The Desolation of SUCK. by AURaptor

America loves a winner!

I didn't want to get too spoilery, just yet, but I'M GOING TO NOW!!

Peter Jackson veers far off the original book, needlessly brings back Orlando Bloom as Legolas, and there's even a passing reference to Gimli. Mind you, Legolas doesn't appear in the Hobbit by name, but he's front and centre here in this movie.

But the biggest abomination concerns Sauron and the Nazgul. NEITHER were any more than a shuddered thought, not even mentioned before the early part of Fellowship of the Ring, but go back in time, and it's " HEY ! The gang's all here !! " Rubbish!!! Absolute Orc poop!

And where in the hell was the White Council ? Gandalf does battle w/ The EYE, even before the White Council convenes ? What the mother 'effin HELL Peter ???

Oh, and there are so many more things wrong w/ this movie... I may be ill.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 28, 2013 11:57 PM

I liked it, even if it wasn't exactly faithful to the books, he brought in a lot of ideas from other sources and tried to make sense of what was going on.

I was impressed he even brought in the Necromancer thing, even if it's a little out of order.

Some artistic liberties were made for the sake of the audience, but he tied things in with the future LotR books pretty well.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I liked it, even if it wasn't exactly faithful to the books, he brought in a lot of ideas from other sources and tried to make sense of what was going on.

I was impressed he even brought in the Necromancer thing, even if it's a little out of order.

A LITTLE out of order? It's COMPLETELY out of order, and make a cluster fuck of Fellowship! Gandalf riding to Gondor, consulting the ancient manuscripts, and finally piecing together the clues, and going to Saruman is now utterly pointless !!!

Quote:

Some artistic liberties were made for the sake of the audience, but he tied things in with the future LotR books pretty well.

It did exactly the opposite.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:00 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A LITTLE out of order? It's COMPLETELY out of order, and make a cluster fuck of Fellowship! Gandalf riding to Gondor, consulting the ancient manuscripts, and finally piecing together the clues, and going to Saruman is now utterly pointless !!!

Have more patience. Through evil enchantment, Gandalf's memories float away down a dark mythological river whose name begins with an L as far as he can recall. Peter Jackson reveals the powerful Clue Less Ness magic spell cast upon Gandalf in part 3 . . .

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:52 AM

STORYMARK

They've been saying for 4 or 5 years now that they're expanding on a lot of stuff just mentioned or referred to in the book. Little funny to be surprised by it.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:09 PM

America loves a winner!

*sigh*

And don't get me started on the whole 'Warrior She-Elf' business. As noted with Arwen in LOTR, the females were anything but shy, timid creatures who could not take care of themselves. That being said, I don't recall Tolkien ever introducing such a skilled orc slaying She-Elf, in all his works. Including The Silmarillion, though it's been some time since I've reread that work.

And speaking of Elves, PJ figured it worth while to introduce the sort of caste system w/ in the Elves. Which is all well and good, if this were The Silmarillion. But it wasn't. And that's part of the problem. PJ is trying to unwrap and unload the entirety of Middle Earth in a story which was fairly simple and straight forward. The journey of a Hobbit into the big , bad world, and his eventual safe return. But he's turned a quaint children's story ( which is what The Hobbit was intended to be in the first place ) into a humongous saga.

I don't know who he's making this movie for, if not for the avid Tolkien fan. The friend I took , who had no real knowledge of the story before hand, was totally lost. I didn't really know what to tell her, as I was trying to decipher it my own self.

The introduction of new characters, new sub plots, the changing of the chronological order of MAJOR themes... it's just a frelling disaster, imo.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:57 PM

I enjoyed it, much more than the first hobbit movie which was overly childish and way to colorful for me. Literally, they dyed the thing to death so it liked some velvet pastel painting a 10 year old would hang in their room.

I for one am glad that they included a lot from the simarillian and from the council chapter from fellowship. I love all that backstory and the hobbit dearly needs it to add some depth and darkness. Making a movie just of simarillian would be a bit dry, though I won't mind if they eventually try.

The presence of legolas is fine by me. Hey, it's Hollywood. They do stuff like that. They turned the barrel ride into a video game/ roller coaster ride preview (because of course both with be marketed and sold) which offended my purist side a bit, but it was kinda fun so that's ok.

I'm very happy that they've made an effort to include a strong female character. Also amused that she's onto the dwarf rather than the obvi heartthrob.

Most of all, I'm pleased that they included the bear guy without making him cheesy and cute, which he kinda of was in the book, and I'm super pleased with the spiders. I was very pissed over shelob, which they made the wrong kind of spider. Seriously, I was so looking forward to being creeped out by her, but they made her a low, jumpy kind of spider rather than the long legged blobby horned monstrosity of the book. Her relatives in the forest were closer to what she was supposed to be.

All in all, speaking as someone who read all these books too many times to be counted, I didn't mind the liberties taken in this movie, and I'm likely going to see it for the second time today.

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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:15 PM

For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

He actually does go and confront the necromancer in the Silmarillion before the White Council is ever organized. In the Silmarillion the Necromancer withdraws that time, but Gandalf is left with the distinct impression that it actually was Sauron and not a Nazghul. Which is why he does suggest the council be formed, and Saruman is made the leader of the council. This has already happened by the time of The Hobbit, which is why we have that scene with Galadriel in the first movie.

Then, to get the key to Erebor, Gandalf goes AGAIN to Dol Guldur where Thrain II is being held for some reason, and determines it really is Sauron. Technically this should have happened BEFORE the story of The Hobbit even STARTED, but all Peter Jackson did is make it implicit. With Gandalf inexplicably leaving in the middle of The Hobbit, it's not unbelievable that Gandalf would then go to Dol Guldur again by himself and try to confront Sauron again and Sauron might have gained enough power to reveal himself conclusively. Especially since the next time Gandalf shows up, it's to warn everyone about the oncoming orc army about to join the Battle of Five Armies.

Or that after The Hobbit is over, Gandalf would go to Gondor not to determine if it is Sauron, because he already knows that even in the books, but rather to determine a way to defeat Sauron.

Basically, my thoughts in regards to the Dol Guldur subplot amounted to "eh, close enough."

And I liked the she-elf Tauriel because she added to the story. The Legolas cameo went on a little too long, but Tauriel helped add some dimension to the dwarf characters, which is a good thing.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:32 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I don't know who he's making this movie for, if not for the avid Tolkien fan.

The millions and millions who liked the LOTRs films, and seem to be enjoying the prequels, too. Your friend really couldn't follow along?

Really?

I pity them (but then, look who they're friends with...). I took a 10 year old who'd never read any Tolkein, and followed just fine.

Its daft to think they'd spend that much on just "avid Tolkein fans".

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

Who you talking to? Funny that you start your post this way, then kick back with all the detail. What is a review thread for, if not to take a movie seriously?

Maybe you mean he's taking it personally to a silly degree, which it agree with. As I agree with the rest of your post.

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The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

And your point is... ? Thing is, the reason I'm taking it as such is because The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy weren't meant to be all one gigantic saga, told in epic fashion. The quaintness of The Hobbit is suppose to be a precursor, a hint of greater things, both in the past and yet to come. I think that could have been pulled off immensely well in movie form, but PJ decided to go another way. I wish he hadn't, is all.

Quote:

He actually does go and confront the necromancer in the Silmarillion before the White Council is ever organized. In the Silmarillion the Necromancer withdraws that time, but Gandalf is left with the distinct impression that it actually was Sauron and not a Nazghul. Which is why he does suggest the council be formed, and Saruman is made the leader of the council. This has already happened by the time of The Hobbit, which is why we have that scene with Galadriel in the first movie.

I don't recall it that way. His later trip to Gondor, consulting of the scrolls and dusty, dry parchment ( right near his open candle flame, no less - ha ha ) WAS suppose to be the tippoing point for Gandalf. If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ? OK - this is getting off the movie a bit, in wading hip deep into TOLKIEN fanboy stuff, I know )

Quote:

Then, to get the key to Erebor, Gandalf goes AGAIN to Dol Guldur and determines it really is Sauron. Technically this should have happened BEFORE the story of The Hobbit even STARTED, but all Peter Jackson did is make it implicit, and with Gandalf inexplicably leaving in the middle of The Hobbit, it's not unbelievable that Gandalf would then go to Dol Guldur again by himself and try to confront Sauron again and Sauron might have gained enough power to reveal himself. Or that after The Hobbit is over, Gandalf would go to Gondor not to determine if it is Sauron, because he already knows that even in the books, but rather to determine a way to defeat Sauron.

Don't recall exactly how the Key comes into the story, but how / why would it end up @ Dol Guldur, and why would Gandalf think to go THERE to find it ? I wish there was more on the map and the key than was mentioned in the movie. Seems I need to brush up on some details.

Quote:

Basically, my thoughts in regards to the Dol Guldur subplot amounted to "eh, close enough."

The meeting of Radagast at the tomb of the 9 ... not fully a bad thing. There were clearly goings on between the wizards ( Istari ) that were well outside the story of Bilbo's travels proper, but I feel being so specific that the 9 were " missing " seems less shocking that they'd ride again, as we find out in Fellowship. It SHOULD be, as I recall, a real " Oh SHIT! " moment, but if Gandalf already KNEW they were out of their tombs, 60 some years prior, it shouldn't have been much of a surprise at all.

Quote:

And I liked the she-elf Tauriel because she added to the story. The Legolas cameo went on a little too long, but Tauriel helped add some dimension to the dwarf characters, which is a good thing.

This is a lesser problem for me. Sure, there's nothing in the story of Bilbo which supports her character, but there wasn't anything saying she couldn't have been there either. The whole friendship interest between Elf and Dwarf, easy to let it slide, but in a story where there is SOOO much embellishment already, it seems even more contrived. Though, I do admit, they do kinda pull it off, so far. It's well written.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.
And your point is... ?

Quote:

He actually does go and confront the necromancer in the Silmarillion before the White Council is ever organized. In the Silmarillion the Necromancer withdraws that time, but Gandalf is left with the distinct impression that it actually was Sauron and not a Nazghul. Which is why he does suggest the council be formed, and Saruman is made the leader of the council. This has already happened by the time of The Hobbit, which is why we have that scene with Galadriel in the first movie.

I don't recall it that way. His later trip to Gondor, consulting of the scrolls and dusty, dry parchment ( right near his open candle flame, no less - ha ha ) WAS suppose to be the tippoing point for Gandalf. If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ? OK - this is getting off the movie a bit, in wading hip deep into TOLKIEN fanboy stuff, I know )

The trip to gondor was to convince himself that bilbos ring was the one ring,it wasn't about sauron. I'm pretty sure gandalf did leave the hobbit gang to do some dol guldor business. But damn if it hasn't been so long that I can't recall the details. Shame! I'm going to read the white council meeting chapter of fellowship again.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 2:01 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

The trip to gondor was to convince himself that bilbos ring was the one ring,it wasn't about sauron. I'm pretty sure gandalf did leave the hobbit gang to do some dol guldor business. But damn if it hasn't been so long that I can't recall the details. Shame! I'm going to read the white council meeting chapter of fellowship again.

True. He was reading up on the known history of the one ring. But the movie is playing up the ties between Sauron, his servants far too early in the whole timeline, imo. If Gandalf truly suspected Sauron was back in business, at the time of Dol Guldur, and it wasn't just some random Necromancer, then he absolutely had grown too fond of the Halfling's leaf.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
For a quaint children's story, you're taking this pretty seriously.

Who you talking to? Funny that you start your post this way, then kick back with all the detail. What is a review thread for, if not to take a movie seriously?

Maybe you mean he's taking it personally to a silly degree, which it agree with. As I agree with the rest of your post.

I had to look all that up on wikipedia. Fuck if I've read the silmarillion.

I was following precedence while acknowledging the extraordinary amounts of purist fanwonk of this argument. The movie really isn't bad, and as far as I can tell based on approximately five minutes worth of research they're actually pretty faithful to the books and supplemental material considering what we often see Hollywood do to book adaptions. But as with anything with a dedicated fanbase, there's are some unpleasable people who want to find anything and everything wrong with the movies.

Jackson was throwing the fans a bone with the Necromancer thing because it's some very obscure lore in the storyverse, and the answer is complaints that the timeline is all wrong. At least he included it and explained to the audience where Gandalf MIGHT have gone which the book doesn't really.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 6:35 PM

Quote:
True. He was reading up on the known history of the one ring. But the movie is playing up the ties between Sauron, his servants far too early in the whole timeline, imo. If Gandalf truly suspected Sauron was back in business, at the time of Dol Guldur, and it wasn't just some random Necromancer, then he absolutely had grown too fond of the Halfling's leaf.

If anything it's playing it up too late in the timeline, not too early. The quest in the Hobbit is to go reclaim Erebor, and when Gandalf goes to get the key to Erebor in Dol Guldur he finds out that the Necromancer is Sauron.

Getting the key had to come well before he even met with Thorin Oakenshield and started the whole quest.

Essentially Jackson invented an extra time that Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur for the movie to confront Sauron. But I think it'll work out in terms of the important business Gandalf leaves on in the book and then his reappearance along with the sudden showing of orcs and wargs.

Quote:
If he'd already convinced himself that it was Sauron, even before the White Council, then why make such a fuss over it when he finally goes to see Saruman ?

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar and elven leaders to believe him yet, and they all figured The One Ring was lost anyway. Saruman was appointed leader of the White Council, so it makes sense Gandalf would go to him. And then Saruman had his own reasons for dismissing Gandalf's concerns.

Imagine if you will that Gandalf is the magical grey-bearded Fox Mulder of the Middle Earth realm.

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Sunday, December 29, 2013 10:12 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar and elven leaders to believe him yet, and they all figured The One Ring was lost anyway. Saruman was appointed leader of the White Council, so it makes sense Gandalf would go to him. And then Saruman had his own reasons for dismissing Gandalf's concerns.

Imagine if you will that Gandalf is the magical grey-bearded Fox Mulder of the Middle Earth realm.

And very likely, after the Battle of 5 Armies, which will be a big part of the next film (mentioned, but not shown in the book), the Necromancer will be beaten soundly enough (or seemingly so) that Any support Gandalf has will evaporate, convinced the threat has passed.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, December 30, 2013 2:38 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Because Gandalf hadn't been able to get the other Ishtar ...

Istari!

ROFLMAO.

Hey, I know I'm trashing this movie, but it's not Ishtar bad!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, December 30, 2013 4:30 PM

Heh. I don't really know how to spell all this stuff.

Also I keep wanting to write "Jackson" as "Tolkien" which is pretty good indication I probably ought to leave the arguing to the "purists" I was tweaking earlier.

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 5:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, I certainly hope people enjoyed it, and am perhaps a teensy bit gratified that they got a decent voice actor for Smaug, although I don't think the original, dated animation or not, can be topped.

Still, I bailed out on The Hobbit and sequels, too many liberties with the Canon and storyline for my liking, alas.
And don't eeeeeven get me started on Arwen, or Eowyn the bimbo, or how Legolas is fekkin *insane* by elf standards and how much the other elves must have hated him for it.

I do pity Glorfindel though, shafted in EVERY interpretation of the work, I keep picturing him as a homeless bum, alas.
That said, why didn't they offer Craig Parker (aka Haldir) some work here, cause most of the girls *I* know were totally ga-ga over HIM, not Legolas!

-Frem

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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 3:55 PM

Hey Frem, that dragon looks kinda like Wolverine.

The "Rap" is here only to troll. See http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
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MAL4PREZ: Clearly [The Rap]'s doing nothing but trolling now.
STORYMARK: And not even cleverly.
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Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Maybe just a little, Smaug is described in Tolkiens work as having some feline characteristics, and I guess the artist just kinda ran with that ball in their interpretation.

The dialogue of that whole scene between Smaug and Bilbo was so well done in that version though, cause it really brings out not only how vain and arrogant dragons are, but also that they are not whatever human in thought and conduct, which is something most folk trying to write one seem to forget - they have totally different and often alien motivations and behaviors.

-F

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 9:55 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

The dialogue of that whole scene between Smaug and Bilbo was so well done in that version though, cause it really brings out not only how vain and arrogant dragons are, but also that they are not whatever human in thought and conduct, which is something most folk trying to write one seem to forget - they have totally different and often alien motivations and behaviors.

The movie dragon is a different beast than the book dragon. Some Tolkien for reference:

Quote:
"I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer underneath, especially in the region of the–er–chest; but doubtless one so fortified has thought of that."

The dragon stopped short in his boasting. "Your information is antiquated," he snapped. "I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce me."

"I might have guessed it," said Bilbo. "Truly there can nowhere be found the equal of Lord Smaug the Impenetrable. What magnificence to possess a waistcoat of fine diamonds!"

"Yes, it is rare and wonderful, indeed," said Smaug absurdly pleased. He did not know that the hobbit had already caught a glimpse of his peculiar undercovering on his previous visit, and was itching for a closer view for reasons of his own. The dragon rolled over. "Look!" he said. "What do you say to that?"

"Dazzlingly marvellous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!" exclaimed Bilbo aloud, but what he thought inside was: "Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hollow of his left breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!"

After he had seen that Mr. Baggins' one idea was to get away. "Well, I really must not detain Your Magnificence any longer," he said, "or keep you from much needed rest. Ponies take some catching, I believe, after a long start. And so do burglars," he added as a parting shot, as he darted back and fled up the tunnel.

It was an unfortunate remark, for the dragon spouted terrific flames after him, and fast though he sped up the slope, he had not gone nearly far enough to be comfortable before the ghastly head of Smaug was thrust against the opening behind. Luckily the whole head and jaws could not squeeze in, but the nostrils sent forth fire and vapour to pursue him, and he was nearly overcome, and stumbled blindly on in great pain and fear. He had been feeling rather pleased with the cleverness of his conversation with Smaug, but his mistake at the end shook him into better sense.

The movie Bilbo is far more cautious around the dragon than the book Bilbo.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 10:10 AM

OK, I’ve gone all out geek and typed up the timeline. I used to love all this detail and read it over and over, reveling in the way things fit together and the feeling that this could be a real world of real complexity and if I could dig up the records in Gondor and Rivendell I’d find stories enough to fill every year and every region of Middle Earth.

Anyhow, here’s a small portion of the timeline from Appendix B of LoTR, I’ve only included only the events that directly relate to The Hobbit and LoTR.

year 0: Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring.
1100 The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgul.
1999 Thrain I comes to Erebor and founds a dwarf-kingdom “under the Mountain”
2060 The power of Dol Guldur grows. The wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again
2063 Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins
2460 The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur
2463 The White Council is formed. About this time Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol
2470 About this time Smeagol-Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains
2770 Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor. Dale destroyed. Thror escapes with Thrain II and Thorin III.
2841 Thrain II sets out to revisit Erebor, but is pursued by the servants of Sauron
2845 Thrain the Dwarf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur; the last of the Seven Rings is taken from him
2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One Ring, and of Isildur’s heir. He finds Thrain and receives the key of Erebor. Thrain dies in Dol Guldur
2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. (It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.) Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
2890 Bilbo born in the shire
2931 Aragon son of Arathorn II born on March 1
2939 Saruman discovers that Sauron’s servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur’s end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.
2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies in Dale.
2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns to Mordor.
2944 Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the “thief” of the Ring
2951 Sauron declares himself openly. Gollum turns toward Mordor
2953 Last meeting of the White Council
2954 Mount Doom bursts into flame again
2955 Gandalf meets Aragorn
2968 Birth of Frodo
2980 Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob
3000 Saruman dares to use the palantir and is ensnared by Sauron
3001 Bibo’s feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring
3004-3008 Gandalf visits Frodo
3009 Gandalf and Aragorn begin to search for Gollum
3017 Gollum is found by Aragorn and questioned by Gandalf. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scrolls of Isuldur

3018, 3019 The “Great Years” – The events of the Lord of the Rings
March 25, 3019 the downfall of Mordor

-mal4prez, thoroughly reveling in her geekdom. :)

The "Rap" is here only to troll. See http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57146
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The movie Bilbo is far more cautious around the dragon than the book Bilbo.

Yeah, I found it a bit annoying that they had to turn the dragon encounter into a big action fight scene. I miss the days where movies could rely on a good story well told rather than the action pieces, which Peter Jackson has bought into completely. Maybe the next round of remakes will back off the excesses a bit.

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
If Gandalf truly suspected Sauron was back in business, at the time of Dol Guldur, and it wasn't just some random Necromancer, then he absolutely had grown too fond of the Halfling's leaf.

See timeline: Gandalf knew it was Sauron before Bilbo was even born. Admit it - in this you are definitively and with no wiggle room WRONG. ;)

As for your other criticisms: I've dealt with the riding to Gondor issue. That had nothing to do with figuring out Sauron or Saruman, and everything with ID'ing Bilbo's ring. This is clear in both the books and the movies.

The White Council was an ongoing thing. No, there hasn't been a council meeting in the first two Hobbit movies, which I did expect, but I imagine PJ has compressed all the business of Dol Guldur to one story-telling period. Gandalf getting captured is just setting it up for movie 3.

My guess is that the third movie will have Gandalf escape and meet with the White Council where he could tell of his long ago trip to DG where he found Thrain and got the map and key. Telling of that in movie 3 would make more sense to the non-wank audience, since they came into this knowing nothing of Dol Guldur. By movie 3 they have some context. Also, it fits the progression in the tone of things, with movie 1 being lite and childish, movie 3 moving to grown up things like Thorin's dad being tortured to death in a dungeon. Then the Council will decide to attack, etc, which is back in the proper timeline.

So yes, earlier events are out of order, but no more so than any adaptation tends to be. When compressing hundreds of pages to a few hours of movie, like events and settings often need to be grouped to make sense to the audience. PJ fit the business with Dol Guldur into one section of "movie time": Gandalf's absence from the dwarf gang.

It's really the simplest way to solve several story-telling problems. Works for me, and really not worth such kvetching IMHO.

ETA: Another hope I have for movie 3: Gandalf talking to Gollum. There would be timing issues, since Gandalf's talk with Gollum doesn't happen until the year Frodo leaves the Shire, but it'd be such an excellent chance for cameos by Gollum and Aragorn. Nice chance to tie in visuals of Mordor coming to power, troops gathering, etc, since Aragorn captured Gollum in the marshes near the Black Gate, and this after tracking him near Minas Morgul. I'd love to see those places again.

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 11:16 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The movie Bilbo is far more cautious around the dragon than the book Bilbo.

Yeah, I found it a bit annoying that they had to turn the dragon encounter into a big action fight scene. I miss the days where movies could rely on a good story well told rather than the action pieces, which Peter Jackson has bought into completely. Maybe the next round of remakes will back off the excesses a bit.

There could be other reasons for Jackson to rewrite Tolkien's dragon/Bilbo conversation, besides Jackson going completely Hollywood. Psychological reasons.

In atom bomb building history "Tickling the Dragon's Tail" was an experiment that killed twice. Jackson could know this since the accidents have been dramatized in several fictional and non-fiction accounts. What Bilbo did with the dragon in the book written before atom bombs is damn foolishness to modern sensibilities such as Peter Jackson's, so (pure speculation) Jackson rewrote the story for that reason -- he didn't want his Bilbo to be an overconfident idiot around a dragon. Times change, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Slotin

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 11:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
See timeline: Gandalf knew it was Sauron before Bilbo was even born. Admit it - in this you are definitively and with no wiggle room WRONG. ;)

Well, I WAS wrong. I now stand CORRECTED.

Thanks to you. Nicely done.

Quote:
As for your other criticisms: I've dealt with the riding to Gondor issue. That had nothing to do with figuring out Sauron or Saruman, and everything with ID'ing Bilbo's ring. This is clear in both the books and the movies.

Yep. I had that confused, and already realized that. I use to be more familiar w/ this stuff, but time has fogged some of the details. And in fact, some of it I never knew in the first place either. I guess my geekdom in such matters could stand an update.

Quote:
It's really the simplest way to solve several story-telling problems. Works for me, and really not worth such kvetching IMHO.

And thanks to your due diligence, I too agree. I still have problems w/ some things PJ has done,( like Elves coming to the aid of Aragorn and Theoden, at Helms Deep ) but over all, he's done a decent job.

And I agree w/ the capturing of Gollum, and the questioning stuff too. As much as I think PJ would love to put that in, I suspect it won't make the final cut. Maybe something for the DVD set?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
There could be other reasons for Jackson to rewrite Tolkien's dragon/Bilbo conversation, besides Jackson going completely Hollywood. Psychological reasons.

Well, all the running, big effects, flames, swooping camera action shots - those are what I mean by going Hollywood. Same with the barrel ride. I think there's some amount of time that can't pass without an action/fight scene, and of course no movie must end without the biggest action. That's the formula PJ has sold his soul to, and taken the film rights to LoTR along with him.

Quote:
In atom bomb building history "Tickling the Dragon's Tail" was an experiment that killed twice. Jackson could know this since the accidents have been dramatized in several fictional and non-fiction accounts. What Bilbo did with the dragon in the book written before atom bombs is damn foolishness to modern sensibilities such as Peter Jackson's, so (pure speculation) Jackson rewrote the story for that reason -- he didn't want his Bilbo to be an overconfident idiot around a dragon. Times change, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Slotin

OK, interesting. IDK though, I still think it's more about wanting to make the dragon bigger and scarier and more dangerous. And ACTIVE. Having Smaug blow a bit of fire out one nostril up a hallway to singe Bilbo's neck hairs wasn't enough of a Hollywood finale. PJ had to get everyone into the action, and with Smaug being bad-ass it had to be carefully done to be believable that they survived.

Reminds me of Frodo wearing the ring in LoTR. In the book, he made use of thing more often early on. It was only when he got close to Mordor that it started drawing The Eye. The movies blew it by making any wearing of the ring immediately - BAM! - draw The Eye.

My take on that was that PJ wanted to bring The Eye into things asap. Made me sad, because it meant he wouldn't wear it often so we wouldn't get to explore that world much. Especially sad in the movie, where the visuals were so cool!

Oh - also a good part of the Spider scene in the Hobbit, how it all looked/sounded when Bilbo put the ring on. I wish he'd made fun of them more like he did in the book. "Attercrop" and "Old fat spider" and stuff.

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, I WAS wrong. I now stand CORRECTED. Thanks to you. Nicely done.

LOL! Thanks, and because you're so gracious I won't even make it a massively out of context signature quote for RWED.

Quote:
Yep. I had that confused, and already realized that. I use to be more familiar w/ this stuff, but time has fogged some of the details. And in fact, some of it I never knew in the first place either. I guess my geekdom in such matters could stand an update.

Yeah, me too. It's fun revisiting. I used to know every word of this stuff! Never tried learning the language. That always seemed silly, though since hearing it in the movies I admire his work there more. Of course, the languages were the basis of this whole thing. But not where my interests lie.

Quote:
And thanks to your due diligence, I too agree. I still have problems w/ some things PJ has done,( like Elves coming to the aid of Aragorn and Theoden, at Helms Deep ) but over all, he's done a decent job.

My kvech is more about how the Return of the King became an all-out war movie. My interest in that book was more in exploring Mordor, and how evil destroyed or perverted nature. Seeing inside Mordor was like being able to see inside a nuclear reactor, a glimpse of something so beyond normal "real" life. He could have cut 10 minutes of film time and a few million of budget from the battle at Minas Tirith and spent it on Mordor.

Quote:
And I agree w/ the capturing of Gollum, and the questioning stuff too. As much as I think PJ would love to put that in, I suspect it won't make the final cut. Maybe something for the DVD set?

I hope so! I'd buy it. Well, I'll buy it anyway, but still...

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 12:53 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
My kvech is more about how the Return of the King became an all-out war movie. My interest in that book was more in exploring Mordor, and how evil destroyed or perverted nature. Seeing inside Mordor was like being able to see inside a nuclear reactor, a glimpse of something so beyond normal "real" life. He could have cut 10 minutes of film time and a few million of budget from the battle at Minas Tirith and spent it on Mordor.

I agree about Mordor. It was a landscape like none other in Middle Earth, and perfectly suited for Sauron to set up shop.

What I really didn't care for was the chasm that opened up and swallowed all the minions of Sauron, while leaving our brave lads from Gondor intact and untouched. That bit was needlessly cartoonish and over the top.

The siege of Minas Tirith was indeed spectacular, and I can't fault PJ for going all out.

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Wednesday, January 1, 2014 11:40 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

My main complaint about Desolation (as well as Unexpected Journey) is the orcs in pursuit. Not at all in the book, but included for overblown action scenes, which you apparently have to have these days or else the ADHD crowd falls asleep.

I had debated not reviewing this one, but I relented - http://templetongate.net/hobbit2.htm

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I had debated not reviewing this one, but I relented - http://templetongate.net/hobbit2.htm

Did you write this post? I respect your opinion, and even agree with much of it. All of it? Maybe. It's been a long day and I'm shot. I don't want to risk going into detail over it when I'm so tired. I might not agree with so much tomorrow, but at the moment I feel like you called it all extremely well. :)

Hey, it's good to see an old vet around, in any case. Hi! *waves*

Can I just add something that maybe doesn't belong: I would never feel comfortable giving such an honest response to anything our resident troll posts. With *it*, I have to take care of what I say because "he" will grab hold of every word and use it to his advantage. That says a lot of bad about him, and also a lot of good about ecgordon.

I am so falling asleep. I'll be back to clarify tomorrow.

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Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:36 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Yeah, that's my review. I never worry about anyone agreeing with me, I'm just giving you my take on it, and I won't be upset if you change your mind when you're rested.

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Friday, January 3, 2014 10:08 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

11 Facts About The Hobbit You Probably Didn't Know

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/01/03/mangling-a-myth-ctd-2/

Charm is an essential secret to The Hobbit, and to some extent The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien’s myth depends on the response of ordinary creatures to horrific threats against their comfortable lives. The hobbits prove uncommonly strong and resistant to harm because they carry the warmth of their home inside them, and they repeatedly summon its charms in the darkest times, while facing the most dangerous foes.

Jackson’s Lord of the Rings conveys the very English charm of the Shire and its inhabitants beautifully and consistently. It helps that Jackson’s own love of his New Zealand home continually comes across in those movies. In contrast, the first Hobbit movie unsuccessfully tries to pack most of its charm into the first dorky meal with the dwarves, and the second film is practically bereft of charm. In trying to fashion a more epic Hobbit, he lost the basic warmth at the heart of Tolkien’s work.

People talk about how The Hobbit movies are horrible but the LOTR movies were great. Yes, they were lovely to look at, and the visuals were nicely done and accurate, and film isn’t print, accommodations for the different medium, blah, blah, blah. Fine. But Jackson was so obviously tone-deaf about what Tolkien was trying to do in his creation of a faerie land that he misses the really important things for the sake of his own grandiose vision of mayhem in Middle New Zealand. Three simple for-instances:

1) Faramir. For Tolkien, Faramir is the explicit anti-Boromir. Two brothers. One wants to wield the ring for himself; one refuses to touch the ring. Two brothers with different approaches, different relationships with their father, and different ends. It’s an important contrast in the novel that Jackson doesn’t merely elide, he actively destroys by making Faramir the same kind of ring-stealing power-monger as Boromir. Egregious assassination of an important moral compass point so that he can slip in footage of Osgiliath.

2) Aragorn. For Tolkien, Aragorn is a pure hero cut from the Anglo-Saxon cloth of Beowulf (of whom Tolkien was an eminent scholar). Remember Beowulf? “Hey, I hear you have a monster problem. I have the strength of 30 men. I’ll fix it for you.” So Tolkien’s Aragorn–a hero who never doubts his heritage or his calling, who takes the palantir to issue a direct challenge to Sauron, who wins and is crowned king. “I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, heir of Isildur. I will claim what is mine by right.” Contrast Jackson’s maudlin, conflicted, postmodern, wimpy man. Every orc in the trilogy has more balls. Heck, his girlfriend has more balls.

3) Elrond. By the blazing flames of Sammath Naur, how do you cast Agent Smith as Elrond?! I mean, what the hell? If you want a scary psychopath, why not cast Jack Nicholson? Does Jackson have any idea who this character is? “He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.” He’s not a bitter, racist, computer virus, that’s for damn sure.

The Hobbit movies, by contrast to LOTR, at least have the characterization mostly right. I can live with interpolated ass-whuppins and all the Hollywood if you respect the characters. The Hobbit is a simpler story with simpler, less noble characters and so suffers less from Jackson’s depredations.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, January 3, 2014 10:59 AM

Quote:
Faramir.

I was actually okay with that change. In the story it didn't actually make sense that one brother couldn't resist the ring and one could. The ring makes it near impossible for anyone to resist without a supreme effort of will.

Quote:
Aragorn.

Lolwut? Yes, angst is sometimes annoying, but it hardly qualifies as wimpy, and since when is a mary sue more interesting than someone with internal conflict?

I hear people make this exact same argument about Malcolm Reynolds, ferchrissake. Real people have problems, sometimes emotional, even for the toughest guy, and they DEAL with it in various ways.

Quote:
Elrond.

He wasn't playing Agent Smith. He was playing Elrond. Playing different characters is something actors do. For example, Jack Nicholson, who was mentioned in that utterly inane rant, has played both a man gone murderously crazy in The Shining as well as characters in friggin' romantic comedies.

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Friday, January 3, 2014 11:54 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
He wasn't playing Agent Smith. He was playing Elrond. Playing different characters is something actors do. For example, Jack Nicholson, who was mentioned in that utterly inane rant, has played both a man gone murderously crazy in The Shining as well as characters in friggin' romantic comedies.

Your experience of Hugo Weaving ( Agent 'Elrond' Smith ) did not match mine. Weaving did not convince me that “he was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.” He did speak his lines with slow dignity and followed directions, so he deserved to be paid for his good-enough acting. Many actors could have done as well. Maybe Jackson could have cast somebody else?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, January 3, 2014 12:03 PM

ZEEK

I thought it was a decent movie. It definitely changed a lot from the book but I expected that. So, it's not the end of the world IMO.

The only part I really thought was bad was the chase/fight with Smaug. I mean he's supposed to be smart and cunning. The movie Smaug fell for "hey over here!" like 3 times when he was like one stride away from killing a handful of dwarves. Not to mention the silly gold statue. That whole action scene was a mistake IMO. Still I can let it slide and call it a good movie.

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Friday, January 3, 2014 4:21 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Charm is an essential secret to The Hobbit, and to some extent The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien’s myth depends on the response of ordinary creatures to horrific threats against their comfortable lives. The hobbits prove uncommonly strong and resistant to harm because they carry the warmth of their home inside them, and they repeatedly summon its charms in the darkest times, while facing the most dangerous foes.

It's not a myth though, but how people work - children who have been treated well stand up far better and surer than those who have been deprived, denied and mistreated, BECAUSE they have that "warmth of home inside them", which makes the whole doctrine of subjecting them to privation, denial of their selfhood and suffering not only invalid, but a form of abuse that cripples them.

Case in point, Gollum wasn't treated too well, and that became self-fulfilling prophecy even before he fell to the lure of the ring, cause that's HOW it got its hooks into him so damn fast in the first place.

Quote:
Elrond. By the blazing flames of Sammath Naur, how do you cast Agent Smith as Elrond?! I mean, what the hell? If you want a scary psychopath, why not cast Jack Nicholson? Does Jackson have any idea who this character is? “He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.” He’s not a bitter, racist, computer virus, that’s for damn sure.

Erm, Elrond was a massive hypocrite and something of a racist towards men, in large part because he was too damn arrogant to admit his own responsibility in letting Isildur walk out of there with the Ring - he plays it off nice, especially in public, despite ALSO being a pompous, overbearing ass (which is true to the character, hell, MOST elves kinda were) but privately he was extremely bitter towards the race of men, perhaps because he blamed the human half of him for letting Isildur merrily trot off with the Ring like that.
Of course, he misliked Aragorn for far more direct and obvious reasons, which while petty are a bit more understandable.

In fact showing Elrond as complex, conflicted and flawed as he was, that was IMHO one of the things the movies did right.

I concur that Faramir totally got the shaft though, and you know who else did, to my ire cause the poor bastard's been shafted by *EVERY* interpretation but the original ?
Glorfindel.

Seriously, he's like the Rodney Dangerfield of elves, when it comes to adaptions of Tolkiens work, no respect at all.

-Frem

PS. I am of the mind that Peter Jackson jumped the shark somewhere around the middle of Two Towers, so I wasn't expecting to bother going to see anything after that.

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Friday, January 3, 2014 8:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Faramir- I think his strength lies in how UNlike his brother he was, so resisting the ring wasn't as big a deal to him. Where as simple Sam, who was briefly drawn into the power of the ring, only after it had reached Mordor, and drew closer to the source of its power / maker. HE was lured by the power of the ring from his desire to do good. I'm sure, had Farimir been in Sam's shoes, inside the borders of Mordor, he too would have felt it hard to hand over the ring so freely.

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Wednesday, January 15, 2014 12:13 AM