group believes have "refused, and continues to refuse..." to offer adequate and fair news coverage. They have asked the "celebrity class of America to support OWS and OccupyMARINES in waking America up. Celebrities such as Justin Timberlake, Will Smith, Jennifer Lopez and the rest at #OccupyCelebrities, take a stand with us at 1 Liberty Street in Manhattan. Zuccotti Park is waiting for your help."

And above all, the Marines have requested that all supporters express support for the "brave men and women of the New York City Police Department and Fire Department... by providing hot coffee and food to eat. These honorable men and women are out there along side us and deserve to be remembered for their roles in 'Occupy' America. OccupyMARINES asks supporters to create and express signs in support of NYPD and FDNY. OccupyMARINES extend our eternal gratitude to New York's finest out there ensuring a peaceful occupation."hhttp:// www.litterareport.com/story/8d7d8ee069cb0cbbf816bbb65d56947e#!/page:0 more. Worth its own thread...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, October 24, 2011 9:14 AM

BYTEMITE


...I just wigged myself out again. ._. Paranoia is getting to me.

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Monday, October 24, 2011 10:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You said that in the other thread, too. I still don't get why this should make you feel paranoid. If anything gave ME paranoia, it was all the talk of revolution and "second-amendment solutions" put forth by the Tea Party. The OWS people support PEACEFUL civil dsobedience; as it says, they want to CHANGE the system, not destroy it. So I don't understand where paranoia comes in.

Unless you believe the politicos who say the OWS group is gonna come into your homes and kill you, but I KNOW you're smarter than that!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, October 24, 2011 1:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Frem, that sounds pretty cool. I liked that list of things a lot. The only one that brought little warning bells up in my head was no. 5 about sacession, because it makes me think of the Civil War and saceeding so you have the right to own slaves, which I know you don't agree with the slavery thing, I don't think anyone normal does. I think you're pro states rights though and that's why you think that one's important. But the rest of them sounded totally cool to me. And because someone rolls with this list is no reason to take kids away, it has nothing to do with giving kids food, love, etc. so only mean folk would probably think was okay.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 24, 2011 1:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Sorry Frem, but I see the Oathkeepers as fringers, almost a militia cult, and a pretty paranoid one at that. JMHO.




And that's the saddest part of it, really - the idea that those very few active military personnel who actually TAKE THE OATH OF SERVICE SERIOUSLY are regarded by most Americans as a "fringe" or "cult" group.

If this is the consensus of the country - that upholding the Constitution relegates one to "fringe" or "cult" status - then America is already lost.

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Niki, I find them not-entirely-trustworthy and a little on the creepy side too, especially since a lot of em are still workin off that cult-like military mindset...

But, you use the tools you got, even if they're flawed, you know ?

Thing with this is, back in the day when they were "testing the waters", asking soldiers if they would do these things and then railroading or running off those who said they would not - and mind you the whole training regimen began to change at that point away from marksmanship and soldiering to more physical conditioning and indoctrination, they realized their little plans would FAIL if even one-in-twenty would fire blue-on-blue to prevent it, so they needed to refine the whole works in order to make SURE the drones would "obey orders"... ANY orders.

Lip service aside, the current training involves endless little tests of that, starting off small and getting progressively more nasty, to ENSURE that ANY ORDER, NO MATTER WHAT, *WILL* be obeyed - anyone who balks is washed out in training these days, and even back then I was brigged repeatedly and damn near kicked out for having "issues" with illegal orders and only really saved from that when they needed someone capable of independent thought and action in case they needed to run supplies to units where convoy or airdrop was suicidal - and given how they grind out anything remotely resembling critical thought, independence or personal initiative out of them in training, they *needed* me... else I woulda been sent packing as "personality incompatible with military service".

So anyhows these days our military "training" which is still based on musket-line tactics, primarily involves sleep deprivation, physical conditioning, and heaps and heaps of indoctrination - i.e. flat out brainwashing, and particularly of a type refined and tested in the hellcamps before being applied to our troops.

Damn right I don't trust them, but nor do I feel any particular regret about what'll HAPPEN to them when they stand to, as about maybe less than half actually will, when the rubber meets the road, cause sometimes the best use of a dangerous, untrustworthy resource is to USE IT UP.
I'd rather have them fighting each other than all of em against us - I know that sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

Essentially what we've done here is taken that conditioning, that brainwashing, and exploited a loophole in it in order to turn these hoo-rahs against those who'd use them to oppress us, since the very act of brainwashing them gave them loyalty to something (The Constitution) which the administrations, former and current, OBVIOUSLY have no respect for.

Trust them ? Oh hell no - I know them, what they are, too well to do so.
But use this to essentially hold them to their duty to protect the people of this country no matter what it costs the poor deluded bastards ?
Oh hell yes.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, October 24, 2011 2:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, Mike, it's not that they take the oath seriously. It's that they make such a big deal of it, wrap themselves around it, so tightly, and even more that they believe in conspiracies which their oaths might conflict with. For example:

We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."

From their website:
Quote:

"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army" - Gen. George Washington, to his troops before the battle of Long Island

Such a time is near at hand again. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this Army - and this Marine Corps, This Air Force, This Navy and the National Guard units of these sovereign states.
...
In addition, we affirm that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to preserve the military power of the people so that they will, in the last resort, have effective final recourse to arms and to the God of Hosts in the face of tyranny.
.....
We expect that sweeping warrantless searches of homes and vehicles, under some pretext, will be the means used to attempt to disarm the people.
.....
Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason.
.....
Such tactics were repeated by the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, and by the Imperial Japanese in Nanking, turning entire cities into death camps. Any such order to disarm and confine the people of an American city will be an act of war and thus an act of treason.
.....
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually affirm our oath and pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Oath Keepers

If none of that makes you uncomfortable, so be it. I can see using them as a tool, as Frem suggests, but that's about all.

I don't see any need for there to be a group of military and law-enforcement people who feel the necessity of making a point of saying they'll keep the oaths they swore, because they think the government is gonna enslave us all or turn our cities into concentration camps, etc.

An oath is an oath; if one needs to join a group centered around it and call oneself an "Oath Keeper", I wonder about them.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, October 24, 2011 5:51 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Honestly, that stuff that Niki put up makes sense to me, call me a conspiratorialist or whatever. The only part that confused me was the connection they make between the second amendment and Divine Hosts, that was confusing and I fail to see the connection. But the rest of it made sense. Now, I'm pro second amendment, but Divine Hosts, connection not computing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, October 29, 2011 9:42 PM

JAMERON4EVA


I'm going into criminal justice tech at my college, and i have to say i agree with that Marine. I could give a few points that would support my position, and even maybe a few for the other side, in the interests of fairness. But it boils down to this, people are seeing a problem in this country, there peacefully protesting, and yet there being assaulted, and accosted by those who have sworn to protect them. Now i have utmost respect for Military and Police servicemen and women, seeing as theyre signing there lives away for us, hell the female i want to date is going into bootcamp in June, but these police should re-think there stand in NYC

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

"We mustn't over stimulate young minds. Das ist verboten!" - Rappy

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Saturday, October 29, 2011 10:47 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If this is the consensus of the country - that upholding the Constitution relegates one to "fringe" or "cult" status - then America is already lost.

Damn right. Well said.

Niki, Oathkeepers say what they say because they have already seen infringements on the Constitution on US citizens. They have already seen what the US govt does to non-US citizens abroad (concentration camps, etc). It is not a tremendous leap to imagine the govt trying the same tactics at home.

They are simply reiterating that, if the govt ever tries that same shit at home, they WILL NOT comply. They are saying, "Don't go there. Don't even think about it."





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Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well said, Jamer.

I have no problem with people keeping their oaths or pointing out that something could happen here. It's when they make a big deal out of it, and add language which (in my opinion) is conspiracy crap, that I find them strange. And there's more to them than just those oaths. My opinion is expressed in this article:
Quote:

One of the things that happens major political parties and major media figures indulge in naked fearmongering is that -- surprise! -- a lot of people get fearful. Really fearful. Some of them become downright paranoid, and start believing in all kinds of looming conspiracies against them.

Which means you wind up with outfits like the Oath Keepers, who clearly are one of the major "Patriot" groups leading the recent surge in Patriot movement activity.

You can watch Stewart Rhodes, the Oath Keepers' leader, at the recent CPAC conference being interviewed by the ever-friendly Bill Whittle and come away with the impression that, gosh, these are just folks who want to uphold the Constitution and apple pie. Paranoid, us?

As with all Patriot groups and their leaders, that's the schtick when the cameras are on. When the mask comes off, it becomes quite a different picture.

That's clear from reading Justine Sharrock's in-depth piece on the Oath Keepers for Mother Jones, a must-read. [Full disclosure: I am quoted in several places in this article.] As Sharrock makes clear, one of the more disturbing aspects of this group is that it has the effect of radicalizing the very people who are supposed to be upholding the law and protecting us from violent extremists:
Quote:

There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution—but then they go a step further, vowing to disobey "unconstitutional" orders from what they view as an increasingly tyrannical government.
Moreover, recruiting from military and police veterans increases exponentially the lethal competence of these extremists. As we observed back in our first post on the Oath Keepers:
Quote:

This is an example of why I've called the Iraq War "the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School": Inevitably, there are going to be competent killers either joining the far right from our military ranks -- especially if they've been recruited into those beliefs either before or during their service -- or enacting far-right "lone wolf scenarios," and they are going to have the ability to wreak a great deal of havoc.

... Remember, too, that there have already been concerns raised about concerns raised then by the FBI hold true in this situation as well:
Quote:

Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color.

... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong.

... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.


Rhodes and Whittle are eager to portray the core of the Oath Keepers' creeds -- the "ten orders" they "will not obey" -- as involving merely ordinary rights that everyone naturally would stand up for, and in a way, that's true. But only deeply paranoid people would believe there is any reason to be concerned that these rights violations might be looming.

It seems not to occur to Whittle to ask how many people believe the government is about to cordon off our cities and turn them into concentration camps. Evidently, because he too shares that fear.

It's widespread among the Oath Keepers, as Sharrock makes clear -- and highly selective. That is, it's relegated largely to liberal Democratic presidents, because Republicans are people they can trust:
Quote:

Pray (who asked me to use his middle name rather than his first) and five fellow soldiers based at Fort Drum take this directive very seriously. In the belief that the government is already turning on its citizens, they are recruiting military buddies, stashing weapons, running drills, and outlining a plan of action. For years, they say, police and military have trained side by side in local anti-terrorism exercises around the nation. In September 2008, the Army began training the 3rd Infantry's 1st Brigade Combat Team to provide humanitarian aid following a domestic disaster or terror attack—and to help with crowd control and civil unrest if need be. (The ACLU has expressed concern about this deployment.) And some of Pray's comrades were guinea pigs for military-grade sonic weapons, only to see them used by Pittsburgh police against protesters last fall.

Most of the men's gripes revolve around policies that began under President Bush but didn't scare them so much at the time. "Too many conservatives relied on Bush's character and didn't pay attention," founder Rhodes told me. "Only now, with Obama, do they worry and see what has been done. I trusted Bush to only go after the terrorists. But what do you think can happen down the road when they say, 'I think you are a threat to the nation?'"

In Pray's estimate, it might not be long (months, perhaps a year) before President Obama finds some pretext—a pandemic, a natural disaster, a terror attack—to impose martial law, ban interstate travel, and begin detaining citizens en masse. One of his fellow Oath Keepers, a former infantryman, advised me to prepare a "bug out" bag with 39 items including gas masks, ammo, and water purification tablets, so that I'd be ready to go "when the shit hits the fan."

And yes, they're closely enmeshed with the Tea Party movement now:
Quote:

Oath Keepers collaborates regularly with like-minded citizens groups; last Fourth of July, Rhodes dispatched speakers to administer the oath at more than 30 Tea Party rallies across America. At last fall's 9/12 march on Washington, he led a contingent of Oath Keepers from the Capitol steps down to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Afterward, Oath Keepers cohosted a banquet with the hawkish Gathering of Eagles. This February, a member of the group organized a Florida Freedom Rally featuring Joe the Plumber and conservative singer Lloyd Marcus. (Sample lyrics: Mr. President! Your stimulus is sure to bust / it's just a socialistic scheme / The only thing it will do / is kill the American Dream.)
And the paranoia knows few limits, as all kinds of conspiracy theories are encouraged:
Quote:

Oath Keepers is officially nonpartisan, in part to make it easier for active-duty soldiers to participate, but its rightward bent is undeniable, and liberals are viewed with suspicion. At lunch, when I questioned my tablemates about the Obama-Hitler comparisons I'd heard at the conference, I got a step-by-step tutorial on how the president's socialized medicine agenda would beget a Nazi-style regime.

I learned that bringing guns to Tea Party protests was a reminder of our constitutional rights, was introduced to the notion that the founding fathers modeled their governing documents on the Bible, and debated whether being Muslim meant an inability to believe in and abide by—and thus be protected by—the Constitution. I was schooled on the treachery of the Federal Reserve and why America needs a gold standard, and at dinner one night, Nighta Davis, national organizer for the National 912 Project, explained how abortion-rights advocates are part of a eugenics program targeting Christians.

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/oath-keepers-potentially-most-
lethal
my opinion, too.



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