MAJOR SPOILERS, but I had to say something.... by bassgravi

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

MAJOR SPOILERS, but I had to say something....

POSTED BY: BASSGRAVI
UPDATED: Monday, June 27, 2005 23:11
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 16101
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Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:02 AM

I felt the same, just sad. Also frustrated - the way it was filmed, you couldn't really even see what happened, so we weren't even SURE it happened.

I still have a hope that we'll get a message from Joss, the week before it opens, telling us that there are big changes from the screener...

Changing what happpens in death#2 would only have meant alternate-shoot of about 3 scenes.
Hey, I can hope/dream.

Still a fan, either way..

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:51 AM

BASSGRAVI

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:

It is beyond me, however, why a certain sect of "fans" feel that they are entitled to anything. Despite Joss' witty intro to the movie, this isn't your movie; it's his story. His blood, sweat and tears - forgive the cliche - partially made possible by all the money you've given to FOX through DVD sales.
...
So to say it was wrong? Um, try it on for size: "Yes, Joss, dear? Your art is wrong. Your imagination is wrong. Your idea about your characters is wrong. Listen to me, for I have seen the DVDs many times."

Just for the record, I'm not saying Joss is necessarily right or wrong, I'm just saying I don't have to like it, thanks. Nobody's telling Joss how to do it. It's called frustration, I have it and the epidemic has spread.
If you go around in your world just accepting everything life throws at you, that's great, you should let me know how you stay sane, but in the spirit of PMS and being generally overly-opinionated (and just a little offended), I don't have any problems saying you're looking at this the wrong way.
Of course it's Joss' thing, of course it's his story. I'm not going to walk up to the man one day and say "You know, you're completely insane, you're imagination is sooo stupid and the Wash thing, yeah, that was a bad move."
I'm saying that I *personally* don't like Wash being gone, I *personally* think it ruins a lot of things for me *personally*.
I'm not saying "Joss, this is God, you must change your evil movie."
Last I check, God was not inhabiting my body. Not actively, anyway. He pretty much lets me think I'm in charge until I start really screwing up.

I do think that the fans get the right to

a little if they're unhappy with something in the movie. Hell, there are people who get payed for that. We call them critics.
And hey, even if Joss was joking when he said "In a way it's *your* movie." I reserve the right to twists those words for my own vile and nefarious purposes.
Nobody's presuming to be entitled, people are just saying what they think and I don't mind blaming it entirely on hormones for coming off sounding pissy when I say I think you're taking it a little too seriously because people are saying "I don't want Wash dead, I don't see the point in it, and Joss why'd you do it anyway? I want him back."
Hey, by now you probably want me to shut up so you or someone else can issue a scathing reply to all this, but this is reality and as much as we browncoats love Sci Fi I think it's safe to say that reality is pretty much home to us.
We know what we can or can not change, but I for one, reserve the right to fight it and if all else fails whine endlessly about it for as long as anyone will listen to me or agree with me. (and probably for a while after that for the sake of my own li'l ego)
That said: If I came off unbelievably pissy and condescending, well then I apologize. Really, honestly, I do. I'm not trying to offend anyone or start verbal personal attacks, I'm just very stubborn, very opinionated, pretty much always determined to have the last word because that's just how I am, and I feel like I have to respond to remarks vaguely pointing n my direction saying I think I'm "entitled" to something. Don't like the idea of words being put in my mouth, even if that was not the intention...
That said...
Feel free to rip my arguement to shreds so I can see if I can come up with a better one...(if you reduce me to saying "just 'cause" then I'll stop...)
Oh, and I am grateful there are the DVDs if I still hate the movie in September, but for now I can't watch...really...it just made that big of an unpleasant impact. I'm just hoping it's not completely ruined for me.

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:31 AM

THUNDAR

Maybe Joss will throw his hands up and get Berman and Bragga involved. The second movie will be called "Serenity II, Search for Wash".

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:54 AM

SONG

Quote:
Originally posted by bassgravi:
I'm just hoping it's not completely ruined for me.

Honestly, this is what I hope, too: That Wash & Book's deaths don't completely ruin Firefly for you, or any of the other fans who feel so betrayed and sickened by it.

Any ideas I've put forward that appear to disagree with your reaction should be read as my explanation of how, for me, Firefly hasn't been ruined by the events of this movie. No one here is jumping for joy at the loss of these two characters. But some of us can see why it works, how it is consistent with the show, with Joss's philosophy, dare I say even with real life.

Of course you are entitled to your feelings and opinions, and as such, they are not wrong; they can't be wrong, really. But if you stop there for too long, you may indeed find yourself unwilling to invest anything more in this 'verse. And that really would be a shame, on more than one level. I hope you will find a way forward with the rest of us.

For the PMS and hormones, I recommend chocolate and a chick flick. I'm going to watch Pride and Prejudice this weekend. No unpleasant surprises in that one. Wanna join me?

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:33 AM

CRUELIRONY

Select to view spoiler:

I honestly really do think someone needed to die. I mean, it's war, it's not reallistic for everyone to be fine. And that heightened the tension for everyone. When Zoe got slashed, I didn't know how much longer she had. WHEN KAYLEE GOT HIT, I screamed.

And I was sure Simon was gonna bite it.

And how do you get a picture with your name?

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:34 AM

LISSA

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
It is beyond me, however, why a certain sect of "fans" feel that they are entitled to anything. Despite Joss' witty intro to the movie, this isn't your movie; it's his story. His blood, sweat and tears - forgive the cliche - partially made possible by all the money you've given to FOX through DVD sales.

i agree entirely! everyone is arguing about whether it was necessary: of course not! it's a movie! nothing is necessary, except what joss wants. not everything happens because it has to. this is the same as the outrage after tara's death on buffy. everyone was arguing about whether it was really necessary. now, tara is my favorite character on buffy, and her death makes me so sad, but i can say this in all sincerity: the way she died was DAMN COOL, and i wouldn't give it up. same goes for wash. "i am a leaf on the wind. watch me soar." HELL YES.

wash, we'll miss you, and i hope you get plenty of flashbacks in any sequels! (same for book!)

~lissa, spwhore

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:53 AM

MIKEYMO

Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:
now, tara is my favorite character on buffy, and her death makes me so sad, but i can say this in all sincerity: the way she died was DAMN COOL, and i wouldn't give it up. same goes for wash. "i am a leaf on the wind. watch me soar." HELL YES.

Definitely - it really was right after his shining moment in the film. I honestly felt more betrayed by the method of Wesley's death in Angel (although I knew his death was a near-certainty, and maybe for the best) - you think someone as that smart, focused and prepared would have done enough research to give a better show. Wash's however, was really brilliant, and I've been warming to it as the days pass. Joss gave us a typical "movie death" with Book, and then gave us a "this is fucking real" death with Wash.

Honestly, the reason I've had so much trouble with it (but less as time passes) was that this movie, our movie was such a joyous event. Just its very existance. But, the movie and its events really aren't all that happy. That's hard to reconcile - you're so happy to see these characters again, and see them interact and live out their lives. But their lives are sucking pretty hard.

I know that Joss is being true to the characters and the world that we all fell in love with, and these people's lives aren't easy. Horrible things have happened to them, and horrible things will happen to them in the future. But damn that hurt. Joss doesn't stab you in the back, he stakes you in the heart. But I guess I should have realized that already. It's why he's the best.

Quote:

wash, we'll miss you, and i hope you get plenty of flashbacks in any sequels! (same for book!)

With the mustache! (and a full blown afro!)

- MikeyMo "needing a hug"

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:28 PM

AXEMINISTER

First of all, may I just say (off topic) that you guys are very cool. I wanted to write "nice" but that sounds like an insult and it is NOT.

I've never really gone on message boards before -- I am borrowing my boyfriend's account to post this and my other comment - but I needed a place to say "Grr...AAAARGH" after the screening. I also visited the official site and my, my, my it is a bit cut-throat in there. I was a little afraid to write anything. Here, there is a spirit of "solidarity depsite disagreements" that I appreciate. So kudos, people.

What I wanted to write in regards to this thread is that as a writer myself, I can say that most storytellers want to disappear from the page. They want to make the creative product a pact between the audience and the characters, with their role as writer being as invisible as possible.

I write this because a previous poster (and you can tell what a newbie I am because I don't know how to cut and paste his exact quote) said, "this isn't your movie --it's Joss's movie, his blood sweat and tears -- why should fans feel entitled to anything..."

Well, I think most writers would say this is the exact opposite of their goal. When I write a story for me, it's mine and that's it. I will sit at home and revel over it all by my lonesome. But when I write a story for publication (or film, in this case) I write it for both of us. We are equal partners and it is yours as well as mine.

So yeah, we are totally entitled to our say and it IS our movie. I don't think Joss's intro was BS. It may be his vision that created it, but only our collective imaginations can make it come alive. Joss's art does not live except through us, so our expectations, our feedback, and our satisfaction really will make the difference in the end and I wouldn't hesitate to say to him, "Hey man, sure wish you hadn't done THAT".

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:31 PM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by bassgravi:
Just for the record, I'm not saying Joss is necessarily right or wrong, I'm just saying I don't have to like it, thanks.

And just for the other record, I didn't say you did say he was wrong, nor did I say you had to like it. Honestly, I hit the "reply" button on your first post cuz this was your thread. What I wrote wasn't directed specifically at you. I actually thought you said your piece quite well. There was, however, at least one post in this thread that talked about fans being "entitled" to something or other....

Quote:
Originally posted by bassgravi:
Nobody's telling Joss how to do it. It's called frustration, I have it and the epidemic has spread.

There are actually quite a few fans trying to tell Joss how to do it, both on this site and the 'Versal board. Blatantly saying he was wrong, telling him how he could change it with just a few re-shot scenes (because apparently these people are well versed in film making and have the cash to shell out for it), starting a "Save Wash" campaign, even trying to mount some sort of active boycott of the movie so they can ruin it for everyone else, etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by bassgravi:
If you go around in your world just accepting everything life throws at you, that's great, you should let me know how you stay sane, but in the spirit of PMS and being generally overly-opinionated (and just a little offended), I don't have any problems saying you're looking at this the wrong way.

You cannot change that which you do not control. And of all the uncontrollables, I imagine Universal Studios and Joss Whedon have a place in the top portion of the list. PMS and I are good friends

, and you'll just have to trust me when I say that I share (at least some of) your frustration; I love Wash and it is very hard for me to imagine the Serenity Family without him. In fact, every time I see that oh-so-clever "wash me" written in the dust of someone's car, I take it the wrong way... I think, "ooooh, yeah, Wash me!"

I can also ensure you that I'll be all pouty and whiney about the Wash-less 'Verse, too, for quite some time.

I cut the rest of your post because I think I addressed it above. I don't think a scathing reply is appropriate or called for. 'Sides, I'm not much for the scathing thing. I know how impossible it is to control how someone else reads and interprets your written words without the benefit of hearing the inflection in your voice or seeing your body-language..., so I try to write as innocuously as possible. Invariably, it doesn't work. Heigh ho, it's a funny old life.

No offense intended, nor was my intention to imply that you - and other fans - had no rights to opinions or feelings. I want Wash back, too. I was referring to those in this thread and in others that I think are a bit over the edge, who actually do believe they are entitled to the movie that they want, and who proceed by posting the lunatic "no, Joss, you're wrong, do it this way instead cuz I'm a fan so therefore my opinion is more right and even though you were already over budget and had to lay off some departments before the movie was finished, I'm sure 'Versal will give you a blank check because there's clearly plenty of time to get all the actors back together, re-build the sets, re-hire all the crew, etc. etc. etc. to re-shoot the scenes and make Wash not dead. It's just that easy!"

Quote:
Originally posted by bassgravi:
"You know, you're completely insane, you're imagination is sooo stupid and the Wash thing, yeah, that was a bad move."

I have nothing to say about this. I just thought it was funny.

Oh, and never shut up. "Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life." - one of the only good "fortunes" I ever got from a Fortune Cookie. Even though it's not actually a fortune; more advice than anything. ...And this normally would ignite a rant against the turn fortune cookies have taken these days, which is so much not fortune-y and all advice-y / statement-y, but we'll skip that and save it for it's own thread.

Cheers.

无党派人士

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 2:38 PM

POTHER

Quote:
...choices from an otherwise masterful storyteller.

Different choices. I do not believe he made them poorly. Joss is a different kind of storyteller. His stories are NOT what we've become used to seeing, either on TV or on the BIG screen.

Select to view spoiler:

And that leads to the first reason I think Wash experienced his end...

1.) Joss has I think amazingly crafted a different kind of story, that we don't normally get to experience in theaters. Every single minute of that movie is packed with something necessary to tell the story he wanted to tell in 2 hours time, and that story was NOT "...and everyone lived happily ever after."

So the second reason...

2.) If he makes two more movies, he's got 4-5 more hours of screen time to tell two more stories.
Cutting the main "protagonist" count from 9 to 7 is going to make it a little easier and probably better. He really crammed a LOT into this first 2 hour movie, perhaps too much. It was practical.

And the third reason...

3.) He said he wanted to spend more time on the "darker" side of Mal, and I believe he likes telling stories with "complex" characters that are not all good and not all bad. The two characters he took out tended to lean the most towards "simplistic" and "mostly good". So he can focus now on telling us more stories with the more complex and darker 7 of the 9.

Those are the reasons I think Wash and Book are no longer with us.

Finally, I think we all should be thankful that we got to spend another couple hours with Book and Wash. I fully intend to go see our BDH's in this movie several more times. It was good to see all 9 of them again, and it will be at least two years if we're lucky until we see the remaining 7 again.
{/spoiler]

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 5:12 PM

BASSGRAVI

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
There are actually quite a few fans trying to tell Joss how to do it, both on this site and the 'Versal board. Blatantly saying he was wrong, telling him how he could change it with just a few re-shot scenes (because apparently these people are well versed in film making and have the cash to shell out for it), starting a "Save Wash" campaign, even trying to mount some sort of active boycott of the movie so they can ruin it for everyone else, etc. etc.

I missed out on the "Save Wash" boycott madness and mayhem thing or I wouldn't have been so demon-with-fangs-ish...
I agree with you on the people saying to change the movie thing, though...that's a bit...pretentious...(or however you spell it...)
Maybe if I made movies, had tons of money and some extra film, cast, and crew laying around I'd suggest he change it too, but neither of those things is ever going to happen to me and certainly not anytime soon so alls I can say is "I want my Wash, pleeeeease?"
I think I'm going to go find my cuddly blanket of doom and have dreams of Wash (in the non-be-in-my-bunk-sense...seriously...I mean it...sheesh...heathens...)

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Saturday, June 25, 2005 5:24 PM

BASSGRAVI

Quote:
Originally posted by CruelIrony
And how do you get a picture with your name?

When you're on the home page there should be a thing up top with many yellow links and one should say 'My Firefly' from there on the side is a little thing that says 'Edit My Profile', etc. (or something to that effect) and you should be able to find a pic.
At least....I think that's how I did it...and I think there's a way to get a custom made pic, but I haven't explored that yet.

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Sunday, June 26, 2005 8:33 PM

CAPNHARBATKIN

Wow.... where do I begin?

A long time ago I posted on this board my personal experiences with Alan Tudyk. Long story short, I spent around 5 years in a comedy troupe with him here in Dallas called Rubber Chicken. Alan was certainly the best actor in the troupe and on a personal level is a really, really good human being and one damned funny person. I felt that I (used to???) know him and I'm pretty sure if we bumped into each other at the airport he'd remember my name. (Please know that I'm not trying to brag here, I'm trying to explain my context for the next remarks).

When Wash died I felt like a friend had died. The rest of the movie just seemed really dark and somber. As I left the theatre I challenged myself mentally with something along the lines of "Come on, you didn't want Wash to die because you wanted your former friend to stay in the series" or "you're mixing the movie with personal feelings etc."

Well, I've had 3 or 4 days to mull it over in my mind and I scared. I'm scared FOR Serenity as something that I really enjoy as a fan and _really_ want to succeed in the marketplace (cuz then we get MORE Serenity right?).

I'm scared that Joss has made a gritty, honest, daring and awesome movie that won't turn on fans the way that most of us have become such loyal browncoats because average moviegoers (and god help us, movie critics) will feel the same kind of resentment over this Wash issue. In short, I'm concerned that killing Wash is a little TOO over the top in terms of making us 'feel the reality' or 'feel the danger' to allow the movie to succeed as much as we all know it should.

What's weird for me is that for the last 6 months I've been predicting that Wash would be killed for some of the same reasons that others have more eliquently expressed here. Specifically, it makes the relationship between Mal and Zoe the stuff of legends and will challenge (torture?) Mal even more. Its one thing when anonymous soldiers under your command die, but he killed off the husband of Zoe gorramit. That's different. Boatloads of future story potential there.

Part of me understands this stuff intellectually but I feel like the Firefly I've grown to love has changed into something a little TOO dark and too macabre for my tastes. If Joss goes there, its his vision and he's WAAAAAAAYYYYYYY smarter about story telling that I can ever hope to be. I have to say in all honesty though (and I expect to be eaten by reavers for saying it out loud) but this wasn't the way I wanted my BDH to end their movie. If I choose not to go there emotionally its not because the story is wrong.... its because I would have _prefered_ it to be different.

I didn't want a HappyHappyJoyJoy ending... but I didn't want Wash to die either.

Anyway, I've now spent 30 minutes writing an re-writing this post trying to be rationale and convincing without become maudalin.

There are a couple of other points that I have about the movie plot but I'll make them in another thread.

Hats off to Joss, Chris, all the folks at Mutant Enemy and our Big Damn Heros.

And Alan, you will most certainly be missed.

Now, how's about we get on with this increasingly eerie-ass day

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Monday, June 27, 2005 8:43 PM

NOSADSEVEN

I think that one of the things that made these events so hard to take is the context from which we are watching the movie. We have had three years to replay fourteen episodes during which nothing drastic has changed. Suddenly, we get our long awaited BDM, and we find our characters already somewhere else in the story, in a medium that cannot afford to take the small quiet moments that make the series so soulful, and are faced with fundemental and traumatic changes.

From our perspective Firefly was the story. But for Joss, the Firefly he got to produce was the set up for the story. He was able to define the 'verse, develop the characters a bit, and even set up some story arcs, but we all know that F*x cut him off at the knees. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have the endless possibilities and directions for the show to go, and have the story told.

I, for one, am looking to the comic books to help ease some of that transition. I am looking to sequels to ease some of the loss. And, I am looking to Joss with admiration for sticking with his vision. As Mal says to River of keeping the ship flying - you need to love it. Joss does.

A common piece of advice about storytelling advises showing what happens, rather than telling. Joss has taken that a step further. Rather than showing us the pain and loss the characters are experiencing, he has managed to allow us to experience that loss, that pain. In most movies we feel bad for the characters. In Serenity we feel bad with the characters. It transcends entertainment; it is art.

Serenity is not an easy movie. But as I get further removed from the emotions of the loss, I am more and more convinced that it was a great movie.

Maybe just a good movie.

Well, it was okay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Monday, June 27, 2005 11:11 PM

LIVIDLIQUID

I fully believe the emotion of all of these moments will change dramatically when the final score is added to the film. Music changes EVERYTHING.

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