Where Joss blew it by SimonWho

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Where Joss blew it

POSTED BY: SIMONWHO
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 15:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6790
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Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:46 AM

Remember the first scene in Buffy? Cute girl follows a menacing looking guy who breaks into school. Scary noises, girl seeming frightened and then... she bites the man!

As a representation of Buffy, it's almost perfect. Ignoring the fact that none of the main cast are in that bit, this teaser sets up that we're in for a scary show but also one that is going to turn convention on its head.

Now remember the openings of Serenity (the pilot) and The Train Job. Serenity starts with a big battle with spaceships and the Train Job starts with a bar fight, clearly not set on Earth or the present (lots of vague stuff, but the window Mal gets thrown through is the clincher).

Why didn't they (and by they, I mean Joss) got for a beginning with impact? In Serenity they could have worked it a bit differently but The Train Job was really simple: just play it as though they're in 1871, with a Northern oaf mocking Mal and co. They argue and fight in just the same way, leading up to the edge of the cliff, though skipping Mal calling for help from Wash. Then "I'm thinking we'll rise again" and suddenly with no advance warning, there's a damn spaceship appearing behind them!

That's an impact. What we got was mild character stuff - you can have that in the pilot but you've got to do something to grab the audience (and the preview critic's) attention in the first few minutes.

Maybe this oversight was due to the hurried writing of the episode. Maybe it was just because Joss was (by his own admission) blindly assuming that all the other non-creative things were working themselves out and that he didn't have to grab the audience in the same way as he did with Buffy. But it was a mistake.

Or do you disagree?

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:58 AM

STORYMARK

I disagree. I think it's a gross oversimplification to say either that the success of Buffy was due to one scene, or the quick demise of Firefly was due to a lack of such a scene.

Not everything needs to start the same. Lots of successfull shows have started without a twist beginning.

I would have been somewhat dissapointed if Firefly had started in such a way, simply because that's how Buffy and Angel started out - and Joss is far more than a one-trick-pony.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:04 AM

CYBERSNARK

Where Joss blew it:

"Make sure the people buying your show actually want it. That was a big one." --Joss, on lessons learned

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:48 AM

NECROSCAPE

I think right from the get go to lead on the future aspect is a much better way to grab an audience. Otherwise they'd think it's just a western if they're flipping the channels. And if they did sit down to watch the show then they saw the advertisments, you can't hide the plot in your promos. In any case, I think the holographic window was ingenius, could definetly not do without it.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:48 AM

THOLO

I dont think i was all Joss's fault in the first place. Fox didnt trailer it and showed them in wrong order(at different time i might add). they wanted more simpsons crap and didnt get it. so they screwed it up from the get go. it didnt even get a fair try. that is what pisses me off. and then since nobody (beside us) saw firefly, people had no clue what serenity was about. they release serenity in september , one of the worse time of the year to release a movie. i mean come on!! that is why i think firefly/serenity is not at the top of everybodys(besides us) christmas list. word of mouth has worked but it will not be enough i think to pull serenity our of its tail spin.

dont get me wrong i am buying/telling everybody about it, and unless i force it on them(which we cant do) then they just kinda go "huh" and that is the last i hear about it from them. ya know??

we need the star wars expanded universe style for firefly/serenity. comics, books, posters, and heck ruttin card games, anything to boost $$ for the verse. i think then we will see a new tv show or a BDS! but if they wont make it then we cant buy it. it turns to us to make tshirts (and get in trouble for it).that is what lucas wanted to finish the first star wars, mech. rights. and if he could put it on an stick of gum he did. joss may not be able to go that extream but do something. i still think comics are the way to go, and books. posters would be cool too. oh and bedsheets, oh and undeer-roos, oh and uh well never mind, haha

i just hope someone on this board knows joss and tells him to do something, cause we want it and we will support it, as long as he wants to give it to us, uh in a no sly kinda way, hhehe.

thanks for hearing me out.

Keep Flying!!

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:04 PM

SIMONWHO

The thing is, Joss has said that he wasn't paying the right amount of attention to the network. He made a fantastic show, as we all know, but that's not necessarily enough.

I don't think giving your opening episode a big hook at the start is gimicky - most shows do it, they try to intrigue the audience in. And it's not as though this decision only affected what people saw when the show first aired - they would have done test screenings and audience ratings and if those had been more positive, Fox would have put more backing behind the show.

Get people hooked, then you can do the lengthy character study over 7 seasons.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:08 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

The only way in which Joss "blew it" is by trusting FOX in the first place.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:14 PM

ATIGDNG

I don't agree there, I personally am NOT a buffy fan, it is lame and cheesy to me, nothing is convincing. And it is definitly not a serious tv series. The ONLY thing I liked about the first season of buffy was angel.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:02 PM

TRAVELER

Buffy and Firefly are not that much different. But Buffy was made for a younger market. They highschool students and that's who watched it, well besides me. Firefly was aimed at an older audience. So the pace is going to be different. But if you watched both you saw the characters go through changes with the conflicts they faceed. Look what happened to Willow when her lover was killed. So these things would have been in Firefly if it had lasted as long as Buffy. Jayne and River were both changing in the few episodes Joss made.

I'm sure FOX wanted more action, because they turned down "Serenity" and Joss had to come up with "The Train Job". That is where the confusion started. Fox thought they were getting another Buffy, and Joss is not like that. His mind is searching for new concepts. He wanted to do something different. Firefly threw FOX off balance and they panicked, instead of sitting back and really seeing what they had. I have seen this happen at other networks. It could have happened on CBS or NBC. They have done similar mistakes. Rod Serling had a difficult time when he tried to produce a western that made you think. I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I don't think it lasted as long as Firefly. The network wanted a shoot em up western and Serling is not that kind of writer. So you have conflicts when your network is surprized by the content of the program. If Joss does another TV show I would not be surprized if it is totally different from Buffy and Firefly. Joss wants to do a lot of different things. What he will do is what is in front of his brain when he is given the green light again.
And Joss won't know that until it happens.

Traveler

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:43 PM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

{snip}... The Train Job was really simple: just play it as though they're in 1871, with a Northern oaf mocking Mal and co. They argue and fight in just the same way, leading up to the edge of the cliff, though skipping Mal calling for help from Wash. Then "I'm thinking we'll rise again" and suddenly with no advance warning, there's a damn spaceship appearing behind them!

That's an impact. What we got was mild character stuff ... {snip}

I disagree that those changes would make more of an impact, unless you were going for WTF.

Aside from the fact that if Mal didn't make the call first, you'd have no idea who or what the spaceship was there for, much less how they knew to come... There's nothing in Mal's call to Wash that would lead you to assume a spaceship was coming (other than commercials or previews), and even presuming it will be a spaceship making a grand entrance, there's no reason to expect it to come up from below them. But because Mal made the call, when that grand entrance happens, you know exactly who it is and why they're there.

And for Mal's 'rise again' line, as it is, you know exactly what he's talking about and get the joke as he's saying it. If he said it first it'd be more of a 'Huh?.. Oh." as the ship came up. I personally prefer to have some expectation of what is to come, rather than be 'dazzled' by some trick or twist that comes out of nowhere. And remember, Joss's breaking of conventions is only so effective because he also follows them.

Now, personally, I missed the first ten minutes of TTJ when it aired on FOX. (And felt like I had missed a lot more. In fact, I figured I had missed the pilot somehow...) So I can't speak to the first-viewing impact of that scene so much. But I can tell you it was the convention-busting kicking Crow through the engine that earned Firefly a spot on my absolutely-must-not-miss list (despite still being a little bit confused about who and what everyone was).

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:11 PM

BRIDGET

I'm some surprised that anyone would say Joss blew it with Serenity and the Train Job. I was completely prepared not to like Firefly and watch the whole series in one weekend. The first scene of Serenity captivated me and the Train Job is one of my favorite eps.

I think the first scene of Serenity was prefect because it establishes the characters. It is made clear to me, one who would not be quick to like a show about thieves, that these people could've by a turn of fate been heroes.

The Train Job's first scene is a delightful play on the hero made thief by his bold ritual challenging of U Day. Those two scenes made Mal and entirely captivating main character. Changes those scenes and you would've lost me.

(I still can't believe I'm on a Firefly message board.)

"It's my estimation that every man who ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son-bitch or another."

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:23 PM

SIMONWHO

The first scene of Serenity only features Mal and Zoe and takes about 8 minutes to setup the fact that they were on the losing end of a war. The fact that you don't even remember what the real first scene was is definitely suggestive of how impactful it was.

The first scene of The Train Job doesn't suggest Mal or the others are thieves, just that they are independents.

Remember, we're talking about what people think when they see the show for the first time. I am talking about giving a WTF moment - think of all the praise Lost got for it's first scene, which wasn't the crash itself but its aftermath and the brilliantly surprising scene were the guy gets sucked into the jet engine.

Of course we had a similar surprise three years earlier but that came at the end of the episode, not the start. We needed to have a similar level of impact, a WTF? as someone put it.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 12:16 AM

WHOISRIVER

Interesting discussion, SimonWho.

I'll reiterate what others have said and say it's a bit of an over simplification to entirely blame Joss for things, as the network does share the responsibility. However, there is also a strong argument to be made that the reason FOX didn't get behind the show was because they didn't think it could work, let alone would work, at finding an audience.

I was at a shindig a few months ago with somebody who used to work in the TV industry, and they said if they had been handed 'Serenity' (the episode) as a pilot to consider for pickup, they wouldn't have picked it up. Which, coming from a Firefly fan, is interesting.

When your ass is on the line in a TV company, delivering a creatively good TV show which will have a limited audience is a gamble. Especially when you consider Firefly's pilot cost $8.9m to shoot (source: Entertainment Weekly), which at the time was the highest amount of money a pilot had cost. (Lost overtook it).

If it had been on a network more accepting of serial shows - eg HBO or Showtime - I think it would have had much more of a chance of finding viewers prepared to invest time in the show. It was on FOX. FOX's #1 show is American Idol. FOX's model show at the time was Fastlane.

Joss is right, it was a really poor match between show and network, but -- and I think this is the thing Joss has learned -- you have to take into account the network in a big way, or you get cancelled.

--gossi

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Friday, October 20, 2006 12:32 AM

MRBEN

I think we also need to bear in mind everything that Joss needed to do in this "first" episode. Instead of getting a full 90-minute pilot, he's got 45 minutes to play with. He needs to introduce the world, and all the characters, and quickly. 'Fooling' the viewer would've taken additional time, and probably would've instilled confusion over clarity, for the sake of a gimmick.

Serenity (the pilot, not the film) is a much more gentle introduction to the 'verse. We gradually get the space/western theme introduced over time. The opening scene gives us both the impact of action, but also a great introduction to 2 of the characters.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Friday, October 20, 2006 12:46 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I agree with Gossi to a point. I think Fox bears the responsibility for the failure of the show. Fox simply was not a good fit for Firefly, but unfortunately Joss was under contract to them at the time, so Fox got our show. Joss and the cast have all said that Fox execs "did not get the show" and I think that is the biggest problem Joss faced from the outset. Add to this their decision to toss the actual pilot "Serenity" and to make Joss write another.

"The Train Job" started out well, the scene in the bar with the purplebelly kind of set the tone for the show & our crew: they live on the fringe, they lost the War, there is a lot of resentment on both sides, and our crew is outnumbered. Mal flying through the hologram window was a great touch in my opinion. As Simonwho pointed out, one could watch the opening scene of Firefly and think that we are in some old west town, but Mal's passing through a hologram window showed the audience that not everything was as it appeared.

I also agree w/ Gossi that another network would have been a better fit for Firefly. Fox can't get past their formulatic so called "reality" shows, so a cutting edge show like Firefly never stood a chance. I have always believed that had Firefly been on say Showtime or even Sci Fi, networks that would understand a sci fi show & leave Joss to do what he does best, then Firefly would be on today.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Friday, October 20, 2006 4:15 AM

WINDSTRUCK

If there was a TV project that Joss should do right now, it is Heroes.

He should write and direct an episode or two. Jeph Loeb is there.

It would be so much fun seeing him playing with the Japanese teleporter Hiro, and more comic book references in a dialogue would be awesome!

OR AM I OFF TOPIC?

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Friday, October 20, 2006 6:20 AM

MYCROFTXXX

In my opinion, it would not have mattered what broadcast network Firefly would have appeared on. At the time the show was introduced, all three (or five if you count UPN, WBN) were looking for quick and cheap shows they could set up and pull at a moment's notice based on instant viwer polls. Reality TV was at its peak (cheapest kinda show to produce BTW) and some Hollywood pundits were predicting the death of the sitcom. Things haven't chaned much but, according to the same pundits the Reality TV bubble may be on the decline (I sure as heck hope so) and sitcoms are making a comeback. Of course, we still haven't run the course of courtroom dramas yet but give that time too.

Now, name me ONE major broadcast network that's been able to produce a sustainable true Sci-Fi show (space ships required) from the start? As far as I can recall NONE. Star Trek doesn't count because it was the fans that brought it back from the edge of extinction, not the network. I think it is simply a genre they don't know how to handle. This is too bad because I think today's teens EXPECT the human race to be in space "real soon now" because they were born well after Man had entered space and were weaned on Sci-Fi with Star Wars.

The problem is, the folks making the financial decisions at the networks weren't born in the post-moon landing/Star Wars age and thus their view of the world is skewed. Vampires they understand as they grew up with Bella Lugosi and the like but true Sci-fi?, closest they came to were those horrible B-movies from the 50s (George Pal movies and a few other classics excepted.)

Let's hope that some on-the-rise agressive TV executive born in this post-space age finally makes it to a position where they can make the case for the relevance of Sci-Fi for today's viewing public. God knows we are ready.

And, BTW, I am 50 years old but love Sci-Fi in all its forms so I don't necessarily fit the typical teens to 20s demographic but I definitely have the disposable income these same executives strive for in their search for sponsors.

--

Given a choice between the earth-that-is and the 'verse-that-will-be I'll take the latter.

宁静

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Friday, October 20, 2006 7:03 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I have to agree with the others who said that isn't what you want to go for unless the attitude you want to provoke is, "What the fuck?"

I've not seen the first episode of Buffy but what you describes sounds like it was a good opening which fit the show. However the reason I think it sounds good is that it told you exactly where you were and what was going on while being interesting.

Consider what you suggested for the Train Job, it fails to communicate where you are and actively tries to make that unclear. In fact it implies that it is just another completely unoriginal anachronism thing. (Seriously though, why do people think it is so much fun to have Conquistadors fighting against the laser armed natives, Confederates with an air force and Nazis with space travel? Hasn't it all been done enough already?)

It doesn't tell you what is going on, again it tries to screw with your sense of what was going on.

Finally, it might be interesting but that's not a terribly compelling reason to follow something that is obviously going out of its way to make no sense.

If it had begun that way I sure as hell wouldn't have watched.

-

Also, if it did start like that and they tried to retain any sense of continuity of setting that would mean that either it would have to look like 1871 most of the places they went or there would need to be some convoluted explanation as to what made that place special. "So you got into a fight at the reenactment town? We can't take you anywhere."

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Friday, October 20, 2006 7:17 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Bridget:
(I still can't believe I'm on a Firefly message board.)

Get used to it! I've been there too, and I tell you - the addiction doesn't go away!

Simonwho - Thinking there's any little thing that Joss could have adjusted to make this show work is a path to *madness*! It was poorly advertised and presented, end of story. I'm a total Joss fan and love sci-fi, and yet I never even heard of Firefly until the week before Serenity opened.

Fox sucks. That's all there is to it.

to fox!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 7:27 AM

MRSU

I must confess that I don't like the opening of Serenity while the pilot as a whole is one of my favorite episodes. The opening spends too much time on incoherent war action with people we don't yet care about or know who they are. 8 minutes, isn't it? That's too long.

I first watched Firefly on rented DVDs, and I was so confused by the war action I tried restarting the episode couple of times, as I thought I was stumbling on this scene by mistake. Finally DH and me desided to watch Train Job as it was first chronologically - how stupid of us! We were spoiled for "Evil Simon", for "Girl in the box", for "Kaylee's dead" - for everything. :(. But we were that thrown off by the opening of Serenity.

But then I watched 3 deleted scenes from Serenity on DVD-4. It would make much better pilot, IMHO, if those scenes were used instead of 8-min opening. The 1st scene establishes the same 2 characters, the fact they they lost a war, and were betrayed by their own side, in about 1 minute, I think. And in a much more coherent way. Then we go and learn more about the characters and then we learn the rest of the story, via Zoe's retelling, when we really care about them and can understand why it's relevant. Plus as an added bonus it puts a closure on Mal & Simon row - Simon understands why he got punched. It just flows better that way.

Just IMHO, but for what it's worth - if I saw Serenity on TV I would switch the channel somewhere during those 8 minutes. It's just too long to sit through when you don't have a clue what's going on and who are those people.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 7:42 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I know this is going to come across as very condescending, but I can't help but shake my head and wonder about people who can get confused so easily. The opening to "Serenity" (the pilot) is great as is, and so is the opening of "The Train Job." Certainly you must be aware that the deleted scene from "Serenity" with Mal and Zoe among the dead and dying was cut on orders from FOX. What Joss reshot had more of the action they were looking for, it established the war, the fact that Mal was on the losing side, etc. Joss did everything he could to get that pilot aired first, and yet FOX balked and forced him to reinvent the introduction to the 'verse in a one hour show. He did the best he could considering all the restrictions, and to lay the blame at the feet of anyone but the FOX execs is totally ridiculous.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 8:39 AM

MRSU

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
He did the best he could considering all the restrictions, and to lay the blame at the feet of anyone but the FOX execs is totally ridiculous.

What can I say? Stupid FOX. Yes, now I know that the original opening was changed by request from FOX. But in my eyes the original version of the pilot, the way how Joss & Co envisioned it first, was perfect. The new opening made it weaker, IMHO, and TTJ is still one of my least favorite episodes and way inferior to the pilot in my eyes.
I don't blame Joss for that, I just think the show would have done so much better if FOX execs trusted Joss from the beginning and let him go with the original pilot.

Again, just speaking for myself and DH - we watched TTJ and Bushwacked first (because of the times on DVD) and weren't impressed much and finally desided to give the pilot a try and sit through the somewhat incoherent and longish - sorry, just IMHO - action sequence, because my friends were raving about Firefly. And Serenity finally got me hooked. But I still tend to skip the first scene when I rewatch Serenity, and go and watch deleted scenes in the end.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 8:45 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Quote:
Originally posted by atigdng:

I don't agree there, I personally am NOT a buffy fan, it is lame and cheesy to me, nothing is convincing. And it is definitly not a serious tv series. The ONLY thing I liked about the first season of buffy was angel.

*shaking and sweating* Must... not... flame! Entitled... to... opinion! Must... not... flame!

More graphics and animations available at www.desktophippie.com

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Friday, October 20, 2006 10:24 AM

WHOISRIVER

Quote:
:
I know this is going to come across as very condescending, but I can't help but shake my head and wonder about people who can get confused so easily. The opening to "Serenity" (the pilot) is great as is, and so is the opening of "The Train Job."

You're right, it did come across as condescending ;o)

I think the opening to "Serenity" is crap. Sorry, it just is in my world. It's 8 minutes of backstory about characters nobody cares about in a situation nobody cares about right at the beginning of a show on a network which prides itself on delivering shows to people with short attention spans. Like I said, if you're on HBO, they're going to lap that up.

And I can say this as somebody who isn't flaming the show, the fandom or the people who worked on the show for a variety of reasons.

That said, I think the girl in a box thing worked really well, and Kaylee getting shot is a great pilot moment.

FOX didn't just bungle Firefly because they had nothing better to do. They helped bungle it because they had no idea what to *do* with it - after all, it had horses and cowboys in it, and was a serial story arc show, which doesn't fit the FOX programming area (I'm taking the piss of some of FOX's show notes on Firefly there...).

It's a tough one to call. Would I have Joss go back in time and alter Firefly so it would have succeeded on FOX? Actually, no, because their idea of a good show usually isn't mine (although House is totally cool). It wouldn't be the same show.

That said, whilst it's everybodies favourite hobby to bash FOX, here's some factoids that probably aren't widely know:

- The show was originally pitched to FOX as 5 characters.
- It was pitched as a stand aloneish episode show, to avoid the mythology getting messy.
- There was no Blue Sun, hands of blue, etc.

Who asked for changes with those things? FOX network television. Of course, they also botched other things up.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 11:07 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

No question that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I acknowledge that gossi is as big a fan of the 'verse as any of us, but it really bristles me to hear him say that the opening of Serenity is "crap." IMO, repeat IMO, the deleted scene of Mal and Zoe is in no way less confusing that the opening teaser that aired. That's something that we're just going to have to agree to disagree about.

However, all I intended to do with my two previous posts here was to refute the title of this thread. Joss did NOT blow it, FOX did, and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 11:14 AM

CMOTD

Quote:
- The show was originally pitched to FOX as 5 characters.
- It was pitched as a stand aloneish episode show, to avoid the mythology getting messy.
- There was no Blue Sun, hands of blue, etc.

Fox insisted that the cast be larger, that blue sun be incorporated into the story and that the show have a story arc? It seems to me that newscorp is responsibe for the best parts of the Firefly 'verse.
P.S. Who were the original five characters?

Takes more than combat gear to make a man
Takes more than a license for a gun
Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can
A gentleman will walk but never run

-Sting, An Englishman in New York

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Friday, October 20, 2006 11:19 AM

SIMONWHO

Not even Joss? He's admitted he stopped listening to the network and while you can be a lone maverick, it makes things that much harder for you. Plus one of his strengths was he got the chain of command, he did things for the network that he wouldn't done on his own but he seems to have missed the mark in selling the show to the network.

Now you can argue that Fox execs should have recognised what they had but the TV critics didn't, the early reviews were pretty lukewarm and ultimately it never really got the thrust it deserved.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 11:21 AM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Just play it as though they're in 1871, with a Northern oaf mocking Mal and co. They argue and fight in just the same way, leading up to the edge of the cliff, though skipping Mal calling for help from Wash. Then "I'm thinking we'll rise again" and suddenly with no advance warning, there's a damn spaceship appearing behind them!

An opening like that for "The Train Job" would have really grabbed my attention. Too bad Joss didn't do it that way.

-River

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Friday, October 20, 2006 1:02 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I disagree. Train Job was never intended to be the pilot. Fox didn't want to go with Serenity (the Pilot not the movie). If your looking for blame look at Fox. Fox blew it from the start by not running the shows in order, not giving the show a good time slot, interrupting the show for the baseball playoffs, and not giving the show a real chance for people to find it.

There was something special about this show, must be, otherwise we wouldn't still be coming to this board this long after the last episode aired.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 1:49 PM

WHOISRIVER

Quote:
I disagree. Train Job was never intended to be the pilot.

It was written *as* the replacement pilot.

Quote:
Fox blew it from the start by not running the shows in order

It was Tim Minear, I believe, who suggested the running order be shifted about.

Quote:
, not giving the show a good time slot, interrupting the show for the baseball playoffs, and not giving the show a real chance for people to find it.

Agree with that.

I don't agree that Joss botched Firefly. At all. Want to be clear on that.

And, at the end of the day, do I think any person on this topic or website is more talented than Joss, beside Joss? No. Sorry, but I think he's enomously talented in what he does. However, would I ever put Joss Whedon near the FOX network again? Uhm, no. And I'm sure Joss wouldn't either.

SimonWho - I've heard Joss doing his impressions of reading the notes FOX were giving him and freaking out in the office, and I'm pretty sure he's publicly admitted he got way cocky in terms of the relationship with the network and who understood TV. That said, he did make concentions and he dealt with the network notes for the shows.

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Friday, October 20, 2006 2:04 PM

ATIGDNG

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:

*shaking and sweating* Must... not... flame! Entitled... to... opinion! Must... not... flame!

Sorry, I guess I was a little severe, just really didn't equal Firefly. I am entitled to my opinion but I should do it nicer next time...

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Friday, October 20, 2006 3:22 PM

TRAVELER

Hello DesktopHippie:

I was well into 40's in age when I started watching Buffy. I did not even see the movie it was based on. I have seen most of the episodes because I got hooked. At that time I did not pay attention to the credits, so Joss was an unknown to me. But here I am a grown man watching teenagers struggle with highschool and vampires. I really do not believe this show was intended for someone my age, but the talent was there. The writing, the actors, the direction. Joss did not jump from show to show. Buffy and her compadres grew up and went through some rough times. And I'm not just talking demons. They had personal problems that were made as intriguing as the vampire hunting. It was great how the episodes supported each other. By the end most everyone had to face some personal crisis and learn to cope.

So if a middle aged old fart can love a show called Buffy as much as I did then I think it was grand.

He used these ideas of growing up in Firefly. All the characters on the good ship Serenity had some growing up to do. Some lessens to be learned. In the short time Firefly was on you could see it taking place.

In "Objects In Space" the entire crew were faced with the unknown of River. Jobal Early was just the vehicle that Joss used to create the situation that River needed to prove herself not only to the rest of the crew, but to herself. When Mal helped River back into the ship at the end it was a metaphor, saying to River you belong. She had assured Mal by her actions that she could be trusted and in return Mal and Kaylee in helping set up the trap for Jobal showed their trust in her.

So Joss has one main ingrediant in his shows. Leasons to be learned. Growing up and facing what ever is thrown your way. This happened in Buffy and Firefly and I suspect in every future show Joss creates. This is what humans do. We either deal with our problems and grow up or hide and never learn. Joss shows us how to grow up. To know we will make mistakes and have unexpected problems occur. This is his main theme and it runs through his shows.

If you need a hook to get you to watch a program, than you may be missing a lot of great shows out there.

DesktopHippie, I'm glad to share your enjoyment of the excellent show called Buffy. If Joss does not continue Firefly I am certain whatever he creates, he will give his best. And we all know how great that is.

Traveler

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Tuesday, October 24, 2006 8:27 PM

WINDSTRUCK

I'll just reply to TRAVELER's post with a grin.

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Wednesday, October 25, 2006 3:06 PM

TRAVELER

Hello Windstruck:

Are you grinning at a particlular comment or my whole dialogue.

I do lay it on pretty thick, don't I. The secret is to make people think you really know what your talking about. But I do enjoy watching Buffy.

I aim to ramble
Traveler

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