Dollhouse: Gray Hour - Echo becomes a thief and loses herself on the same day. by Haken

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Originally posted by ecgordon:
I'm starting to think that the midwife scenario was not a Dollhouse engagement, but rather a memory from Echo's previous life as Caroline. Notice that the mind-wipe sequence started suddenly just after the mother gave birth, not after Echo's handler told her it was time for her treatment, which is what has happened every other time at the end of an engagement.

Interesting observation, indeed. Unfortunately, it doesn't hold water. Use a frame-stepper to go through the wipe scene frame by frame, and you'll see all the elements of her midwife experience in there (until past the mother giving birth, like handing the baby over to her husband to hold). Unless... this was her very first wipe (and the midwife experience was therefore part of her previous life, I mean).

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, March 9, 2009 6:05 PM

CELLARDOOR

I still don't know where the baby/midwife scene fits into Caroline/Echo's chronology, but as a motif of birth and the concept of tabula rasa, the metaphor worked nicely. I think it especially worked being mentioned in the episode later on when Dewitt and Topher were discussing the post-wipe state being like a birth, and how the sensory overload can be incredible. Maybe that's why the idyllic setting for the baby's birth (no blaring loudspeakers, sterilized smells, bright lights, harsh environment in that rich house), though I still have no idea how Caroline/Echo was related to it all. The image of birth framed the episode nicely, regardless.

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Monday, March 9, 2009 7:16 PM

PACHELBEL

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Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
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Originally posted by ecgordon:
I wasn't that impressed with tonight's ep.

Did I hear DeWitt correctly when she told the prospective client that only the client knows all the details of the engagement? If that is what she said then it makes no sense. How would they know how to imprint the active for that engagement?
I normally try to stay away from these sorts of discussions, but, yeah... that didn't make much sense to me, either:

"I can't tell you the details, but we need someone who's unflappable in a tight situation, who can think on the fly, and who can organize a team to break into an incredibly high security vault and get out in one piece...... oh...... and here's a drawing of a piece of the Parthenon for reference..... but... um... yeah, that has *nothing* to do with the engagement." ((innocent whistling))

A few other things that bothered me:

1. Why would anyone spend hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of dollars on an engagement for a midwife? A midwife. Seriously? Midwives still exist and operate today, ya know.... The idea that someone filthy rich would rather deal with the Dollhouse for this sort of common activity is just absurd.

Thank you! I can vouch for their existance; all 3 of my daughters were delivered by a midwife. And they are less expensive, not more.

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2. Echo's imprint was "wiped" over the phone using the squealing noise of a 54k modem. Niiiice. Sure, the "technology" they use hasn't been explained (yeah, yeah, it's not real), but to insinuate that nothing more than a series of tones and frequencies will cancel out the "real" imprint...? Weak plot device.

The timing of the episode seemed off after the heist went awry. The idea that they could imprint Sierra, get her to the vault, and have her open the door in, what, like 27 minutes? was pretty ridiculous.

In addition, the annoying brain wipe / imprint guy said it took 5 seconds to do the remote wipe. It obviously took less than that.

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3. The Greek government is aware of the existance of the Dollhouse, but the US government is not. Ooookay.........

I guess those are minor complaints, but they do add up show after show. That being said, I'm still going to watch it. Unfortunately, I think that speaks more to my obstinance than it does to the quality of the show.

One thing I don't understand is, after Taffy was remotely wiped, why didn't she realize she was Echo? I got the impression that was the case.

Finally, I her drawing on the steamed up mirror was pointless. I think we already get that she is retaining parts of her previous persona.

I didn't find the episode to be much better or worse than the others. I'm hanging on until episode 6 when Joss says that he kicked ass. I hope he delivers because, overall, the first 4 episodes of Dollhouse have been a disappointment.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 3:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pachelbel:
Finally, I her drawing on the steamed up mirror was pointless. I think we already get that she is retaining parts of her previous persona.

I didn't find the episode to be much better or worse than the others. I'm hanging on until episode 6 when Joss says that he kicked ass. I hope he delivers because, overall, the first 4 episodes of Dollhouse have been a disappointment.

I keep looking for profound subtext, but maybe I keep looking for subtleties that simply aren't there. Topher's 'philosophical' musings are, eh, never really on-key. Drawing on a steamed mirror? Nodding to each other in passing? I think we got it by now. And the episodes themselves, they're already riddled with so many holes, let's face it, for that reason alone Dollhouse can never come on par with Firefly. Perhaps I just ought to acquiesce to the idea that this is just a show with pretty girls, mildly entertaining so far, but no more than that.

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The timing of the episode seemed off after the heist went awry. The idea that they could imprint Sierra, get her to the vault, and have her open the door in, what, like 27 minutes? was pretty ridiculous.

Even if it could be done, what was the deal with Sierra insisting on seeing the money first? Adella's "We're a bit pressed for time." was kind of an understatement. I know, it's probably in the Taffy persona to be keen on the green, but, in earnest, with only 27 minutes on the clock, that wasn't very professional of her. It's like Mal said: you do the job, THEN you get paid. And because they've been standing around all time, catering to Sierra's greed and bruised ego, then it's like: "Oops, now we only have 9 minutes left. I guess I can't go in, after all." And then she still takes the money to boot!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:28 AM

BYTEMITE

Not professional, no, but I figure the reason Taffy continued to act that way regardless of the timeline was out of spite. Without her on it, she kind of sort of wanted the heist to fail. Just a part of her personality, and also to prove the point they should have used her (which they did, but the imprint doesn't know that).

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Not professional, no, but I figure the reason Taffy continued to act that way regardless of the timeline was out of spite. Without her on it, she kind of sort of wanted the heist to fail. Just a part of her personality, and also to prove the point they should have used her (which they did, but the imprint doesn't know that).

Could be that's true. But DeWitt said something like: "There's no balm for a bruised ego like saving the day." So I reckon, despite her spite, Taffy's pride would win out in such a situation. Also, when we were all still on Taffy Standard Time, our heistress (is that a word?) seemed quite capable of wrapping her brain around the concept of being on a tight schedule.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:43 AM

BYTEMITE

The difference is Echo-Taffy hasn't been snubbed, and Sierra-Taffy has.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The difference is Echo-Taffy hasn't been snubbed, and Sierra-Taffy has.

That is true. And it brings up another possible explanation for me. Perhaps, in a more overall sense, Joss wants to convey the Jurassic Park thingy of being in control being the illusion. So, either 'the imprint' gives rise to unknown/unexpected elements (the highly skilled, but formerly abused negotior + the equally skilled Taffy with an ego to match), or there's unforeseen client-side stuff (The Target). So, Sierra-Taffy could be just that: showing us that these imprinted personae, while suited for the job, come with unexpected/unavoidable quirks.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:14 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

I think this episode was actually a little less interesting than the previous one. I did like Topher's assistant, and Topher is becoming more fleshed out and likable (although that's not necessarily a good thing, given the moral implications of his work), but the heist was... meh.

As far as the midwife thing goes, however implausible a situation it may be, my mother did suggest one thing: perhaps her clients were extremely paranoid celebrities who didn't want their midwife secretly taking pictures of their newborn, or leading the paparazzi in. It's like Michael Jackson and the veils he made his kids wear. Now, the clients didn't look particularly like celebrities, and the beginning scene was obviously (IMO) just there for the birthing metaphor, but it's a theory.

At this rate, episode 6 better be amazing.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:48 AM

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
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Originally posted by asarian:
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... Oh, and I also like Topher's "You need to take something" assistent. She's cute.

Yeah, she's pretty much that, alright. She was also - and correct me if I'm wrong - Mr. Palmer's "girlfriend" and attorney-gone-tragically-wrong on NCIS for 2-3 seasons.

It was like that when we got here!

From the Deja Vu files...

Actually, am I right in thinking that Topher's assistant is the actress who played one of Nandi's girls (the one who wanted Book to have a prayer meet) in HoG, and the hotel security manager was the captain of the Alliance cruiser in Train job?

That voice sounded SO familiar. Like I could hear him say, "...local narcotics hounds."!

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 11:37 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

You are right about the hotel manager, that was Kevin Will who played the Alliance officer in "The Train Job."

Ivy was played by Liza Lapira, but the girl you remember from "Heart of Gold" was Doan Ly.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 12:28 PM

Excellent- thanks for Liza's name. (I actually just realised it wasn't HoG I recognised her from, but Dexter... Brain glitch.)

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 3:30 PM

DREAMTROVE

I'm not going to rewrite my deconstruction, it's on shinyuniverse, there are some other good ones there as well.

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 06K64:
Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
... Oh, and I also like Topher's "You need to take something" assistent. She's cute.

Yeah, she's pretty much that, alright. She was also - and correct me if I'm wrong - Mr. Palmer's "girlfriend" and attorney-gone-tragically-wrong on NCIS for 2-3 seasons.

It was like that when we got here!

From the Deja Vu files...

Actually, am I right in thinking that Topher's assistant is the actress who played one of Nandi's girls (the one who wanted Book to have a prayer meet) in HoG, and the hotel security manager was the captain of the Alliance cruiser in Train job?

That voice sounded SO familiar. Like I could hear him say, "...local narcotics hounds."!

I think the young lady from HoG was played by Doan Ly. Special Agent Michelle Lee - and Topher's adorable yet understated sidekick - are played by Liza Lapira.

You appear to be absolutely right about the Alliance officer who moonlights as hotel security (Kevin Will).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0579529/fullcredits#cast

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0487594/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0929558/

It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
You are right about the hotel manager, that was Kevin Will who played the Alliance officer in "The Train Job."

Ivy was played by Liza Lapira, but the girl you remember from "Heart of Gold" was Doan Ly.

Damn - scooped again. That's half an hour I'll not see again...

It was like that when we got here!

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:11 AM

Ha- effort's appreciated, regardless.

IMDB keeps getting more and more useful... and I usually only find out by asking stupid questions. Thanks to you and EC for the patience!

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 06K64:
Ha- effort's appreciated, regardless.

IMDB keeps getting more and more useful... and I usually only find out by asking stupid questions. Thanks to you and EC for the patience!

Patience, shmatience - it's that freaky ol' unstoppable signal!

You're welcome. Nothing stupid about your questions - I don't often exert myself to even that modest extent, and the wind in my sails got a bit of a sucking when I found EC was the man with the answers. My own fault for being up past my bedtime.

Indeed, a mighty fortress is our IMDB. Unfortunately I'm without it right now, so I can't check names, but I also noticed last night while channel-flipping (killing time for that Without A Trace rerun) that the fellow who played the sheriff on Train Job was playing some kind of baddie on The Mentalist.

Goram it, they're everywhere...

ETC: Bad contractions...

It was like that when we got here!

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:16 AM

BYTEMITE

Poor guy: only ever time he's played a good guy WAS when he played the Sherriff of Paradiso!

(Or at least according to the Firefly commentary)

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:42 AM

Wash-

Too funny. I saw that, too, actually. With the accent he was putting on, I swear I was waiting for him to say, "Gorram!"

And then cough.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:24 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
Indeed, a mighty fortress is our IMDB. Unfortunately I'm without it right now, so I can't check names, but I also noticed last night while channel-flipping (killing time for that Without A Trace rerun) that the fellow who played the sheriff on Train Job was playing some kind of baddie on The Mentalist

I don't need IMDb for that one. His name is Gregg Henry, and if you haven't seen Slither yet you need to rush out and get a copy. He steals that movie from Nathan, believe it or not.

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Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:53 PM