American Sniper by SHINYGOODGUY

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
. . . since when did we ever have a greatly planned one?

WWII.

There was a plan for the Nazis. There was a plan for after the Emperor surrendered. That is why the firebombs did NOT destroy Hirohito's Palace. Iraq = No Plan for after the victory. It is easy to imagine a Nazi insurgency after Hitler was dead. It would have been worse than the Iraq insurgency after Hussein was toppled. America would have needed 100,000 Chris Kyles to get the Nazis under control again after the War was over.

You know a movie that did the affect of war on the warriors as good as American Sniper? The Return of the King. It was as Hollywood realistic about PTSD as American Sniper's version of PTSD.

Frodo has a mental breakdown and has to sail off into the sunset with the Elves because he can't live with Hobbits. Same with Bilbo, who never married because he was too crazy and still craved the insidious power of the Ring. At least Sam kept his sanity. He went back to his wife and child.

The Return of the King is fantasy. Couldn't be more than that since there never was a Middle Earth. On the other hand, Iraq does exist and American Sniper could have been so much more than Chris Kyle's tall-tale war-fantasy with a dash of PTSD.

Too bad Clint Eastwood didn't do more realism for whatever reasons. Clint did not need to bother himself because the audience knows no more actual facts about the Iraq War than they know about the Middle Earth War. All they know for fact is how they feel when they walk out of the theater, so why should Clint care about facts more than the audience does? Get out of way, worthless information! Here comes Clint to kick your ass.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, March 4, 2015 3:29 AM

This is the most coherent response yet, plus you tied it in with a movie.
Excellent.

WWII had D-Day, so it makes perfect sense. ROTK was an excellent fantasy sword and sorcery movie, maybe a bit long and overwrought with melodramatic moments, but something that captures the imagination. PTSD, well actually, yeah I get it. To me, The Ring represented man's obsession with absolute power - controlling the destiny of men, of having your deepest primal urges succumbed to. It is a winding road, but you still get to crazy town nonetheless. Yeah, it works.

But it's not quite the same as killing and slaying hundreds and being covered in blood, and within those hundreds and millions are some innocents - the collateral damage of war. I don't think that's normal, and so it "works" on the psyche, our human makeup, to deliver the host to crazy town. Now, there are the perverted who get their rocks from inflicting pain and misery - they are known as criminals, the criminally insane (no PTSD there). In filmdom what comes to mind is Apocalypse Now. A definite journey into the dark world of Insanity brought on by combat, but notice how it doesn't affect those already deep in the jungle. This IS their life, a daily struggle to survive - no PTSD there, except of course, for the GIs sent there to tame the savages. The Horror!!!

Now that was filmmaking, Coppola's brilliance shone through. Eastwood's story is much more simplistic, bare, to the bone - that's his style. There are times when that is called for, and it does the trick. Did it show that Iraq was one giant clusterfuck? It was in the background, but it wasn't the main theme of this particular story. But injecting more facts into a story about a man, hell, injecting facts to any story to make it more real, would make it a documentary. Perhaps that would have been more effective, but then, and I mean this with all the sincerity Hollywood can muster up, it wouldn't make MONEY.

Actually, in thinking further about the ROTK comparison (regarding PTSD)...............I'm starting to see how that could be. War and the ravages of war could definitely bring about all manner of crazy, no matter if you live it daily or make the occasional side trip, you still wind up at the same location.

SGG

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Wednesday, March 4, 2015 4:01 AM

I really happen to believe that, not for any political reason of allegiance, just common sense. The GOP has been consistently painting themselves into a corner over such things as immigration and the like, spectacularly so, and doing it in a manner that highlights the crazies above all else.

Would you vote for a crazy person?

Plus the reason you gave - the search for intelligent life on planet GOP.
Not that the Dems don't have their share of crazy, it's just that the ship is going down in flames and the crew is throwing gas on the fire. Plus, what, they have about 9 candidates and nary a one is worth a damn. Even Walker has shown that he's no Dole/McCain/Bush, Sr.

It's going to happen my friend, even if they put up a wall from here to China 40-feet tall, it's going to happen (by 2060). The country is changing and people better get with it or be left behind. The GOP will be exactly that, the Grand Old Party.

SGG

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Wednesday, March 4, 2015 7:50 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

I nominate the leaders of the Iraq War for a special Oscar Award – Worst Actors. If Clint Eastwood had wanted, his American Sniper could have easily won that Oscar.

In yesterday's news, following the example of American Sniper author Chris Kyle, US Army four-star General Petraeus decided to write his very own Iraq book with his girlfriend as coauthor, but he got into trouble with the law.

Quote:
David Petraeus, the former Army general and CIA director, admitted today that he gave highly-classified journals to his onetime lover and that he lied to the FBI about it. But he only has to plead guilty to a single misdemeanor that will not involve a jail sentence thanks to a deal with federal prosecutors. The deal is yet another example of a senior official treated leniently for the sorts of violations that lower-level officials are punished severely for.

According to the plea deal (filed March 3, 2015) Petraeus, while leading American forces in Afghanistan, maintained eight notebooks that he filled with highly-sensitive information about the identities of covert officers, military strategy, intelligence capabilities and his discussions with senior government officials, including President Obama. Rather than handing over these “Black Books,” as the plea agreement calls them, to the Department of Defense when he retired from the military in 2011 to head the CIA, Petraeus retained them at his home and lent them, for several days, to Paula Broadwell, his authorized biographer and girlfriend.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/03/petraeus-plea-deal-revea
ls-two-tier-justice-system-leaks/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, March 4, 2015 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I have lost total focus on the discussion at hand.

Poorly thought out war; since when did we ever have a greatly planned one?

SGG

This speaks of the lack of a greatly planned war, or so it seems.

It would help if we do not confuse this with an "Exit Strategy" - Exit Strategies are planned out for numerous wars. End of WWII in Yurk is not an example, otherwise the USSR would not have been able to extend the Cold War for so long. And the libtard's ballyhoo'd "Peace Dividend" claim for the end of Cold War was false, bogus, and misappropriated.

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Thursday, March 5, 2015 6:29 AM

I would think that you would not bring up the term "Exit Strategy" being that the Bush Administration (with Tricky Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld leading the way) organized the biggest clusterfuck this side of Vietnam.

They thought, "Hmmm, we'll just get rid of Sadam and the peons will greet us like heroes" - WRONG!

"What do we have for them behind door #2 Johnny!"

"All the blood-thirsty criminals in the Middle East from Syria to Yemen, maiming, raping and killing men, women and children in their path of destruction."

Second is right, all the American Snipers in the world won't be able to fix that mess.

SGG

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Thursday, March 5, 2015 6:39 AM

Petraeus done fucked up. Just think they tried to sneak a fastball by us, this should have been headline news, but instead we get homemade emails by Hillary.

Gee, Classified Military Secrets or Emails that they can easily subpoena, Hmmmmmm, tough choice which one is more destructive. What do you think?

I vote for Classified Military Secrets. Instead of going to jail, he gets a slap on the wrist. Naughty, naughty............now go on Time Out and think about what you did.

Meanwhile Hillary is being treated like she drowned puppies after pulling off the wings of butterflies. What a circus!

SGG

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Thursday, March 5, 2015 4:11 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Many people don't think a film "says" anything. They just know their visceral reactions to films. They know if they liked it or didn't. They know how they felt about watching it. They still regard the events of the plot as matters of fact as anything that happens in real life (which usually comes with "duh, he killed those people cause they were the bad guys!" And stuff like that).

People forget that somebody, somewhere (Clint Eastwood and Chris Kyle, both tall-tale tellers. Kyle has that lost libel lawsuit to prove it. ) actually came up with all that they are seeing, and did so to adverdantly or inadvertently create some kind of meaning. Storytelling is a kind of direct communication. And we've been doing it for just about forever, through fables, fairy tales and myth - we've use stories to communicate the nature of consequence, a way of articulating life's results before one can even experience them. Stories are the sign posts of modern living. Our guides to modern warfare. Well, not my guide to the Iraq War, but other people's.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, March 6, 2015 4:19 AM

I agree, generally, with your take on today's average moviegoer, most wouldn't give it a second thought beyond "good triumphs over evil."
There are some movies from the 70s that would stump them but good, people forget that sometimes the story doesn't go in a straight line.

Pulp Fiction changed that for a brief moment in time, as did Crash. Eastwood and Kyle combining to tell a tall tale, a new myth, is a nod to those days - it caused us to discuss it's merits, or lack thereof, in this thread. Don't get me wrong, Eastwood's tale is no match to those gems from my youth. But it's a gentle reminder. To me, that's what good film is about, like an abstract painting or a Picasso, you look and say something of what you feel. American Sniper might not be your cup of tea, but yet, here we are.

Storytelling is direct communication, even to those who see it in it's simplest form - good vs evil. Stories are as ancient as the sea itself, but it is the way in which we absorb and interpret them that makes us human.

SGG

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Friday, March 6, 2015 4:07 PM

SGG, is your reference to Pulp Fiction from non-linear, or non-good/evil? If the second, I don't understand how you see that.

For non-linear, what film before Highlander do you feel was significant, and also which films from the 70's?

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Saturday, March 7, 2015 2:19 AM

Non-linear, of course. But it did play with our perception of good vs. evil.

Pulp Fiction, the game changer.

SGG

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Non-linear, of course. But it did play with our perception of good vs. evil.

Pulp Fiction, the game changer.

SGG

Once Highlander set the standard for non-linear, there were a flurry of copycats before Plump Friction stumbled along. Quintin seems to have copied Short Cuts and Fried Green Tomatoes fairly well.

I have thought that, following Highlander, the game changer would have been Momento.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 11:48 PM

Now we're talking. Just so happens you picked some of my fav films of all time; Highlander, Fried Green Tomatoes. I'm not sure that they told their stories in quite the same way as Pulp Fiction did.

Now Momento is an interesting choice for game changer, it definitely put Nolan on the map, that's for sure.

Those two films, especially Highlander, did rearrange the storyline but it didn't change our perspective as to how the stories related to one another.
It was a rearrangement of storytelling, a history of the main character. FGT interwove the story of two main characters and how they related to each other.

Pulp Fiction had several stories apparently happening simultaneously. It jumped around and was seemingly unrelated. Plus you could literally start anywhere and you wouldn't be wrong. Any one of those stories could have stood alone - Jules, Vincent Vega, Marcellus Wallace, Mia Wallace, The Boxer, Honey Bunny, Hell, even The Gimp. Anyone of those a stand-alone story.

Momento was groundbreaking because it told the story in opposite form, like looking into a mirror, sort of like reading the story backwards.

SGG

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Monday, March 9, 2015 6:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Now we're talking. Just so happens you picked some of my fav films of all time; Highlander, Fried Green Tomatoes. I'm not sure that they told their stories in quite the same way as Pulp Fiction did.

Now Momento is an interesting choice for game changer, it definitely put Nolan on the map, that's for sure.

Those two films, especially Highlander, did rearrange the storyline but it didn't change our perspective as to how the stories related to one another.
It was a rearrangement of storytelling, a history of the main character. FGT interwove the story of two main characters and how they related to each other.

Pulp Fiction had several stories apparently happening simultaneously. It jumped around and was seemingly unrelated. Plus you could literally start anywhere and you wouldn't be wrong. Any one of those stories could have stood alone - Jules, Vincent Vega, Marcellus Wallace, Mia Wallace, The Boxer, Honey Bunny, Hell, even The Gimp. Anyone of those a stand-alone story.

Momento was groundbreaking because it told the story in opposite form, like looking into a mirror, sort of like reading the story backwards.

SGG

True that Highlander made extensive use of flashbacks, but the difference was that the flashbacks were not in sequence, as had been the prior standard, and there was not a flashback transition/explanation/preface making them somewhat more jarring, and the audience needed to pick up the attention level more.
I still wish the deleted scene of first meeting Rachel had been included in the American theater release.

FGT moved around the narrative a bit, but I don't recall them as being flashbacks. The big reveal wrapped together everything well, but I also don't think it was shown as a flashback.

Short Cuts was the clearest template for Quintin to copy from. Nothing original in Plump Friction following the gem of Short Cuts.

Your comments make me think you have missed out on Short Cuts. If you like film, you really should catch it. You can also play a game of how many actors you can recognize without referencing the credits. Many of my favorites were in there, albeit lesser known. Prior to Firefly, I could have included Jewel in that classification, but she was not one in that film.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2015 3:49 AM

Highlander is that rare film that the use of flashbacks actually enhances the film itself. I really like how it was shot and how the script used the flashbacks; it gave the film a you-are-there kind of feel. And, you're right, the audience had to pay attention.

FGT, I have a soft spot for that movie and it's mainly because of Jessica Tandy. Her narration was key in making the story seem like you were reading a book sitting in a big comfy sofa at home. Brilliant casting and solid script.

You're partially right about Short Cuts. I have seen it, but it's been a while and I don't remember it as well as some others. I actually went to see it in the theater and it was like being a fly on the wall. I really like Altman's style of filming, it feels like you're there. I remember mostly Tim Robbins and Julianne Moore, but for the life of me I don't remember much else. Some of my favorite character actors were in it. I do have to see it again, to be able to comment.

SGG

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Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:50 PM

I liked Short Cuts despite Timm Robbins and his ilk. Back then I regarded Julianne Moore as a plus to the cast - despite her nudity - whereas now I consider her a negative.
I enjoyed Susan Cusack, Chris Penn, Andie MacDowell, Anne Archer, Fred Ward (original Remo Williams), Lyle Lovett, Michael Beach (before I found him annoying).
Plus Jerry Dunphy (the real life basis for Ted Knight's Ted Baxter) was a kick.

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Thursday, March 12, 2015 3:16 AM

Altman's mastery of the ensemble is quite evident here and in MASH, but I have to refresh my memory by seeing it again.

SGG

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Friday, April 24, 2015 4:14 PM

Can you imagine how bad American Sniper would have been if Spielberg directed, as originally scheduled?

It was released on December 25. 4 months later, still playing in my local cinema, and I now see ads for purchasing it.

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Saturday, April 25, 2015 2:21 AM

Speilberg spoiled A.I. for me. Imagine how good it would have been with Kubrick at the helm. A.I. lost it's way about half way through the film. HJO was brilliant, as was Jude Law, but ultimately the script failed them and so we had E.T. Revisited at the end.

Sniper is a good film and had it's moments, but, to me, outside forces looked to ruin the commercial success of the movie. Politics aside, it told it's story.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you imagine how bad American Sniper would have been if Spielberg directed, as originally scheduled?

It was released on December 25. 4 months later, still playing in my local cinema, and I now see ads for purchasing it.

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Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:42 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
. . . outside forces looked to ruin the commercial success of the movie. Politics aside, it told it's story.

But it did have commercial success. At #17 for an R rated movie, American Sniper did well at the boxoffice, just behind Pretty Woman and just ahead of Saturday Night Fever, two famous oldies movies from a different century.

16 Pretty Woman $350,064,300 1990
17 American Sniper $347,920,700 2014
18 Saturday Night Fever $337,019,300 1977

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic/mpaa.htm?page=R&adju
st_yr=2015&p=.htm

Eventually American Sniper will be edited so that it can play on late night TV, same as R rated #15 Rambo: First Blood Part II and #19 Fatal Attraction. Then everybody will see this movie.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 25, 2015 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you imagine how bad American Sniper would have been if Spielberg directed, as originally scheduled?

It was released on December 25. 4 months later, still playing in my local cinema, and I now see ads for purchasing it.

Speilberg spoiled A.I. for me. Imagine how good it would have been with Kubrick at the helm. A.I. lost it's way about half way through the film. HJO was brilliant, as was Jude Law, but ultimately the script failed them and so we had E.T. Revisited at the end.

Sniper is a good film and had it's moments, but, to me, outside forces looked to ruin the commercial success of the movie. Politics aside, it told it's story.

SGG

Editing would have taken years. Imagine the expense of digitally removing all those GUNS and replacing them with flashlights or joints or whatever.

Everybody remember when network TV edited Showgirls for non-R rated viewing?

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Saturday, April 25, 2015 3:22 PM

JONGSSTRAW

Spielberg didn't pull any punches making Jaws, Schindler's List, and Saving Private Ryan. He's the greatest movie maker of the last half century.

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Saturday, April 25, 2015 5:30 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Spielberg didn't pull any punches making Jaws, Schindler's List, and Saving Private Ryan. He's the greatest movie maker of the last half century.

Don't forget the one I think is his best, Empire of the Sun.

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Sunday, April 26, 2015 12:20 AM

There are some movies that don't translate well to the TV screen. Showgirls..........really!?

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you imagine how bad American Sniper would have been if Spielberg directed, as originally scheduled?

It was released on December 25. 4 months later, still playing in my local cinema, and I now see ads for purchasing it.

Speilberg spoiled A.I. for me. Imagine how good it would have been with Kubrick at the helm. A.I. lost it's way about half way through the film. HJO was brilliant, as was Jude Law, but ultimately the script failed them and so we had E.T. Revisited at the end.

Sniper is a good film and had it's moments, but, to me, outside forces looked to ruin the commercial success of the movie. Politics aside, it told it's story.

SGG

Editing would have taken years. Imagine the expense of digitally removing all those GUNS and replacing them with flashlights or joints or whatever.

Everybody remember when network TV edited Showgirls for non-R rated viewing?

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Sunday, April 26, 2015 12:23 AM

My favorite out of those 3 is Schindler's List, with SPR a close second.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Spielberg didn't pull any punches making Jaws, Schindler's List, and Saving Private Ryan. He's the greatest movie maker of the last half century.

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Wednesday, June 3, 2015 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
As for your statement regarding the Lefty leaning Hollywood industry, now I get it.
But, I have to ask, why do you think they allow Eastwood to make his films?

Eastwood makes them money, so they can spend the money on garbage libtard fliks. Eastwood learned early on how to turn around a film quickly, reducing the fiscal exposure to minimums. Eastwood's time from final wrap to film-in-the-can and ready for distribution is the shortest in the industry - he sets the standard, and this makes the bankers and the studio heads happy. The unfortunate circumstances of "Waterworld" would never have happened under his watch.

In the event some readers did not understand this, or did not believe this, films currently in cinema provide an example.
Eastwood directed American Sniper, filming started on Mar 31, 2014 and was still filming as of June 3. It was released on Christmas Day 2014.
The star Bradley Cooper was also in a film called Aloha, just released this past week in cinema. It was filmed beginning September 26, 2013 and still filming in mid-December 2013. Co-star Emma Stone has mentioned that towards the end of this film, Bradley was preparing a diet to add the 40 pounds he would need for the American Sniper role.

Eastwood's directing provides less than 7 months, perhaps less than 6 months between wrap and release. Aloha ended up with 17 months between wrap and release.
Even if there were schedule delays for the release, a 7 month turnaround could have put Aloha in theaters last summer, and a non-Eastwood turnaround would have put Sniper either as this summer's blockbuster, or this coming Christmas season's release - in time for award consideration.

While looking around, I was able to find an image of Chris Kyle's coffin, and it looks like there are 127 Tridents impaled on the lid.

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Saturday, June 6, 2015 6:09 AM

Eastwood is a minimalist filmmaker, as well as one of the best in getting what he needs to make a successful film (for the most part). Two that come to mind is Unforgiven and Million Dollar Baby. So I agree that his film making schedule appeases the studio heads both in the pre and post stages. By Hollywood standards, he breeds success. His politics notwithstanding, I happen to enjoy his "fliks" and I'm not sure he wears his colors on his sleeve when it comes to his films. Although I imagine you would come up with many examples of just how he infuses his films with his political leanings.

There is one true thing though, he makes money for those Hollywood execs and they bend over backwards to accommodate him. Politics and art are not such strange bedfellows as some may, or may not, believe (have you ever heard of Leni Riefenstahl?); still though Eastwood does command a certain level of attention not afforded to others. But don't be fooled, it's all about the green leafy diet, not politics.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
As for your statement regarding the Lefty leaning Hollywood industry, now I get it.
But, I have to ask, why do you think they allow Eastwood to make his films?

Eastwood makes them money, so they can spend the money on garbage libtard fliks. Eastwood learned early on how to turn around a film quickly, reducing the fiscal exposure to minimums. Eastwood's time from final wrap to film-in-the-can and ready for distribution is the shortest in the industry - he sets the standard, and this makes the bankers and the studio heads happy. The unfortunate circumstances of "Waterworld" would never have happened under his watch.

In the event some readers did not understand this, or did not believe this, films currently in cinema provide an example.
Eastwood directed American Sniper, filming started on Mar 31, 2014 and was still filming as of June 3. It was released on Christmas Day 2014.
The star Bradley Cooper was also in a film called Aloha, just released this past week in cinema. It was filmed beginning September 26, 2013 and still filming in mid-December 2013. Co-star Emma Stone has mentioned that towards the end of this film, Bradley was preparing a diet to add the 40 pounds he would need for the American Sniper role.

Eastwood's directing provides less than 7 months, perhaps less than 6 months between wrap and release. Aloha ended up with 17 months between wrap and release.
Even if there were schedule delays for the release, a 7 month turnaround could have put Aloha in theaters last summer, and a non-Eastwood turnaround would have put Sniper either as this summer's blockbuster, or this coming Christmas season's release - in time for award consideration.

While looking around, I was able to find an image of Chris Kyle's coffin, and it looks like there are 127 Tridents impaled on the lid.

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Saturday, June 6, 2015 3:32 PM