REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Another Putin Disaster

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 15, 2022 03:25
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Sunday, February 20, 2022 3:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by THG:
Ukraine is no match for Russia. Still, I hope Russia gets its clock cleaned with heavy casualties.



Ted loves it when people he doesn't agree with die.

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 6:32 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Finnish President Sauli Niinistö said Sunday he's recently seen changes in Russian President Vladimir Putin's behavior, saying that he now sounds more "decisive" than in the past.

While Niinistö emphasized his country wasn’t planning on a dramatic change in its relationship with Russia, he suggested Russia’s actions are making Finnish people rethink joining NATO.

"A lot depends, also, what actually happens in Ukraine and how Russia is going to behave after that," he said. "If Russia sees a success story for them, that makes them more dangerous."

Niinistö, who has been in close contact with Putin, recalled an exchange the two shared on the phone. During one of the regular calls, Niinistö said he pushed back against Putin by standing up for his country’s sovereignty. That is when Putin switched tones, he said, then began to “officially” read his list of demands for Finland to comply with to keep Putin happy.

For decades, Finland has kept a delicate balance in its relationship with Russia, having been invaded by the Soviet Union in 1939. The country, which borders Russia, stayed scrupulously neutral throughout the Cold War, becoming neither part of the Warsaw Pact nor of NATO.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/finland-s-president-sees-changes-
in-putin-it-was-a-different-kind-of-behavior/ar-AAU60qj?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 9:17 PM

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The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


On Tuesday, the Duma, Russia’s parliament, passed a resolution authorizing Putin to recognize the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republic — the two provinces of Ukraine’s southeastern Donbas region, which are occupied by armed pro-Russia separatists — as independent states. He could next move thousands of troops, tanks, and other weapons into the territories, at the “request” of their leaders, to defend their people from Ukrainian assault.

In this way, Putin could keep up the military pressure on the Ukrainian government without facing the many risks of a full-scale invasion. He could also further obstruct Ukraine’s already-forlorn prospects for membership in NATO — Putin’s main goal — since, in order to join the U.S.-led military alliance, a state must have stable borders, among other qualities.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/02/putin-backup-plan-in-ukrai
ne.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 9:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


NATO is cancer.

Russia is the lesser of two evils.

Hell...

Any country in the Middle East during their worst period narratively is the lesser of two evils in comparison.

--------------------------------------------------

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 9:24 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Worry about this.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/feb/19/dhs-has-now-released-
all-76000-afghan-evacuees-mil
/

Nobody in America gives a single shit about Russia or the Ukraine.

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 9:47 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Worry about this.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/feb/19/dhs-has-now-released-
all-76000-afghan-evacuees-mil
/

Nobody in America gives a single shit about Russia or the Ukraine.

All this money is being spent because Russia has H-bombs: The estimate of $634 billion in total costs for nuclear forces over the 2021–2030 period is $140 billion more than CBO’s January 2019 estimate of $494 billion over the 2019–2028 period (see Table 2).
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57240

That's the future, 6ix. How much did Russian H-bombs scare America in the past?

What did nuclear weapons cost the United States? From 1940 through 1996, we spent nearly $5.5 trillion on nuclear weapons and weapons-related programs, in constant 1996 dollars. If we could represent $5.8 trillion as a stack of dollar bills, it would reach from the Earth to the Moon and nearly back again, a distance of more than 459,000 miles. I'd say all that money was spent only because of Russia, not because the French or N. Korea have bombs.
https://www.brookings.edu/the-hidden-costs-of-our-nuclear-arsenal-over
view-of-project-findings
/

Apparently, 6ix, you are mistaken about how much America cares about Russia.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 11:23 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Feb 19 (Reuters) - Finland's president on Saturday compared Russia's current treatment of Ukraine to an attempt by Soviet dictator Josef Stalin to threaten and divide Finland before invading in 1939.

"All what happens in Ukraine, all what happens in the Western world at the moment, reminds me of what happened in Finland," President Sauli Niinisto told a security conference in Munich.

"Stalin thought that he will split the nation and it's easy to go and invade Finland. Totally the opposite happened. People united, and we see the same in Ukraine."

Finland, part of the Russian empire from 1809 to 1917, resisted an initial Soviet invasion in 1939. The Nordic country later sided with Nazi Germany for much of World War Two and lost a chunk of its pre-war territory to the Soviet Union in peace treaties afterwards.

During the Cold War, Finland was neutral between the West and the Soviet Union.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-likens-russias-treatment-
ukraine-soviet-threats-2022-02-19
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, February 20, 2022 11:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Apparently, 6ix, you are mistaken about how much America cares about Russia.



Your mistake is claiming that the ruling class is America.

Just add your bullshit up there to the very, very long list of OUR money they waste every single day.

It's why I'll never work enough in a year to fund it anymore.




Meanwhile, your boy Joe* just released 700,000 terrorists all across America.

Just like the mud in your blood, we'll revisit this in a few years so I can give you a few of the I Told You Sos from the bag.



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Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, February 21, 2022 7:12 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Apparently, 6ix, you are mistaken about how much America cares about Russia.



Your mistake is claiming that the ruling class is America.

Just add your bullshit up there to the very, very long list of OUR money they waste every single day.

It's why I'll never work enough in a year to fund it anymore.




Meanwhile, your boy Joe* just released 700,000 terrorists all across America.

Just like the mud in your blood, we'll revisit this in a few years so I can give you a few of the I Told You Sos from the bag.

You're afraid of what a vaccine might do to you. Afraid of what a Afghan might do to you. Afraid of being poor. Go buy a gun to make yourself feel brave. And don't forget to vote for the frightened guy (who hides his fear with bluster) wanting to withdraw from NATO:

President Trump suggested a move tantamount to destroying NATO: the withdrawal of the United States. Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. There are few things that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia desires more than the weakening of NATO.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220219105015/https://www.nytimes.com/201
9/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 11:00 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Funny that the ONLY interest/input Trump had in the 2016 Republican platform (they didn’t even bother with one in 2020) was on Ukraine. To make it more Russia-friendly. Not a single thing else.

Trump campaign guts GOP’s anti-Russia stance on Ukraine by Josh Rogin, July 18, 2016

The Trump campaign worked behind the scenes last week to make sure the new Republican platform won’t call for giving weapons to Ukraine to fight Russian and rebel forces, contradicting the view of almost all Republican foreign policy leaders in Washington.

Throughout the campaign, Trump has been dismissive of calls for supporting the Ukraine government as it fights an ongoing Russian-led intervention. Trump’s campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, worked as a lobbyist for the Russian-backed former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych for more than a decade.

Still, Republican delegates at last week’s national security committee platform meeting in Cleveland were surprised when the Trump campaign orchestrated a set of events to make sure that the GOP would not pledge to give Ukraine the weapons it has been asking for from the United States.

Inside the meeting, Diana Denman, a platform committee member from Texas who was a Ted Cruz supporter, proposed a platform amendment that would call for maintaining or increasing sanctions against Russia, increasing aid for Ukraine and “providing lethal defensive weapons” to the Ukrainian military.

“Today, the post-Cold War ideal of a ‘Europe whole and free’ is being severely tested by Russia’s ongoing military aggression in Ukraine,” the amendment read. “The Ukrainian people deserve our admiration and support in their struggle.”

Trump staffers in the room, who are not delegates but are there to oversee the process, intervened. By working with pro-Trump delegates, they were able to get the issue tabled while they devised a method to roll back the language.

On the sideline, Denman tried to persuade the Trump staffers not to change the language, but failed. “I was troubled when they put aside my amendment and then watered it down,” Denman told me. “I said, ‘What is your problem with a country that wants to remain free?’ It seems like a simple thing.”

Finally, Trump staffers wrote an amendment to Denman’s amendment that stripped out the platform’s call for “providing lethal defensive weapons” and replaced it with softer language calling for “appropriate assistance.”

That amendment was voted on and passed. When the Republican Party releases its platform Monday, the official Republican party position on arms for Ukraine will be at odds with almost all the party’s national security leaders.

“This is another example of Trump being out of step with GOP leadership and the mainstream in a way that shows he would be dangerous for America and the world,” said Rachel Hoff, another platform committee member who was in the room.

Of course, Trump is not the only politician to oppose sending lethal weapons to Ukraine. President Obama decided not to authorize it, despite recommendations to do so from his top Europe officials in the State Department and the military. The United States has provided Ukraine with non-lethal equipment and aid.

Trump’s view of Russia has always been friendlier than most Republicans. He’s said he would “get along very well” with Vladimir Putin and called it a “great honor” when Putin praised him. Trump has done a lot of business in Russia and has been traveling there since 1987. Last August, he said of Ukraine joining NATO, “I wouldn’t care.” He traveled there in September, and he told Ukrainians their war is “really a problem that affects Europe a lot more than it affects us.”

For Trump, the biggest threat to Europe is not Russia, according to people familiar with his thinking. He believes the United States should focus on helping Europe fight Islamist terrorism and open borders, not confronting Putin. He has called for a reduction of the U.S. commitment to NATO. He simply doesn’t see Russia as a dangerous threat.

For Denman, the Trump campaign’s actions betrayed the U.S. commitment to supporting struggling democracies around the world, which she considers a core Republican value.

“The Ukrainian people are trying to come out of the past and stay free. We owe to those who are fighting for freedom still to give them a helping hand,” she said.

“I’m very passionate and supportive of the Reagan foreign policy of peace through strength.”

Trump too often invokes Ronald Reagan when talking about America’s role in the world. But although Reagan negotiated with the Soviet Union, he also stood up to Russian aggression in Europe and defended democratic principles abroad.

When the platform comes out, Republicans will see how far from the Reagan doctrine their party has drifted, thanks to Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/trump-campaign
-guts-gops-anti-russia-stance-on-ukraine/2016/07/18/98adb3b0-4cf3-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 1:10 PM

THG


US says it has credible information about Russian 'kill list' in potential Ukraine invasion

The US has written to the top United Nations human rights official that it has "credible information" that Russian forces are identifying Ukrainians "to be killed or sent to camps" if it further invades Ukraine and occupies it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-says-it-has-credible-informati
on-about-russian-kill-list-in-potential-ukraine-invasion/ar-AAU81m3?ocid=msedgntp




Correct SECOND. Trump acted as though he was a Russian agent.

T



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Monday, February 21, 2022 2:16 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Russian military claimed early on Monday that troops and border guards engaged in a clash with a “sabotage and reconnaissance group from the territory of Ukraine” inside Russian territory.

Russian President Vladimir Putin publicly stepped up his rhetoric in the Ukraine crisis Monday in a highly choreographed meeting, accusing Kyiv of carrying out acts of aggression and saying he was considering a request to officially recognize the breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine as independent.

Putin also accused the West of threats and blackmail during the previously unscheduled convening of the Russian security council that, in unusually theatrical setting, was shown on television.

“Russia has always tried to resolve all conflicts by peaceful means. Nevertheless, the Kyiv authorities conducted two punitive operations in these territories [Donetsk and Luhansk], and it seems that we are now witnessing an escalation for the third time,” Putin said, without further elaborating or providing specifics.

CNN has not independently verified reports of a clash inside Russia’s territory. Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba denied a clash occurred, saying on Twitter, “I categorically refute the disinformation of the Russian Federation.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/21/europe/russia-ukraine-tensions-monday-i
ntl/index.html


Creating an independent Ukraine was 'madness'

CNN's Nic Robertson says that Russian President Vladimir Putin, during a made-for-TV speech from the Kremlin, made his case that Ukraine was always a part of Russia, which indicates that Putin is looking to reacquire all of Ukraine.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/02/21/putin-russia-ukraine-histo
ry-robertson-sot-vpx.cnn


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 2:41 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


What's at stake in Ukraine is the direction of human history

Humanity's greatest political achievement has been the decline of war. That is now in jeopardy.

Yuval Noah Harari, Sat, Feb 12, 2022 - 5:50 AM

AT the heart of the Ukraine crisis lies a fundamental question about the nature of history and the nature of humanity: is change possible? Can humans change the way they behave, or does history repeat itself endlessly, with humans forever condemned to reenact past tragedies without changing anything except the decor?

One school of thought firmly denies the possibility of change. It argues that the world is a jungle, that the strong prey upon the weak and that the only thing preventing one country from wolfing down another is military force.

This is how it always was, and this is how it always will be. Those who don't believe in the law of the jungle are not just deluding themselves, but are putting their very existence at risk. They will not survive long.

Another school of thought argues that the so-called law of the jungle isn't a natural law at all. Humans made it, and humans can change it. Contrary to popular misconceptions, the first clear evidence for organised warfare appears in the archaeological record only 13,000 years ago.

Even after that date there have been many periods devoid of archaeological evidence for war. Unlike gravity, war isn't a fundamental force of nature. Its intensity and existence depend on underlying technological, economic and cultural factors. As these factors change, so does war.

Evidence of such change is all around us. Over the past few generations, nuclear weapons have turned war between superpowers into a mad act of collective suicide, forcing the most powerful nations on Earth to find less violent ways to resolve conflict.

Whereas great-power wars, such as the second Punic war or the second world war, have been a salient feature for much of history, in the last seven decades there has been no direct war between superpowers.

During the same period, the global economy has been transformed from one based on materials to one based on knowledge. Where once the main sources of wealth were material assets such as gold mines, wheat fields and oil wells, today the main source of wealth is knowledge. And whereas you can seize oil fields by force, you cannot acquire knowledge that way. The profitability of conquest has declined as a result.

Finally, a tectonic shift has taken place in global culture. Many elites in history - Hun chieftains, Viking jarls and Roman patricians, for example - viewed war positively. Rulers from Sargon the Great to Benito Mussolini sought to immortalise themselves by conquest (and artists such as Homer and Shakespeare happily obliged such fancies). Other elites, such as the Christian church, viewed war as evil but inevitable.

In the past few generations, however, for the first time in history the world became dominated by elites who see war as both evil and avoidable. Even the likes of George W Bush and Donald Trump, not to mention the Merkels and Arderns of the world, are very different types of politicians than Atilla the Hun or Alaric the Goth.

They usually come to power with dreams of domestic reforms rather than foreign conquests. While in the realm of art and thought, most of the leading lights - from Pablo Picasso to Stanley Kubrick - are better known for depicting the senseless horrors of combat than for glorifying its architects.

As a result of all these changes, most governments stopped seeing wars of aggression as an acceptable tool to advance their interests, and most nations stopped fantasising about conquering and annexing their neighbours. It is simply not true that military force alone prevents Brazil from conquering Uruguay or prevents Spain from invading Morocco.

The parameters of peace

The decline of war is evident in numerous statistics. Since 1945, it has become relatively rare for international borders to be redrawn by foreign invasion, and not a single internationally recognised country has been completely wiped off the map by external conquest. There has been no shortage of other types of conflicts, such as civil wars and insurgencies.

But even when taking all types of conflict into account, in the first two decades of the 21st century human violence has killed fewer people than suicide, car accidents or obesity-related diseases. Gunpowder has become less lethal than sugar.

Scholars argue back and forth about the exact statistics, but it is important to look beyond the maths. The decline of war has been a psychological as well as statistical phenomenon. Its most important feature has been a major change in the very meaning of the term "peace".

For most of history, peace meant only "the temporary absence of war". When people in 1913 said that there was peace between France and Germany, they meant that the French and German armies were not clashing directly, but everybody knew that a war between them might nevertheless erupt at any moment. In recent decades "peace" has come to mean "the implausibility of war". For many countries, being invaded and conquered by the neighbours has become almost inconceivable. I live in the Middle East, so I know perfectly well that there are exceptions to these trends. But recognising the trends is at least as important as being able to point out the exceptions.

The "new peace" hasn't been a statistical fluke or hippie fantasy. It has been reflected most clearly in coldly-calculated budgets. In recent decades governments around the world have felt safe enough to spend an average of only about 6.5 per cent of their budgets on their armed forces, while spending far more on education, health care and welfare.

We tend to take it for granted, but it is an astonishing novelty in human history. For thousands of years, military expenditure was by far the biggest item on the budget of every prince, khan, sultan and emperor. They hardly spent a penny on education or medical help for the masses.

The decline of war didn't result from a divine miracle or from a change in the laws of nature. It resulted from humans making better choices. It is arguably the greatest political and moral achievement of modern civilisation. Unfortunately, the fact that it stems from human choice also means that it is reversible.


Technology, economics and culture continue to change. The rise of cyber weapons, AI-driven economies and newly militaristic cultures could result in a new era of war, worse than anything we have seen before. To enjoy peace, we need almost everyone to make good choices. By contrast, a poor choice by just one side can lead to war.

This is why the Russian threat to invade Ukraine should concern every person on Earth. If it again becomes normative for powerful countries to wolf down their weaker neighbours, it would affect the way people all over the world feel and behave.

The first and most obvious result of a return to the law of the jungle would be a sharp increase in military spending at the expense of everything else. The money that should go to teachers, nurses and social workers would instead go to tanks, missiles and cyber weapons.

A return to the jungle would also undermine global co-operation on problems such as preventing catastrophic climate change or regulating disruptive technologies such as artificial intelligence and genetic engineering. It isn't easy to work alongside countries that are preparing to eliminate you.

And as both climate change and an AI arms race accelerate, the threat of armed conflict will only increase further, closing a vicious circle that may well doom our species.

History's direction

If you believe that historic change is impossible, and that humanity never left the jungle and never will, the only choice left is whether to play the part of predator or prey. Given such a choice, most leaders would prefer to go down in history as alpha predators, and add their names to the grim list of conquerors that unfortunate pupils are condemned to memorise for their history exams.

But maybe change is possible? Maybe the law of the jungle is a choice rather than an inevitability? If so, any leader who chooses to conquer a neighbour will get a special place in humanity's memory, far worse than your run-of-the-mill Tamerlane. He will go down in history as the man who ruined our greatest achievement. Just when we thought we were out of the jungle, he pulled us back in.

I don't know what will happen in Ukraine. But as a historian I do believe in the possibility of change. I don't think this is naivety - it's realism. The only constant of human history is change. And that's something that perhaps we can learn from the Ukrainians.

For many generations, Ukrainians knew little but tyranny and violence. They endured two centuries of tsarist autocracy (which finally collapsed amidst the cataclysm of the first world war). A brief attempt at independence was quickly crushed by the Red Army that re-established Russian rule. Ukrainians then lived through the terrible man-made famine of the Holodomor, Stalinist terror, Nazi occupation and decades of soul-crushing Communist dictatorship. When the Soviet Union collapsed, history seemed to guarantee that Ukrainians would again go down the path of brutal tyranny - what else did they know?

But they chose differently. Despite history, despite grinding poverty and despite seemingly insurmountable obstacles, Ukrainians established a democracy. In Ukraine, unlike in Russia and Belarus, opposition candidates repeatedly replaced incumbents.

When faced with the threat of autocracy in 2004 and 2013, Ukrainians twice rose in revolt to defend their freedom. Their democracy is a new thing. So is the "new peace". Both are fragile, and may not last long. But both are possible, and may strike deep roots. Every old thing was once new. It all comes down to human choices.

© Yuval Noah Harari 2022

https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/opinion/whats-at-stake-in-ukraine-is-
the-direction-of-human-history


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 2:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Biden* and BoJo* are really trying to provoke a response from Russia so they can impose sanctions and kill Nordstream2. This whole farce isn't about Ukraine at all. USA and UK (and NATO) are more than willing to throw Ukraine under the bus. After all, look how they abandoned Kiev (shredded files, destroyed computers, yanked their staff) and pulled their trainers and withdrew their CIA post all the way back to Brussels.


What they're trying to do is to drive a wedge between Germany and Russia, torpedo German competitiveness, and pull everyone back into the NATO fold, and Germany is spineless enough to let them do it.

This is a replay of GWB's "moving goalposts" for Saddam... sanctions will be applied if Russia invades Ukraine... well, if Russia does ANYTHING... oh,no, for troops in it's territory... oh no, for Navalny...

Sanctions are going to be applied no matter what Russia does, or doesn't do. That's the point.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 3:01 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Biden* and BoJo*

Luckily, Putin made it absolutely clear that a nation called Ukraine should never have existed by saying that Creating an independent Ukraine was 'madness'

Russian President Vladimir Putin, during a made-for-TV speech from the Kremlin, made his case that Ukraine was always a part of Russia, which indicates that Putin is looking to reacquire all of Ukraine.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/02/21/putin-russia-ukraine-histo
ry-robertson-sot-vpx.cnn


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 3:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Biden* and BoJo*

Luckily, Putin made it absolutely clear that a nation called Ukraine should never have existed by saying that Creating an independent Ukraine was 'madness'

Russian President Vladimir Putin, during a made-for-TV speech from the Kremlin, made his case that Ukraine was always a part of Russia, which indicates that Putin is looking to reacquire all of Ukraine.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/02/21/putin-russia-ukraine-histo
ry-robertson-sot-vpx.cnn


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

We'll see.

The only part of Ukraine that was important to Russia was Crimea. Sevastopol, specifically.

Why acquire a dumpster fire? It would be an economic, political, and security headache.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 3:42 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Biden* and BoJo*

Luckily, Putin made it absolutely clear that a nation called Ukraine should never have existed by saying that Creating an independent Ukraine was 'madness'

Russian President Vladimir Putin, during a made-for-TV speech from the Kremlin, made his case that Ukraine was always a part of Russia, which indicates that Putin is looking to reacquire all of Ukraine.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/02/21/putin-russia-ukraine-histo
ry-robertson-sot-vpx.cnn


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

We'll see.

The only part of Ukraine that was important to Russia was Crimea. Sevastopol, specifically.

Why acquire a dumpster fire? It would be an economic, political, and security headache.

I'm sure there are parts of Russia that Russia would be better off without, but since Putin isn't de-annexing those parts he should either annex all of Ukraine or leave it all alone and stop saying Ukraine is part of Russia. But who knows if Putin can control himself? Naked Greed: Putin nothing more than a gangster

https://www.theledger.com/story/opinion/columns/2022/01/23/naked-greed
-putin-nothing-more-than-gangster/6595895001
/

Under dictatorships, the worst tendencies of capitalism run amok. Instead of acting in good faith, working through transparent contracts with others, and being held to legal standards, there’s a free-for-all mêlée of snatching up everything in sight: naked greed. Dictators and oligarchies favor one set of grabbers over another. Instead of settling wrangles in a courtroom, the disputants simply pay off the powers that be and have their competitors jailed – or worse. And they do not reinvest.

When the old USSR failed (for reasons too complex to go into in a short essay), the rotten old regime was replaced by a rotten – but quite different – new one. Rule of law had collapsed, and the Russian nation increasingly owed any stability it had to a class of organized crime combines assembled to steal what riches remained. Instead of focusing on honest competition and productivity (the mainstays of classical capitalism) there was a violent scramble for advantage - more Al Capone than Adam Smith.

The problem is that there’s only so much to rip off. As productivity drops (as it must, where there’s little incentive to stay in a rigged game) the savage battle for what remains has smaller and smaller rewards. So, they turn outward. “Kleptocracies” – where theft replaces honest yield – almost always turn to conquest. We’re reminded not of Caesar, but of Caligula. As world figure, Vladimir Putin plays as a dreadful George Washington and much better as “Scarface.”

The Kremlin, these days, looks a lot less like the august Roman Senate and a good bit more like the “Bada Bing” Club - snarling goodfellas with broken noses leering over a map of Eastern Europe, shoving markers around with their sawed-off shotguns and looking to roll into new territories, guns blazing.

Putin, as with Capone, is trapped. There’s nothing left to steal “back home.” What Putin and Capone share is that they were and are basically running complex pyramid schemes to stay in power – paying off supporters with the cash flow from earlier victims (aka “investors”). This kind of cycle has only one endpoint. It blows up in their faces if they cannot keep up. Expand or die.

There is little question of Putin’s intentions, which are out of his hands, anyway – he has people to pay off. Capone eventually met his end by going so far off the rails that the highest authorities took an interest, and the hope is that Putin has inflamed the same kind of angst in the international community. Capone is reported to have been a charming guy, when dealing with the opposition. Putin is, too. He’s a suave, smooth-talking international racketeer, but a mobster all the same.

All of this would be a minor issue, generally, except for the fact that this is the Russian Federation, not a local gang, and they have The Bomb. If Al Capone had had nuclear devices fighting for booze turf in Chicago in the 20’s, the Great Lakes region might be a radioactive desert.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 4:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
You're afraid of what a vaccine might do to you.



No I'm not, because I'll never take it. You're the one who has something to be afraid of, mudblood.

Quote:

Afraid of what a Afghan might do to you.


"An" Afghan, dummy.

And no I'm not. I don't live in a Democrat ran shithole. BLM wasn't even a thing around these parts.

Quote:

Afraid of being poor.


No I'm not. I'm better off than a great majority of Americans are.

Quote:

Go buy a gun to make yourself feel brave.


I already have one. I never take it out of the house because because I'm not a coward like you are.

Quote:

And don't forget to vote for the frightened guy (who hides his fear with bluster) wanting to withdraw from NATO:


You'd vote Trudeau for US President, you fucking goon.

Go eat a dick, brownshirt.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, February 21, 2022 4:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

The Crisis in Ukraine Is Not About Ukraine. It's About Germany
Mike Whitney • February 11, 2022

The primordial interest of the United States, over which for centuries we have fought wars– the First, the Second and Cold Wars– has been the relationship between Germany and Russia, because united there, they’re the only force that could threaten us. And to make sure that that doesn’t happen.” George Friedman, STRATFOR CEO at The Chicago Council on Foreign Affairs

The Ukrainian crisis has nothing to do with Ukraine. It’s about Germany and, in particular, a pipeline that connects Germany to Russia called Nord Stream 2. Washington sees the pipeline as a threat to its primacy in Europe and has tried to sabotage the project at every turn. Even so, Nord Stream has pushed ahead and is now fully-operational and ready-to-go. Once German regulators provide the final certification, the gas deliveries will begin. German homeowners and businesses will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy while Russia will see a significant boost to their gas revenues. It’s a win-win situation for both parties.

The US Foreign Policy establishment is not happy about these developments. They don’t want Germany to become more dependent on Russian gas because commerce builds trust and trust leads to the expansion of trade. As relations grow warmer, more trade barriers are lifted, regulations are eased, travel and tourism increase, and a new security architecture evolves. In a world where Germany and Russia are friends and trading partners, there is no need for US military bases, no need for expensive US-made weapons and missile systems, and no need for NATO. There’s also no need to transact energy deals in US Dollars or to stockpile US Treasuries to balance accounts. Transactions between business partners can be conducted in their own currencies which is bound to precipitate a sharp decline in the value of the dollar and a dramatic shift in economic power This is why the Biden administration opposes Nord Stream. It’s not just a pipeline, it’s a window into the future; a future in which Europe and Asia are drawn closer together into a massive free trade zone that increases their mutual power and prosperity while leaving the US on the outside looking in. Warmer relations between Germany and Russia signal an end to the “unipolar” world order the US has overseen for the last 75 years. A German-Russo alliance threatens to hasten the decline of the Superpower that is presently inching closer to the abyss. This is why Washington is determined to do everything it can to sabotage Nord Stream and keep Germany within its orbit. It’s a matter of survival.

That’s where Ukraine comes into the picture. Ukraine is Washington’s ‘weapon of choice’ for torpedoing Nord Stream and putting a wedge between Germany and Russia. The strategy is taken from page one of the US Foreign Policy Handbook under the rubric: Divide and Rule. Washington needs to create the perception that Russia poses a security threat to Europe. That’s the goal. They need to show that Putin is a bloodthirsty aggressor with a hair-trigger temper who cannot be trusted. To that end, the media has been given the assignment of reiterating over and over again, “Russia is planning to invade Ukraine.” What’s left unsaid is that Russia has not invaded any country since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and that the US has invaded or toppled regimes in more than 50 countries in the same period of time, and that the US maintains over 800 military bases in countries around the world None of this is reported by the media, instead the focus is on “evil Putin” who has amassed an estimated 100,000 troops along the Ukrainian border threatening to plunge all of Europe into another bloody war.

All of the hysterical war propaganda is created with the intention of manufacturing a crisis that can be used to isolate, demonize and, ultimately, splinter Russia into smaller units. The real target, however, is not Russia, but Germany. Check out this excerpt from an article by Michael Hudson at The Unz Review:

“The only way left for U.S. diplomats to block European purchases is to goad Russia into a military response and then claim that avenging this response outweighs any purely national economic interest. As hawkish Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Victoria Nuland, explained in a State Department press briefing on January 27: “If Russia invades Ukraine one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.” (“America’s Real Adversaries Are Its European and Other Allies”, The Unz Review)

There it is in black and white. The Biden team wants to “goad Russia into a military response” in order to sabotage NordStream. That implies there will be some kind of provocation designed to induce Putin to send his troops across the border to defend the ethnic Russians in the eastern part of the country. If Putin takes the bait, the response would be swift and harsh. The media will excoriate the action as a threat to all of Europe while leaders around the world will denounce Putin as the “new Hitler”. This is Washington’s strategy in a nutshell, and the whole production is being orchestrated with one goal in mind; to make it politically impossible for the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz to wave NordStream through the final approval process.

Given what we know about Washington’s opposition to Nord Stream, readers may wonder why earlier in the year the Biden administration lobbied Congress NOT to impose more sanctions on the project. The answer to that question is simple: Domestic politics. Germany is currently decommissioning its nuclear power plants and needs natural gas to make up for the energy shortfall. Also, the threat of economic sanctions is a “turn-off” for Germans who see them as a sign of foreign meddling. “Why is the United States interfering in our energy decisions,” asks the average German. “Washington should mind its own business and stay out of ours.” This is precisely the response one would expect from any reasonable person.

Then, there’s this from Al Jazeera:

“Germans in the majority support the project, it is only parts of the elite and media who are against the pipeline…

“The more the US talks about sanctioning or criticizes the project, the more it becomes popular in German society,” said Stefan Meister, a Russia and eastern Europe expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations.” (“Nord Stream 2: Why Russia’s pipeline to Europe divides the West”, AlJazeera)

So, public opinion is solidly behind Nord Stream which helps to explain why Washington settled on a new approach. Sanctions are not going to work, so Uncle Sam has flipped to Plan B: Create a big enough external threat that Germany will be forced to block the opening of the pipeline. Frankly, the strategy smacks of desperation, but you have to be impressed by Washington’s perseverance. They might be down by 5 runs in the bottom of the 9th, but they haven’t thrown in the towel just yet. They’re going to give it one last shot and see if they can make some headway.

On Monday, President Biden held his first joint-press conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz at the White House. The ballyhoo surrounding the event was simply unprecedented. Everything was orchestrated to manufacture a “crisis atmosphere” that Biden used to pressure the chancellor in the direction of US policy. Earlier in the week, White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki repeatedly said that a “Russian invasion was imminent.” Her comments were followed by State Department flak Nick Price opining that the Intel agencies had provided him with details of an alleged Russian-backed “false flag” operation they expected to take place in the near future in east Ukraine. Price’s warning was followed on Sunday morning by national security advisor Jake Sullivan claiming that a Russian invasion could happen at any time maybe “even tomorrow.” This was just days after Bloomberg News agency had published its sensational and utterly-false headline that “Russia Invades Ukraine”.

Can you see the pattern here? Can you see how these baseless claims were all used to apply pressure to the unsuspecting German chancellor who seemed oblivious to the campaign that was aimed at him?

As one might expect, the final blow was delivered by the American president himself. During the press conference Biden stated emphatically that,

“If Russia invades … there will no longer [be] a Nord Stream 2.. We will bring an end to it.”

So, now Washington sets policy for Germany???

What insufferable arrogance!

The German chancellor was taken aback by Biden’s comments which clearly were not part of the original script. Even so, Scholz never agreed to cancel Nord Stream and refused to even mention the pipeline by name. If Biden thought he could sandbag the leader of the world’s third biggest economy by cornering him in a public forum, he guessed wrong. Germany remains committed to launching Nord Stream regardless of potential flare-ups in far-flung Ukraine. But that could change at any time. After all, who knows what incitements Washington might be planning in the near future? Who knows how many lives they are prepared to sacrifice in order to put a wedge between Germany and Russia? Who knows what risks Biden is willing to take to slow America’s decline and prevent a new “polycentric” world order from emerging? Anything could happen in the weeks ahead. Anything.

For now, Germany is in the catbird seat. It’s up to Scholz to decide how the matter will be settled. Will he implement the policy that best serves the interests of the German people or will he cave in to Biden’s relentless arm twisting? Will he chart a new course that strengthens new alliances in the bustling Eurasian corridor or will he throw his support behind Washington’s crazed geopolitical ambitions? Will he accept Germany’s pivotal role in a new world order— in which many emerging centers of power share equally in global governance and where the leadership remains unflinchingly committed to multilateralism, peaceful development and security for all– or will he try to prop up the tattered post-War system that has clearly outlived its shelf-life?

One thing is certain; whatever Germany decides is bound to affect us all.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 4:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Update(2:30pmET): It's official: Putin has confirmed the change of status recognition while warning Kiev and the West that Russia's military will act against any further aggression. He warned that Ukraine's government must now halt all military actions against Donbas or whatever happens next will be on them.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 4:51 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


This is all the Biden* Administration's fault.

All of it.

Whatever happens is on Democrats.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Monday, February 21, 2022 5:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

The Ukrainian crisis has nothing to do with Ukraine. It’s about Germany and, in particular, a pipeline that connects Germany to Russia called Nord Stream 2. Washington sees the pipeline as a threat to its primacy in Europe and has tried to sabotage the project at every turn. Even so, Nord Stream has pushed ahead and is now fully-operational and ready-to-go. Once German regulators provide the final certification, the gas deliveries will begin. German homeowners and businesses will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy while Russia will see a significant boost to their gas revenues. It’s a win-win situation for both parties.

https://www.eurasiareview.com/16022022-the-crisis-in-ukraine-is-not-ab
out-ukraine-its-about-germany-oped
/

Meanwhile, in the real world:

The Nord Stream-2 project is expected to directly transport natural gas from Russia to Germany through the Baltic Sea. Ukraine has hitherto acted as the “gatekeeper” for the transit of energy resources from Russia to Europe and bypassing this route would lead to a loss of approximately US$2-3 billion in revenue in transit fees per year[ii], thereby impacting the fragile Ukrainian economy. Geopolitically, it is seen as an attempt to weaken Ukraine’s leverage in its on-going political crisis with Russia. While Russia and Ukraine have signed a five-year gas-transit agreement and German Chancellor Angela Merkel has insisted that gas must continue to flow through Ukraine[iii], the volume of natural gas transported through this route is expected to reduce once Nord Stream-2 becomes operational. Moreover, taken in conjunction with the TurkStream pipeline - which will transport natural gas via the Black Sea from Russia to Turkey to Europe through Bulgaria - it will further diminish the reliance on Ukrainian natural gas corridors.

The former Soviet bloc countries such as the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Croatia – all dependent on Russian gas – oppose the Nord Stream-2 pipeline. These countries have raised concerns over two primary issues – first, is probable loss of transit fees if the energy supplies from Russia are diverted to the Nord Stream-2. Second, possible increase in the Russian influence on the European continent would prevent any formulation of comprehensive European policy on Russia. With Germany pressing ahead with the construction of the pipeline, these member states have committed themselves to diversification of energy resources. Member states like Poland and Lithuania have deepened their partnership with the US in LNG and constructed LNG terminals at Swinoujscie and Klaipeda respectively. Many of these member states have also joined the Three Seas Initiative[xxvii] which is primarily aimed at reducing dependence on Russian gas in Central and Eastern Europe.

To address some of the concerns of EU member states and the US, Germany is expected to offer some regulatory mechanisms which could include first, a mechanism that allows Germany to ‘shut-off’ Nord Stream-2 in case Russia puts pressure on Ukraine by cutting transit supplies or breach its treaty with Ukraine over energy supplies. Second, it could support the construction of LNG terminals for US LNG import to Europe as an alternate energy supplier.[xxix] However, the questions remain if these mechanisms will deliver in practice.

https://www.icwa.in/show_content.php?lang=1&level=3&ls_id=5896
&lid=4081#skipCont


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 6:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Question: Who asked for Nord Stream 2?

Answer: Angela Merkel

Quote:

Nord stream 2 is a trap pf Germany's own making

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/12/05/nord-stream
-2-is-a-trap-of-germanys-own-making
/

Even in 2015, Germany was willing to throw Ukraine under the bus.





-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 7:08 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Question: Who asked for Nord Stream 2?

Answer: Angela Merkel

Quote:

Nord stream 2 is a trap pf Germany's own making

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/12/05/nord-stream
-2-is-a-trap-of-germanys-own-making
/

Even in 2015, Germany was willing to throw Ukraine under the bus.

From your article: Nord Stream 2 has been contentious since its inception in 2015 because it will deprive Ukraine of most of the estimated $2bn it earns annually in gas transit fees. It is opposed by the United States, while most of Eastern Europe is also against it. Concern has also been expressed by France, the U.K., Sweden, and Canada, and last month lawmakers in the German and European parliaments signed a letter to Angela Merkel asking her to stop the pipeline. Over the past week, all three candidates to replace Ms Merkel as leader of her Christian Democratic party spoke out against the pipeline, as have senior Social Democrats and Greens.

Looks like a good deal for . . . Germany. Russia paid Germany for a million tons of pipeline steel and machinery which kept German industry busy. Russia can only get its money back if Germany buys Russian natural gas. Too bad for Russia if Germany never "certifies" Nord Stream 2 for operation.

Maybe Russia will force Germany to certify and pay by . . . cutting off the gas flowing through Ukraine and then to Germany. Who knows?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 8:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Apparently Merkel was in a "fuck Ukraine and fuck the EU/USA" mood when she agitated for NS2. She was representing German interests


She was so interested in NS2 that she made all kinds of promises to Putin that she didn't keep: that NS2 wouldn't become a political football )it did) and that it wouldn't be subject to the Third Energy Package (it was)
The collective west had a habit of breaking promises!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 8:43 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Apparently Merkel was in a "fuck Ukraine and fuck the EU/USA" mood when she agitated for NS2. She was representing German interests


She was so interested in NS2 that she made all kinds of promises to Putin that she didn't keep: that NS2 wouldn't become a political football )it did) and that it wouldn't be subject to the Third Energy Package (it was)
The collective west had a habit of breaking promises!

When a politician's career ends, as Merkel's did, their promises end, unless there is a treaty ratified by The Bundestag. Putin better have a signed piece o' paper from The Bundestag, or else promises he thinks Merkel made to him are now dead letters. That would make Putin a sucker for paying all that money to Germany to build the Nord Stream 2 pipeline and then he gets nothing back because Merkel left town. He's gonna feel cheated if Germany doesn't certify that pipeline to operate. He'll kick the hell out of Ukraine for what Germany did. Nord Stream 2 will be Boondoggle 2.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 9:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So, when Obama left office, does that mean NATO ended?
When Billy left office, did NAFTA end?

Yipee!!

****

Signed and ratified contracts, treaties, and agreements are agreements between nations, not agreements between signatories. Russia, so far as I know, has not broken any treaties,agreements, or contracts. The USA OTOH has broken dozens in recent years, hundreds throughout it's history (starting with the various treaties they signed with the natives).

There is a reason why Russia says the USA is "not agreement capable". Keep doing that, and after a,while you get a reputation as being underhanded and unreliable.

Maybe the USA could get away with that in it's "sphere of unfluence" and during the "unipolar moment" but with economic and military power equalizing between the USA and the Russia/China combine, the USA is going to have to learn to behave like a normal nation, not an imperial power.

I have no hope of changing your mind about anything, altho I do find it weird that you would be advocating for war seeing as it was war that turned you into a freak

I just hope that others will be more informed.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 10:10 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, when Obama left office, does that mean NATO ended?
When Billy left office, did NAFTA end?

Yipee!!

A real example, which may scare the hell out of you, Signym. Depends on whether an agreement with the USA means much. I know Russia's promises are worthless.

Why Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons — and what that means in an invasion by Russia

Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.

Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.

In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.

Now, that agreement is front and center again.

The narrative in Ukraine, publicly is: We had the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal, we gave it up for this signed piece of paper, and look what happened.

And it really doesn't look good for the international non-proliferation regime. Because if you have a country that disarms and then becomes a target of such a threat and a victim of such a threat at the hands of a nuclear-armed country, it just sends a really wrong signal to other countries that might want to pursue nuclear weapons.


More at https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082124528/ukraine-russia-putin-invasio
n


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 10:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


More BS from SECOND. Let's not forget that the USA and NGOs engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected President of Ukraine, and Ukraine's been going downhill since then.

Like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iran and pretty much every nation the USA touched ever since WWII.

Kiev made the mistake of shelling the Donbas.

I imagine the pipeline thru Ukraine wl be shut down.

Will China recognize the DPR/LPR?

Will China take any lessons re:Taiwan from this incident?


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Monday, February 21, 2022 11:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
More BS from SECOND. Let's not forget that the USA and NGOs engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected President of Ukraine, and Ukraine's been going downhill since then.

Like Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iran and pretty much every nation the USA touched ever since WWII.

Russia guaranteed Ukraine's independence in exchange for Ukraine giving up thousands of nukes. The guarantee was mobilized for the first time on March 4, 2014. So there was a meeting of the signatories of the Budapest Memorandum that was called by Ukraine and it did take place in Paris. And the foreign minister of the Russian Federation, Sergey Lavrov, who was in Paris at the time, simply did not show up. He wouldn't even come to the meeting in connection with the memorandum.

Russia argues that it signed memorandum with a different government, not with this "illegitimate" one. But that, of course, does not stand to any international legal kind of criteria. You don't sign agreements with the government, you sign it with the country.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082124528/ukraine-russia-putin-invasio
n


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, February 21, 2022 11:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Oh, weren't you just posting that once a government changes hands, then all prior agreements are void? Or did you give up on that point?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 12:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Democrats are able to get away with War because they can always say it's for humanitarian reasons.

Any Democrat that is pushing for war with Russia right now is just puppets for the NeoCon warmongers in Washington that are so hated by the public that they'd never get any public support for going into WWIII.


And the end of the day, who knows?

Maybe it was really Dick Cheney who was puppettering Fauci and paying the Chinese to unleash Covid so they could hand the Presidency to Joe Biden* and get the war started that they wanted back in 2017.

I mean really... What's 4 more years to them when they were able to fuck up the economy and make the plebs weaker anyhow. Just a tiny road bump.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:03 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh, weren't you just posting that once a government changes hands, then all prior agreements are void? Or did you give up on that point?

No. You failed the comprehension test. Putin pretends he doesn't comprehend the promise Russia made to Ukraine in exchange for thousands of H-bombs. The promise, the Budapest Memorandum, is well known, but Putin keeps imagining new versions, which change every day, that only he knows about.

Budapest Memorandum
https://www.google.com/search?q=Budapest+Memorandum

Budapest Memorandum at 25
Abstract
On December 5, 1994, leaders of the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Russian Federation met in Budapest, Hungary, to pledge security assurances to Ukraine in connection with its accession to the Treaty on the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear-weapons state. The signature of the so-called Budapest Memorandum concluded arduous negotiations that resulted in Ukraine’s agreement to relinquish the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal.

This is part that confuses Putin: The signatories of the memorandum pledged to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders, and to refrain from the use or threat of military force.

https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/budapest-memorandum-25-betwee
n-past-and-future


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:23 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


And YOU posted that the government that Russia signed the agreement with was not the same as the pne that appealed to the agreement, and was therfore void.

Quote:

Russia argues that it signed memorandum with a different government, not with this "illegitimate" one. But that, of course, does not stand to any international legal kind of criteria. You don't sign agreements with the government, you sign it with the country.
That seems to be at odds with your previous post.

Also, let's run a thought experiment: The USA signs an agreement with Mexico having to do with apprehending and extraditing drug barons. Then there is a left-wng military coup in Mexico, which becomes overtly hostile to the USA. Do we still honor the agreement?

I take it that you will no longer use that argument? (Not that I believe anything you post bc you're an inveterate liar.) Let's clear up that point before YOU try and move past it, OK?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 7:08 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And YOU posted that . . .

Signym, I have seen your line of argument in civil trials for breach of contract. Juries are NOT convinced by lawyers like you, Signym. The plain and simple words of the contract hold, no matter what "Signymesque" lawyers for the party breaking the contract say:

Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, pledging to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders, and to refrain from the use or threat of military force.
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/budapest-memorandum-25-betwee
n-past-and-future


Putin and I know there are no juries, no judges, no courtrooms for Putin breaking a contract. He can break contracts, large and small, without facing a civil trial.

I know what happens when a Putinesque businessman loses a major civil trial in the United States. There is bankruptcy. The business goes out of business. Sometimes the businessman kills himself. Maybe Putin will, but I doubt it because there is no system of laws big enough to shutdown Putin's business. Maybe Germany, as one of Putin's largest customers, will shutdown Putin's business for him. Who knows? But I doubt Germany will even cut back their purchases from Putin's business.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And YOU posted that . . .

Signym, I have seen your line of argument in civil trials for breach of contract. Juries are NOT convinced by lawyers like you, Signym. The plain and simple words of the contract hold, no matter what "Signymesque" lawyers for the party breaking the contract say:

Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, pledging to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders, and to refrain from the use or threat of military force.
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/budapest-memorandum-25-betwee
n-past-and-future


Putin and I know there are no juries, no judges, no courtrooms for Putin breaking a contract. He can break contracts, large and small, without facing a civil trial.

I know what happens when a Putinesque businessman loses a major civil trial in the United States. There is bankruptcy. The business goes out of business. Sometimes the businessman kills himself. Maybe Putin will, but I doubt it because there is no system of laws big enough to shutdown Putin's business. Maybe Germany, as one of Putin's largest customers, will shutdown Putin's business for him. Who knows? But I doubt Germany will even cut back their purchases from Putin's business.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

I have been looking for the actual documents of the memorandum, not what people have written "about" it, bc so often what people writ "about" things is plain wrong.

IN THE MEANTIME, YOU made the argument that agreements between Merkel and Putin were not valid because once Merkel left office the agreement was no longer valid.

The same argument has been used to negate the "not one inch eastward" agreement that the NATO nations had with Russia.

Then you yourself torpedoed that argument re: the Budapest Agreement, which YOU hold to be valid despite the violent coup that overthrew the government in Kiev.

So I'm wondering where you stand on that line of argument.
True?
True, but only when it suits your purposes?
False in all cases?

Untie that knot in your head and answer the question. If you can. Bc this is one of the MANY times you've cotradicted yourself fom one post to the next, and it sure would be nice to get a straight and direct answer from you.

Not that I think think will happen, bc you'll post ANYTHING if it suits your war on America.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:28 AM

THG


Harvard economist and former Obama adviser says Russia is 'basically a big gas station' and is otherwise 'incredibly unimportant' in the global economy

Despite Russia's size and wealth in raw materials, its economy is more on-par with Brazil than with nations like Germany, France, and the UK, according to the latest nominal GDP data from the World Bank. According to the World Bank, its economy is weaker than Italy's and South Korea's, two nations with less than half of Russia's population.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/harvard-economist-and-former-o
bama-adviser-says-russia-is-basically-a-big-gas-station-and-is-otherwise-incredibly-unimportant-in-the-global-economy/ar-AAU93UF?ocid=msedgntp




T


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yes, we've heard that refrain before: "Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country"

It doesn't matter if Russia is important to the world economy. (It is, and not just as an energy source but also as a source of food, strategic metals, and minerals, and you'll find out just HOW important it is if Russia decides to withhold its exports,)

The important question, for Russia and Russians is: Is the Russian economy sufficient to sustain RUSSIA?

Russia, unlike China, has been eliminating economic dependence on the west for over 20 years. (China has been leaning heavily on western "markets" to develop their economy.)

AFA GDP is concerned... GDP figures are meaningless bc they include a lot of non-productive activity (ie financialism and trivial services like cappuccino-making). even comparing Germany's GDP to the UK's is flawed, because Germany is a manufacturing economy and the UK's is primarily finacialism (the FIRE sector- Finance, Insurance, Real Estate, which goes up during bubbles and collapses when they do) and has little to do with actual ... yanno... production.

Like the USA, if Britain were to be cut off from the world's productive economies ... the economies that export commodities and finished products... Britain would immediately suffer because they don't make enough to sustain their own people.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:44 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Oh, weren't you just posting that once a government changes hands, then all prior agreements are void? Or did you give up on that point?




Nord Stream 2: Germany halts certification of Russian pipeline

The West showed Tuesday it was ready to target Russia's huge energy industry — even at the risk of hurting itself — after Moscow ordered troops into parts of eastern Ukraine.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nord-stream-2-germany-halts-certi
fication-of-russian-pipeline/ar-AAUa3ai?ocid=msedgntp




Agreements depend on the character of the nation state who signed said agreements. Putin has none. Go Germany...

T



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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 8:57 AM

THG


Germany indicts man for sale of military machinery to Russia

Germany has indicted a businessman on suspicion of breaking arms control laws by helping Russia purchase sophisticated machinery that could be used to make chemical weapons.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germany-indicts-man-for-sale-of-m
ilitary-machinery-to-russia/ar-AAU9RHm?ocid=msedgntp





T


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 9:26 AM

THG


Kremlin admits that a dramatic Security Council meeting on Ukraine was recorded in advance, after people realized a minister's watch showed the wrong time

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/kremlin-admits-that-a-dramatic-se
curity-council-meeting-on-ukraine-was-recorded-in-advance-after-people-realized-a-minister-s-watch-showed-the-wrong-time/ar-AAUabwm?ocid=msedgntp




Putins' propaganda machine gets caught. To funny...

T



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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 9:31 AM

THG


T







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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I have been looking for the actual documents of the memorandum, not what people have written "about" it, bc so often what people writ "about" things is plain wrong.

You didn't try very hard.

Try: https://www.google.com/search?q=budapest+memorandum+1994+full+text

The very first item is UN Treaties: Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb

What does it say?

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume
-3007-I-52241.pdf


That's not all it says. There is more about economic coercion, as in don't coerce Ukraine. I think Putin read the list of things Russia is not to do, then used the list as a "to do" list. Putin is a comedian of the absurd.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


And still, SECOND, you have not answered the question.

It's an imprtant question bc the USA has used it to abrogate all kinds of treaties, and to break all kinds of promises.

So, what say ye?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:04 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


“No lows too low, no lies too blatant, no red lines too red to cross,” Lithuanian Prime Minister Ingrida Simonyte said in summing up the political disgust felt from Europe to North America and democracies hugging Russia’s borders in Asia, such as Japan and South Korea.

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2022/02/23/2003773601

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And still, SECOND, you have not answered the question.

It's an imprtant question bc the USA has used it to abrogate all kinds of treaties, and to break all kinds of promises.

So, what say ye?

I say you are using Whataboutism. Soviet propaganda was What about America doing this? What about doing that? The Soviet Union is gone, but the Russian Whataboutism lingers on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 1:59 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Second's finally getting that war that he's been wanting.

Whatever name Halliburton is going by these days is very happy.

Democrats are cancer.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:59 PM

THG


US embassy trolls Russia with meme after Putin's revisionist history rant on why Ukraine is not a real country

The US Embassy in Kyiv trolled Putin with a meme about the history of Kyiv and Moscow.

Kyiv was founded centuries before Moscow, and was once at the center of a political federation that Russia's name is derived from.

Putin has repeatedly suggested that Ukraine is not a real country.

The US embassy in Kyiv trolled Russia with a meme on Tuesday after President Vladimir Putin went on revisionist history tirade on why Ukraine is not a real country.

A photo posted to Twitter by the embassy shows four photos of religious sites in Kyiv from the years 996 to 1108. Underneath is four photos of a forest with "Moscow" written underneath and marked with the same timeline.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-embassy-trolls-russia-with-mem
e-after-putin-s-revisionist-history-rant-on-why-ukraine-is-not-a-real-country/ar-AAUaFLF?ocid=msedgntp




T


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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 3:02 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Second's finally getting that war that he's been wanting.

Whatever name Halliburton is going by these days is very happy.

Democrats are cancer.

Referring to Vladimir Putin, “No lows too low, no lies too blatant, no red lines too red to cross,” Lithuanian Prime Minister Ingrida Simonyte said in summing up the political disgust felt from Europe to North America and democracies hugging Russia’s borders in Asia, such as Japan and South Korea.
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2022/02/23/2003773601

Lithuania was in the Soviet Union. If Putin wants, Lithuania will join the Russian Federation. I don't expect people who defend Trump to understand, but the Lithuanian Prime Minister understood what Putin is doing in Ukraine can happen in Lithuania.

In Lithuania, Russian-speakers make up 15 percent of the entire population; in Latvia 34 percent; and in Estonia the number might be as high as 30 percent.

This has been a major source of worry for the Baltic states, because in the recent past Russia has demonstrated its ability to annex territories and create puppet states in places as disparate as eastern Ukraine, Crimea, Georgia’s South Ossetia and Abkhazia and Moldova’s Transnistria, all while using the ambiguous policies of protecting its compatriots.
https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/14240/compatriot-games-ru
ssian-speaking-minorities-in-the-baltic-states


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 3:08 PM

THG

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Tuesday, February 22, 2022 3:09 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hope you're ready to put your boots on and go to war, Ted.

I won't be joining you. Have fun.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

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