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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole idea of showing the world how the U.S. military uses snipers makes me both angry and nauseated. Is this something to be proud of and boast about? It seems to me more like a dirty little secret, something that never gets discussed, much less made into a movie. I saw Chris Kyle interviewed many times on tv when his book came out and felt the whole thing was fucked up. If our military has to use snipers to keep the troops safe, then I'd say there's something very wrong with the operations planning and/or the commanders*.


* The same commanders who never figured out how to stop humvees and transports from getting blown up from IEDs in the road every damn day for eight years.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Snipers are utilized in city fighting due to the fact that the sniper can see threats that the soldiers on the ground cannot. I don't know for sure, but I would bet they were used in the same way during that type of campaign in WW2.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?

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Originally posted by ecgordon:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?

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Yes, but it has been quite a few years.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I don't get what all the hub-bub is about this movie. At the end, as the credits rolled they showed how the folks in his home state of Texas honored this fallen hero gunned down by a marine, who may be schizophrenic. Right now that former marine is on trial for murder, or, at least, they are trying to determine if he's fit for trial.

I caught some of the controversy surrounding this movie, but it is just a bunch of hype. Some have said that it glorifies war. After seeing this film, I didn't get that feeling at all. Yes, Eastwood shot it as a typical war movie showing men in combat engaging the enemy (there was a plot within the movie about an enemy sniper that presented as motivation for our main character), and yes there were explosions and firefights, Humvees, tanks, etc. But, to me, this was a character study about an all-American gung-ho patriot who's personal struggles with the war was instilled in him by his staunch upbringing.

Chris Kyle's father laid the groundwork for this seemingly unflinching hero who did not know the meaning of the word - Quit. He was called the Legend by his brothers in arms (for which he seemed to struggle with as well). He had an unshakable belief in this country that drove him to distraction and that he kept bottled up inside. This "war" movie is an unvarnished, sober account of the life of an American Hero, as well as, a raw depiction of the mess that was Iraq following 9/11. The grunt's reaction and the relentless pursuit of a spinning-out-of-control never-ending war.

To me, this was as anti-war as the classic All Quiet on the Western Front (1930). Every red-blooded American should see this film, just to see what "our" boys go through in a hostile environment. The endless tours of duty, constant pressure to stay alive, and being surrounded by a culture and people who hate our very existence (according to the film). But also the cannibalistic approach taken by those who would wreak havoc on the defenseless and weak. This film is not for the squeamish, so don't bring little children (I was surprised to hear little children were in the theater, no doubt with their parents, watching this intense movie).

Was American Sniper a masterpiece? No. Was it a good solid piece of filmmaking? Yes. What I liked most about it was that Eastwood did not beat you over the head with any kind of message. He just pulled back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling the levers. He presented the story stark and bare bones, without editorializing or with over-the-top embellishments. What was of particular significance Bradley Cooper's portrayal of this brooding hulk of a man, who suffered greatly in defense of his country. That came clearly across as the story of Kyle's life unfolded. So No, this was not a movie glorifying war, but rather a study in what our servicemen and women struggle through on a psychological basis.

Like I said, raw and unvarnished. For me, it deserved the Best Picture nomination, among other noms. It was a markedly intense movie that left the audience emotionally drained by end credits roll. Every one in the theater left without a word, as if in shock of what they just finished seeing. I strongly feel that that was Eastwood's intent.
SGG

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
To say that I "liked" American Sniper would be misleading. As a story, I think it did a very good job of depicting the emotional conflicts of serving in a war zone, as well as the alienation from reality that soldiers experience when they come home. However, I was not as impressed with it as a film. The pace was disjointed, and other than Cooper and Miller, the acting was flat and unconvincing.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?

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Yes, but it has been quite a few years.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I don't get what all the hub-bub is about this movie. At the end, as the credits rolled they showed how the folks in his home state of Texas honored this fallen hero gunned down by a marine, who may be schizophrenic. Right now that former marine is on trial for murder, or, at least, they are trying to determine if he's fit for trial.

I caught some of the controversy surrounding this movie, but it is just a bunch of hype. Some have said that it glorifies war. After seeing this film, I didn't get that feeling at all. Yes, Eastwood shot it as a typical war movie showing men in combat engaging the enemy (there was a plot within the movie about an enemy sniper that presented as motivation for our main character), and yes there were explosions and firefights, Humvees, tanks, etc. But, to me, this was a character study about an all-American gung-ho patriot who's personal struggles with the war was instilled in him by his staunch upbringing.

Chris Kyle's father laid the groundwork for this seemingly unflinching hero who did not know the meaning of the word - Quit. He was called the Legend by his brothers in arms (for which he seemed to struggle with as well). He had an unshakable belief in this country that drove him to distraction and that he kept bottled up inside. This "war" movie is an unvarnished, sober account of the life of an American Hero, as well as, a raw depiction of the mess that was Iraq following 9/11. The grunt's reaction and the relentless pursuit of a spinning-out-of-control never-ending war.

To me, this was as anti-war as the classic All Quiet on the Western Front (1930). Every red-blooded American should see this film, just to see what "our" boys go through in a hostile environment. The endless tours of duty, constant pressure to stay alive, and being surrounded by a culture and people who hate our very existence (according to the film). But also the cannibalistic approach taken by those who would wreak havoc on the defenseless and weak. This film is not for the squeamish, so don't bring little children (I was surprised to hear little children were in the theater, no doubt with their parents, watching this intense movie).

Was American Sniper a masterpiece? No. Was it a good solid piece of filmmaking? Yes. What I liked most about it was that Eastwood did not beat you over the head with any kind of message. He just pulled back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling the levers. He presented the story stark and bare bones, without editorializing or with over-the-top embellishments. What was of particular significance Bradley Cooper's portrayal of this brooding hulk of a man, who suffered greatly in defense of his country. That came clearly across as the story of Kyle's life unfolded. So No, this was not a movie glorifying war, but rather a study in what our servicemen and women struggle through on a psychological basis.

Like I said, raw and unvarnished. For me, it deserved the Best Picture nomination, among other noms. It was a markedly intense movie that left the audience emotionally drained by end credits roll. Every one in the theater left without a word, as if in shock of what they just finished seeing. I strongly feel that that was Eastwood's intent.
SGG

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You need to forfeit your libtard card. That is the detailing of the glorification of war, and warriors.

So you see it as a poster for signing up able-bodied men and women to the newest fiasco in the middle east. What he showed was the utter brutality and dehumanizing affect it had on Kyle and his brothers in arms. The ripping apart of "our boys" and the toll it took on him mentally. But here's what you see - "we blowed them up real good." Well, I say let's nuke that whole region and sort out the bodies later. Then you'll see Iran and Putin straighten up real quick.

Try that one on for size.

You neglected to mention the deafening complete absence of sound during the entirety of final credit roll. As many others have, you have underestimated Eastwood's skill of craft. He surely intended the silence to encourage the reflection of the exiting audience.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
To say that I "liked" American Sniper would be misleading. As a story, I think it did a very good job of depicting the emotional conflicts of serving in a war zone, as well as the alienation from reality that soldiers experience when they come home. However, I was not as impressed with it as a film. The pace was disjointed, and other than Cooper and Miller, the acting was flat and unconvincing.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I would love to sit down with Eastwood and have a conversation with him about the intent of this movie.

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Chris Kyle was and is a true American hero.

He was a hero because of the way he conducted himself in battle. Chris was that guy who always put the mission and his teammates above himself and his own safety. He did this out of instinct. Consequently he found himself acting, in the face of grave danger, more valorously than all but a few American soldiers in the great history of our nation. Chris’s legacy as a warrior lies not at the end of the rounds that he sent to the enemy, but in his uncanny courage to stand in front of those around him when the chips were down.

Chris Kyle is a hero because of the way he conducted himself after he completed his overseas battles. The hero that Chris was on the battlefield did not matter much after his role overseas was done. He, like many others in his generation, found it hard to leave that life—and especially his Teammates—behind. But, because of his uncanny instinct to protect others, and with the exceptional love and support from his wife, kids, parents, and brother, Chris was able to endure the challenge of transition.

It was only in the last year that Chris truly found his new calling: he put others above himself, standing with fellow veterans to help them deal with the struggles of returning home from war. He wanted to encourage kids with severe illness. He wanted to help local law enforcement officers make things better for their communities. All of these things make him a true hero, even today, as his legacy lives on.

Chris Kyle and his family sacrificed everything to make this country, the state of Texas, and their hometown a better place. The courage to face grave danger in order to help those around him was Chris’s greatest asset, and he turned it into a great calling. His family supported and endured that calling. Now, it is our turn. We must stand beside those around us to prove that the United States of America is truly the land of the free and the home of the brave. We must show the courage Chris showed in our communities, our own states, our own country.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.

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There were, for me, a couple of bad editing choices or, as you stated, abrupt changes. But I found that to be a minor distraction that did little to diminish the impact of Cooper's Oscar-worthy performance. I agree that there should have been more balance between the two "disjointed" worlds, or realities, to show the contrast in a more dynamic way.

Perhaps that is the reason why the film met with such criticism. My theory is that "we" are collectively tired of being bombarded by the same-o, same-o, war and violence and the constant threat to our shiny little world. But again, the main theme of the film was to show that even a mentally tough individual as Chris Kyle would crack under the constant pressure of fulfilling his tour of duty. Granted, his father's teachings and overall guidance could have been fleshed out more to present the audience with a more well-rounded peek into his psyche, but Eastwood chose a different path.

That's why, for me, there were great performances by both Cooper and Miller in a good solid movie, not a masterpiece.


SGG

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Considering the overwhelming abundance of excellent composers Clint has used and had at his disposal to create mournful sound, I felt the silence was moving.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Upon reading about his "enhancements" I thought "yeah, right!" It's the old fish story. Each time it's told, it gets bigger until it's the size of Moby Dick. My theory is that it's part of his PTSD world. You don't do 4 tours and not be adversely affected, especially not in such a savage and dehumanizing war. Not making excuses for him, just making an observation.

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The ensuing excursion was meant to be a day of bonding, but the interplay between the men quickly soured. After declaring Routh “straight up nuts” in a text, Kyle texted Littlefield during the drive to the range to “Watch my 6,” military parlance for covering someone’s back. Later at the range, Routh first shot Littlefield several times in the back, and then aimed a fusillade at Kyle

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Eastwood forced us to look at war, warts and all. He held it up to the light, showed us the ugly truth and said "don't turn away dammit. Look!"

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Considering the overwhelming abundance of excellent composers Clint has used and had at his disposal to create mournful sound, I felt the silence was moving.

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The movie won its only Oscar for Best Sound Editing. Directing 34 films over 44 years, Eastwood has honed his craft to its essentials: make it seem as if the story is telling itself. Skeptical viewers may pick at the particulars of American Sniper, but they’d have to admit that Eastwood, like Chris Kyle, is a superb shooter.

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American Sniper is the #2 R-rated movie of all time, #1 is The Passion of the Chris.
www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic/mpaa.htm?page=R&p=.htm

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Tall Tales

I went back and did a little research (just barely enough to get the gist of the story behind the film, Kyle's whoppers/lies) and I came up with some thoughts. Yes, he told some whoppers (coming from Texas I guess that shouldn't surprise me) and he deserves whatever scorn and ridicule, for advancing his exploits, that he gets. Seems to me "embellishments" are all the rage now (Williams, O'Reilly and McDonald) trying to outdo the next guy's colorful "enhancements."

Upon reading about his "enhancements" I thought "yeah, right!" It's the old fish story. Each time it's told, it gets bigger until it's the size of Moby Dick. My theory is that it's part of his PTSD world. You don't do 4 tours and not be adversely affected, especially not in such a savage and dehumanizing war. Not making excuses for him, just making an observation. I personally know 2 such individuals who came back "changed" from war (Vietnam and Iraq). Killing can screw with your head. Bush, on the other hand, both he and Cheney, lost touch with reality in a much different way, but they have no excuse whatsoever.

Film and Storytelling

As I contemplated my response to your statement, I was reminded of another story on film that captured my imagination and fueled my love for film as a medium, a mode of storytelling. I was a young teen when I first saw Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) about a hillbilly that became famous back in WWI, when he singlehandedly captured a whole German Battalion with his service rifle. Tall tale indeed. Interesting how Hollywood packaged that movie.

Flash forward to today and we get the New Sgt. York, Chris Kyle, with Hollywood continuing to use their clever packaging tricks. Only thing, those of us with some brains can see through their chicanery. For me, I see LOTR, Sgt. York, The Dirty Dozen and Stalag 17 all over again. A story, a whopper, a fish story.........a flat out lie, maybe. But for approximately 2 hours I suspend my belief system, and allow myself to be transported to a separate reality. The world will be there when I get back.

Political Harshness

November 22, 1963 the day I grew up too fast. JFK was murdered and we lost the father of our country. I knew nothing of his real persona, but I was so young and the country was sold a bill of goods, still though he was "our" president. What did I know about Repubs and Dems? nothing, but my president was a democrat - so I felt that to honor him I was one as well. Bush is so far at the opposite end of who JFK was, that he pales in comparison. Somehow I knew that, once he was in office, we were going to war. We were sold a bill of goods.

Texas, that proud state, had to embellish, it's in their nature to exaggerate. Cheney, of course, had other things in mind. Along comes Chris Kyle, sees the towers go down and there is the "used car salesman" selling us a bill of goods. Many swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Many enlisted and were shipped off to fight and die because of a "used car salesman" and his trusty dog - Cheney. We are still "paying" for that bill of goods.


SGG

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Hey JSF,

I thought that Eastwood presented the story well, just a few minor tweaks IMHO, that would have given us a well-rounded and complete story. Some more scenes with his father and home life. The relationship with his brother was another aspect that I felt was skimmed over.

Again, it did not diminish from Cooper and Miller's performances, not in the least. The depiction of PTSD was more in Cooper's "far-off" look and general demeanor than anything Eastwood could have shown cinematically (his use of handheld cameras and lighting), he kept his shots simple, a few cutaways, but very little movement and, as you correctly noticed, very little music. As I stated, he used the KISS method. Eastwood relied heavily upon his two lead actors to tell the story.

EC described the supporting actors as being "flat" - Yes, I agree. But I believe this was intentional, with few exceptions. A soldier with PTSD will be there physically, but off kilter just a bit. Two scenes that show this in a very subtle way - 1. When Chris meets his brother in country on the tarmac, and 2. When Chris is home in front of the TV and it's not even on.
That image is burned in my memory........that's where I would assume they got the adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" - so true! What he did was show us, not tell us, what was going on in the lives of these two people.

Eastwood forced us to look at war, warts and all. He held it up to the light, showed us the ugly truth and said "don't turn away dammit. Look!"
No, I don't think he could have depicted the hurt and anguish of PTSD any better than through Bradley Cooper, a brilliant, spare, nuanced performance.
You're right, I was paying attention.


SGG

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I did like the Auto shop air wrench, which of course sounds like an automatic weapon with compressed air recoil and reload features. There were numerous other more subtle times which I cannot recall in totality.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
People seem to forget that, although Eastwood may be a republican douchebag asshole, who talks to empty chairs at conventions, he is a master craftsman in his field.....which happens to be filmmaking.

This may not have been one of his ultimate masterful movies (such as Million Dollar Baby) but it did have his touch. Subtle but poignant, simple yet complex, the deft touch of an impressionistic painter where you could barely see the brushstrokes.

Forget, for a moment, the brutal and loud battle scenes. That's the background. Watch Cooper's performance and you could almost see Eastwood telling him, "less is more" "go inward." With each passing tour of duty Kyle went deeper and even more introverted. I'm glad that I didn't know more about Kyle than I already did, for then I would be questioning Cooper's every move, Eastwood's intent (oh wait, I already did).

It was pulling all the elements together to tell a story. What I saw was a story about how a man slowly lost his soul, and just as slowly fought against it. Not everything was there on the screen to be explained away, but it was suggested in those very scenes that you describe. The nursery scene, the auto shop scene, the television scene. And each of us - you, me, Second - took something unique to our experience from it.


SGG

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Originally posted by second:
Take your choice.

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Take your choice. Then there is the Iraq War

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

I saw this movie as kind of anti-war. I didn't see it as Republican brainwash theater. Remember, I'm a democrat.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by second:
Take your choice.

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OK.

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The only facts most people remember about wars are the movies.

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WWII was preceded by the War to End All Wars, aka The World War or World War I: Gallipoli, Red Baron. Most of the films I wanted to list here are not found on the interweb search I just did.

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World War II has Bridge On the River Kwai

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In Yurp...

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or Saving Private Ryan

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In Yurp...

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or Schindler's List

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In Yurp...

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or Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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In Yurp...

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Nazis are the best villains, ever!

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Good thing the Italians or Japanese were not involved in the war, or the Allied Powers could have lost a few lives in combat. Also forgot Catch-22.

Others include Tora Tora Tora, Flags of Our Fathers, Baa Baa Blacksheep (I'm partial as a former Blacksheep), Midway, From Here To Eternity.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Oooooooo, so close!

So you're calling old stone face Eastwood a, what was it, radical leftwing extremist.

And what is this clap-trap? the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama,"acting are to be ignored or reveled in."

You lost me there with that one.


SGG

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!

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You are supposed to only pay attention to the politics which are not radical leftwing extremist. All of the extreme leftwing libtard radical politics evident in the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama, acting are to be ignored or reveled in.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Perhaps you got confused when you inserted quote marks incorrectly, or in the wrong location.
Or you are not serious.
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1. For one thing, those were your quote marks, I merely copied them because I didn't understand your comment.

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Aren't they all commie pinko weirdos? If I was running Hollywood, I wouldn't let those right wing gestapo-loving neocons anywhere near Tinsel Town.


SGG

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

As far as I'm concerned, there is no wrong answer for either of us.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!

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You are supposed to only pay attention to the politics which are not radical leftwing extremist. All of the extreme leftwing libtard radical politics evident in the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama, acting are to be ignored or reveled in.

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Oooooooo, so close!

So you're calling old stone face Eastwood a, what was it, radical leftwing extremist.

And what is this clap-trap? the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama,"acting are to be ignored or reveled in."

You lost me there with that one.


SGG

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I'm going to dig a little deeper myself:


While I see a movie that seems to be questioning the logic behind exposing a soldier to the uncanny pressure of several tours of duty, and the effect it has on his psyche. But too, the affect it has on this one soldier as representative of the majority.

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