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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The link that you provided shows

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a summary of U.S. objectives, negotiating round and public forum information, T-TIP blog posts, facts sheets, reports, and press releases.

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But no actual. yanno, copies available for analysis....YES, IT WAS A SECRET despite your snide comment.

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The simpl way iz to require all payroll recordz to be submitted along with their inkum tax filingz. Naturally, if they are dealing with forin vendorz, it gets much more complicated.- JO

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Actually, it gets impossible. The vendors in this market (Walmart, The Gap, etc) simply "subcontract" to another company in another nation, and let THEM do the exploiting. It's called "the gig economy", haven't you heard? Everyone is paid piecework.

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JO .... WHO has killed more people and destroyed more nations in the past 20 years or so? Us? Or Russia? - SIGNY

US. And yet we are still sumhow the good guyz! - JO-

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Good lord, how is that? Because our intentions are pure?

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Why is it in OUR interests to keep sway over an entire planet? What do YOU get out of it?

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The immigration system iz krap. Total krap. The GoPs blocked Obama frum fixing it and you want to blame Hillary? - JO

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What was Obama's "fix"? Let everyone in? Legalize everyone?

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Trump is being just like I said he would be: A LOOSE CANNON.

Well, we need a loose cannon.

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What's your goal here, JO? What are you aiming at?

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:

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Originally posted by second:
How much land did the USA rob from Mexico? Millions of square miles, you know, all of Texas, California, New Mexico. Having that land part of Mexico would have made Mexico a much different country.

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It definitely would have made the US a much different place. There almost never would have been a Democratic president without those 55 electoral votes from California.

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I'm not going to have a debate with you or anybody else about what we owe to the wonderful Mexicans.

If you feel so guilty about that, donate all of your money to the American Indians since all of it was made on their land.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I'm not going to have a debate with you or anybody else about what we owe to the wonderful Mexicans.

If you feel so guilty about that, donate all of your money to the American Indians since all of it was made on their land.

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1kiki was demanding that I present a citation ("cite") proving that illegals from Mexico have it worse in Mexico than when they are in the USA, or else 1kiki won't believe me. I doubt that illegals left better paying jobs in Mexico to steal poorly paid jobs from good old USA citizens for patriotic revenge against the USA stealing land from Mexico. Mexicans would have to be nuts to go to that much trouble for a little revenge.

Instead, Mexicans have been coming North for a century to take the worst jobs in the USA because the worst is better paying than the average job back in Mexico and the worst jobs in the USA are wide open to anybody who wants them. US citizens quit the worst jobs sooner than illegals will. Those jobs look comparatively good to what is in Mexico. (1kiki would want a "cite" to prove that about Mexicans' and US citizens' attitudes toward work, but that's 1kiki's nutty rhetorical trick.)

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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So you have cut down on illegals - check. What's it going to be like when the only way to get a vegetable or a piece of fruit is to pick yourself?

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International agribusiness gets diminished? Slave labor goes bye-bye? Those are good things. Don't you agree?

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I dunno - is "International agribusiness gets diminished" a good thing? I already buy as much local as I can, will others? Do you?

"Slave labor goes bye-bye a good thing?" You seem to have no shame is making the dumbest assumptions and then asking the dumbest questions. I can't take you seriously when you do that. You pov is way too simple.

So fewer field hands/illegals means the price of produce sky rockets. How do you think Consumers will react? I made it simple for you Kiki!

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
At this point I say just raise the minimum wage to 20 bucks and lets see who was right.

We're all a decade or two away from being poor and completely dependent on government anyways.

All of us, except for Second.

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I have serious doubts that Trump is going anywhere.

You libtards keep up the drama you're just ensuring that the GOP stays in control. Keep it up. ;)

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Besides, they've been ignoring the democrats and the chattering class for a while, and both lost any remaining semblance of credibility during the last election, with Hillary as a candidate, and her media-predicted cruise to victory.

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Originally posted by second:
You still harping on that same old story? What's his name, Bernie, lost by millions of votes in the Democratic primary. In the general election he would have looked like a Commie and been annihilated, same as George McGovern was by Nixon, even after Nixon's "secret" plan to win the Vietnam War had achieved nothing for four years. And Watergate.

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SECOND

Trump didn't win, Clinton lost. I'm reposting these - yanno - facts, because you ignored them the first time around. And I put an especially relevant quote in larger font to help you focus on the salient point.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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CBS News exit polls suggest Trump’s win was in large part a repudiation of Hillary Clinton by a substantial number of white voters.
There are also indications that Clinton’s gender was a factor in the outcome.
Among white voters, 57 percent said Trump was not honest and trustworthy while fully 70 percent said the same of Clinton.
In the exit polls, voters were asked whether they strongly favored their candidate, liked their candidate but with reservations, or if they voted because they disliked the other candidate. While 21 percent of Clinton voters said they disliked the other candidates, more – 28 percent – of Trump voters reported that. There appears to have been more people voting against Clinton than against Trump.
It is difficult to say with any certainty, but with razor thin margins in some states, a small number of voters who might have supported Clinton (who voted for either Johnson or Stein) could have altered outcomes in some states.

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CBS News Exit Polls: How Donald Trump won the U.S. presidency

by Stanley Feldman and Melissa Herrmann

Many observers thought this presidential election would be decided by Donald Trump’s polarizing rhetoric, his history of behavior toward women and his questionable qualifications for the office.

Instead, CBS News exit polls suggest Trump’s win was in large part a repudiation of Hillary Clinton by a substantial number of white voters. While Clinton did win big majorities of minority voters, she did not get the level of support from those groups that she needed to overcome her deficit among white voters.

There are also indications that Clinton’s gender was a factor in the outcome. The gender gap was substantial. Trump beat Clinton by 53 percent to 41 percent among men while Clinton won among women by 54 percent to 42 percent. Four years ago, President Obama won 45 percent of men’s votes and Mitt Romney won 44 percent of women’s votes.

More telling is the gender breakdown among white voters: Trump beat Clinton among white women 53 percent to 43 percent. This was close to Romney’s margin in 2012. While Mr. Obama won 35 percent of white, male voters in 2012, Clinton lost to Trump among this group by 63 percent to 31 percent.

As expected, Trump did best among white voters without a college degree, beating Clinton by the enormous margin of 72 percent to 23 percent. Trump also won among white, non-college women 62 to 34 percent and white college-educated men, 54 to 39 percent. Among white voters, Clinton only won among women with a college degree by a 51 to 45 percent margin. Interestingly, among white voters, there is no evidence in the exit poll that income affected the likelihood that they supported Trump.

Clinton needed extremely strong support from African-American voters to try to offset Trump’s margin among whites. She did win 88 percent of the black vote to just 8 percent for Trump. However, this was significantly lower than the 93 percent of black voters Mr. Obama won four years ago. The falloff in her share of the black vote was entirely due to black men. Clinton won among black women by a 93 percent to 4 percent margin. Among black men she won by 80 percent to 13 percent.

Many political observers thought a significant number of Republicans would either vote for Clinton, one of the third party candidates, or stay home rather than casting their votes for Trump. According to the exit polls, Republicans stayed loyal to their presidential candidate. Some 89 percent of self-described Republicans voted for Trump; 91 percent of white Republicans did. In contrast, only 84 percent of white Democrats voted for Clinton. She did win 86 percent of white Democratic women, but only 81 percent of white, Democratic men voted for her.

Surprisingly, given all of the attention to Trump’s attitudes and behavior toward women, he did virtually as well among white, Republican women (91 percent support) as he did among white, Republican men (92 percent). Clinton was more competitive among white independent women than men, losing to Trump by a 49 to 41 percent margin among independent women and by 57 to 31 percent among independent men.

The Candidates’ Personal Characteristics

These were not likable candidates who instilled a great deal of confidence in their supporters. Many voters supported one of these candidates despite significant misgivings.

The majority of voters had unfavorable impressions of both. Twelve percent of Clinton voters and 20 percent of Trump voters had an unfavorable opinion of the candidate for whom they opted. So despite their misgivings about the candidates, something still compelled them to support one of them.

Both candidates were seen as not being honest or trustworthy by more than 6 out of 10 voters. However, among white voters, 57 percent said Trump was not honest and trustworthy while fully 70 percent said the same of Clinton. Almost 3 in 10 white voters said neither candidate was honest and trustworthy. Among this group, Trump won 52 percent to Clinton’s 32 percent. 13 percent of these voters supported one of the third party candidates.

Voters in the exit polls were asked if each of the candidates was qualified to serve as president. Almost half thought Clinton was not qualified but only 5 percent of her voters thought that. Even more voters, 6 out of 10, thought Trump was not qualified to be president. Almost a quarter of Trump voters gave him their support despite saying he was not qualified.

Voters were also asked whether each candidate has the temperament to serve effectively as president. By a slim margin, 55 percent to 43 percent, voters said Clinton did have the right temperament. Sixty-three percent said Trump did not have the temperament to be president. Just over half of all white voters said both candidates did not have the right temperament. While very few of Clinton’s voters questioned her temperament, 1 in 4 Trump voters backed him while saying he did not have the temperament to be president.

Voters were asked how they would feel if Clinton were elected president and 53 percent said they would be concerned or scared. Similarly, if Trump were elected president, 58 percent said they would be concerned or scared. Among Clinton voters, 10 percent would be concerned or scared if Clinton were elected and 95 percent would be concerned scared about a Trump presidency. Interestingly, while 94 percent of Trump voters would be concerned or scared about Clinton being elected, 17 percent said they would be concerned about a President Trump.

If many people had serious doubts about both candidates, is there a way to determine how they distinguished between Clinton and Trump? In the exit polls, voters were asked whether they strongly favored their candidate, liked their candidate but with reservations, or if they voted because they disliked the other candidate. While 21 percent of Clinton voters said they disliked the other candidates, more – 28 percent – of Trump voters reported that. There appears to have been more people voting against Clinton than against Trump.

A Verdict on Major Policy Issues?

Can we say Trump did better than expected in the election because a majority of voters supported his most powerfully articulated policy positions? Exit poll voters were asked whether most illegal immigrants working in the U.S. should be offered a chance to apply for legal status or deported to the country they came from. Fully 7 of 10 voters said they should be allowed to apply for legal status. Similarly, more people opposed building a wall along the U.S. border with Mexico than supported it. And virtually as many voters (38 percent) said trade with other countries creates more U.S. jobs as said it takes away jobs (42 percent).

How did Trump win when many of his core positions were so unpopular? Some people voted for him regardless of that. Among those who favored giving illegal immigrants a chance to apply for legal status, one in three voted for Trump. Thirty-five percent of people who said international trade creates jobs voted for Trump. And even 27 percent of white voters who said they want the next president to change to more liberal policies voted for Trump.

One issue that may have motivated some white voters is the ongoing national debate over the way police treat African-Americans. The exit poll asked voters whether they think the country’s criminal justice system treats all people fairly or treats blacks unfairly. Half of white voters said blacks are treated fairly while 41 percent say they are treated unfairly. Among the first group, 8 in 10 voted for Trump. Sixty-five percent who said blacks are treated unfairly voted for Clinton.

Did Johnson and Stein Affect the Outcome?

With so many tightly contested races, the votes cast for candidates such as Gary Johnson and Jill Stein may have impacted the overall results. The exit polling asked voters they would have cast ballots for if there were only two candidates (Clinton and Trump). A quarter of Johnson voters said Clinton, 15 percent said Trump, and 55 percent said they would not have voted. Numbers were similar for Stein voters, with about a quarter saying they would have chosen Clinton, 14 percent saying Trump, and 61 percent saying they would not have voted. It is difficult to say with any certainty, but with razor thin margins in some states, a small number of voters who might have supported Clinton could have altered outcomes in some states.

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Stanley Feldman is professor of political science at Stony Brook University; Melissa Herrmann is president of SSRS

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In addition, you need to see the interesting graph here showing how many democrats stayed home. I can't imagine how anyone could have done worse.:

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http://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/09/graph-shows-hillary-clinton-los
t-democrats-vote.html

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

^at Second: Look, I don't understand any of the financial principles &
maneuvers that you are explaining.
But I think you just said that with Trump & many of his like-thinking
cronies in charge, we are teetering on the brink of disaster as bad as
the stock market crash of 1929.

(So much for "Trump is a billionaire; he'll balance the budget.")

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Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

Srsly. Did a democratic ever do anything wrong or a republican ever do anything right?

If the answer is "no" then maybe you should rethink the whole democracy thing.

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Trump campaigned for the presidency by pledging no tax cuts for the wealthy, but newly leaked pages from his 2005 taxes demonstrate how the wealthiest Americans — like Trump — would benefit from some of his tax proposals.

Trump’s proposals to eliminate the alternative minimum tax, cut the capital gains tax rate and curb income tax rates would have shrunk his tax bill dramatically if they had been in place over a decade ago. The AMT alone was responsible for roughly 86 percent of his federal tax bill.

The Trump administration has said it would make up for lost revenue by closing loopholes, but the specific deductions Trump’s plan would eliminate have not been laid out in detail.

Trump’s promise to not slash taxes for the rich has already been called into question

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^at Second: Look, I don't understand any of the financial principles & maneuvers that you are explaining. But I think you just said that with Trump & many of his like-thinking cronies in charge, we are teetering on the brink of disaster as bad as the stock market crash of 1929. - OOJ

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Whatever and whenever it happened, we are really just a pending disaster. I know its fashionable to blame Trump for well, everything, but many people in both parties had a had in setting this up. Give credit where credit is due.

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Whatever and whenever it happened, we are really just a pending disaster. I know its fashionable to blame Trump for well, everything, but many people in both parties had a had in setting this up. Give credit where credit is due. - SIGNY

You are using the wrong analogue of a cliff that the whole world is standing on the edge. = SECOND

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A better analogue is that humanity is riding in thousands of buses with thousands of drivers, drivers being leaders. Any driver could crash his bus into a ditch or another bus at any moment because the driver forgot about the steering wheel. A blind driver in the biggest bus on the road, Trump at the wheel of America, could run most of the other buses off the road. The potential for disaster is because we are moving at high speeds in huge machines designed by people we don't understand and never meet with. The confusion comes from thinking that we should be living slowly, peacefully in the year 30 AD, before Jesus was crucified, if only those capitalists and their money and armies hadn't taken over the world.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I wasn't posting "analogies" SECOND, I was posting FACTS: Dollar-denominated debt is somewhere in the realm of 10-1000X the entire world GDP . . .

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I really love the way you think. No, not really- SECOND

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Trump is blessed with congressional majorities. One would expect his budget to be a fairly literal legislative proposal. Trump’s budget is different.- SECOND

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The link that you provided shows a summary of U.S. objectives, negotiating round and public forum information, T-TIP blog posts, facts sheets, reports, and press releases. But no actual. yanno, copies available for analysis....YES, IT WAS A SECRET despite your snide comment.- SIGNY

I stand corrected.- JO

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The simpl way iz to require all payroll recordz to be submitted along with their inkum tax filingz. Naturally, if they are dealing with forin vendorz, it gets much more complicated.- JO

Actually, it gets impossible. The vendors in this market (Walmart, The Gap, etc) simply "subcontract" to another company in another nation, and let THEM do the exploiting. It's called "the gig economy", haven't you heard? Everyone is paid piecework.- SIGNY

Ye, I no how it wrks. But not every company or even every industry iz able to do that and thoze that can cant do it 100%. So, wen Jimmy Lee in Shen Qua iz making 10x wut hiz nayborz are, it starts to spred. Pretty soon, even the novelty fake dog doo factory haz to start paying more to keep employeez.- JO

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JO .... WHO has killed more people and destroyed more nations in the past 20 years or so? Us? Or Russia? - SIGNY

US. And yet we are still sumhow the good guyz! - JO

Good lord, how is that? Because our intentions are pure?- SIGNY

Sumthing to do with the US being a nation uv lawz (more or less) rather than a jiant corrupt cleptocrasy like Russia, China, India, Pakistan. - JO

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Why is it in OUR interests to keep sway over an entire planet? What do YOU get out of it?- SIGNY

Good Q. The biggest paje on my site will probably end up being the ENVIRONMENT paje. Part uv it will go into that.

The short ansr iz individual power.- JO

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Due to the great amount uv power, especially the power to destroy, available to each uv us AND to groups uv any size, the survival uv the planet iz dependent on having sum sort uv indesputable unchallenjable Cop keeping a watch on thingz. The big dog on the block haz to be a good guy.- JO

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The immigration system iz krap. Total krap. The GoPs blocked Obama frum fixing it and you want to blame Hillary? - JO
What was Obama's "fix"? Let everyone in? Legalize everyone?- SIGNY
Hard to say sins the GoPs blocked it!!! I suppoze its available sumwhere anyway.- JO

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Trump is being just like I said he would be: A LOOSE CANNON. Well, we need a loose cannon. - SIGNY

Az per abuv about power - no we do not.- JO

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What's your goal here, JO? What are you aiming at? - SIGNY
Same az alwayz. Increase averaj intellijens, wizdom and empathy. Redoos evil. Contain and incapasitate the bad guyz.- JO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
HEY JO! I didn't want to have this discussion get lost in the shuffle!

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I'm not happy seeing an increase in military spending, but 54 billion is a drop in the bucket really...

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I spent less than $5,000 last year.

The amount of money the Government spends on anything is ridiculous. It's all just made up 1's and 0's at this point. More than 90% of the US currency out there today isn't even backed up by worthless paper anymore.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I spent less than $5,000 last year.

The amount of money the Government spends on anything is ridiculous. It's all just made up 1's and 0's at this point. More than 90% of the US currency out there today isn't even backed up by worthless paper anymore.

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Congratulations! $5,000 per year places you high up in the world's elite since 71% of the world's population lives on less than $10 a day or $3,650 per year.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/08/news/economy/global-low-income/

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:

You are a silly, silly woman.

My income in 2 years has been $0. My income since 2009 has not come close to what I used to make in a year.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:

You are a silly, silly woman.

My income in 2 years has been $0. My income since 2009 has not come close to what I used to make in a year.

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You think I'm silly, do you? Then you will be thinking that Paul Ryan is wise and serious.

Ryan is passionate about the idea that the government helping low-income people such as yourself can actually hurt them. As he explained, social assistance programs make it less painful for people to be jobless.

“The left,” he said, “thinks this is a good thing. They say, ‘hey, this is a new freedom — the freedom not to work.’” But they’re “making a big mistake here. What they're offering people is a full stomach and an empty soul.” Under Ryan’s health bill, strongly endorsed by Trump who in my opinion is a nut, but perhaps not in 6stringJoker's, if you want medical care then you’re going to have go out there and hustle and make sure you find yourself a soul-filling job.
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/17/14960358/paul-ryan-medicaid-
keg

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trump has history of debunked claims.

Trump GWB has history of debunked claims.

Trump Hillary has history of debunked claims.

Trump CNN has history of debunked claims.

Trump McCain has history of debunked claims.

Trump NYT has history of debunked claims.

Trump Obama has history of debunked claims.

Seriously. Your obsession with Trump is pitiful.

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"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
And yes, it is a choice. I don't want to work another part time bullshit minimum wage job, but there are plenty of them out there. Eventually I will have to accept one of them if nothing better pops up.

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Yup, there is something wrong with Trump. As for all those other institutions and obsolete/retired politicians, nobody cares anymore.

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Yup, there is something wrong with Trump. As for all those other institutions and obsolete/retired politicians, nobody cares anymore.- SECOND

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Originally posted by second:
What's Trump going to do to fix you?
www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/opinion/the-increasing-significance-of-the-
decline-of-men.html

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trump has history of debunked claims.

Trump GWB has history of debunked claims.

Trump Hillary has history of debunked claims.

Trump CNN has history of debunked claims.

Trump McCain has history of debunked claims.

Trump NYT has history of debunked claims.

Trump Obama has history of debunked claims.

Seriously. Your obsession with Trump is pitiful.

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And your continued defense of the defenseless

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
lol... Getting married to show you have it together is so last century. 50% of marriages end in divorce, and many of them just completely ruin the children.

I'm fixing myself. Even with my problems I already have my shit together more than 90% of other Americans. Getting married is not on my bucket list.

Do you have any actual points that you want to discuss second,

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
or are you happy making like Wish and taking time out of your busy schedule to try to personally attack other people?

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Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Having my shit together makes my shit together. I don't have anything to prove to you.

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Originally posted by G:

You misunderstood again. Defenseless ideas not defenseless people. Think about it. The former is the idea that Trump is fit to be president. The latter would be the people that will have their insurance taken from them by Trump. See?

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