BSG : Finale by AURaptor

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

BSG : Finale

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Sunday, October 25, 2009 04:48
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VIEWED: 4592
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Friday, March 20, 2009 3:43 PM

America loves a winner!

Why has Lee Adama's hair suddently gone from jet black to blonde highlights?

What the frack did I just miss ?

"As much as I respect what he's doing, really the economy is something he should focus on more than the brackets. "
- Duke University basketball coach Mike Krzyzewski, after Obama snubbed Duke in his Final Four picks.

The U.S. economy WAS on fire under Bush, for 6 years. Until the Democrats took control of Congress. It's been all down hill since then.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 6:08 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Obviously they ran into a stylist from the Golgafrincham ark "B".

Or, since this is the first time in the series he's been outdoors, this is the first shot at sun bleaching he's had.

Personally I'm more worried that

Select to view spoiler:

they suggested Baltar might actually be god.

Shudder. Otherwise I guess I can live with this as the end of the series. I think they ducked a few of the philosophical issues but there were lots of explodey bits and Starbuck was almost entirely not emo. I love not emo Starbuck.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 3:56 AM

CYBERSNARK

Baltar is not a god (though he is busily building a Garden. . .).

The Angels seen at the end explicitly referred to God as someone else ("He doesn't like that name"). Which raises the question, which name does He prefer?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:21 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Baltar is not a god (though he is busily building a Garden. . .).

The Angels seen at the end explicitly referred to God as someone else ("He doesn't like that name"). Which raises the question, which name does He prefer?

Select to view spoiler:

Angel Six's reaction when angel Baltar said, "He doesn't like that name" suggested (to me at least but it was late and I was tired so I may have misinterpreted) that angel Baltar was referring to himself.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

http://xkcd.com/386/

"Don't worry. Captain Hammer will save us." - Penny.

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:41 AM

SUASOR

Nice finale, many good bits. But I hated the way they mangled the science. While it's true that Homo Sapiens Sapiens appeared 150,000 years ago, it's ikely that some of the colonist artifacts would have shown up by now. Also, religious fervor or not, it's unlikely all 35,000 of the colonials and cylons would have volunteered to go from a 20th century, to a stone age, lifestyle. Of course, they would have had to, in order not to create a lot more metal artifacts.

Moreover, they wouldn't have had many places to disperse, as 150,000 years ago, there was an ice age going on. OK, that was minor.

I can handle the use of religion, even angels and "Gods That Walk Among Us," but not going stone age after years of terror and privation while fleeing the cylons.

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:50 AM

GWEK

I definitely agree. I understand what they were going for, but for a show that prides itself on "human" reactions, it was beyond silly that everyone bought into Lee's plan without protest.

Although the story of the episode was decent, I felt the writing/presentation was very disappointing. For a show that is usually intelligently-written, the finale was often ham-handed and weak.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:07 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

The Angels seen at the end explicitly referred to God as someone else ("He doesn't like that name"). Which raises the question, which name does He prefer?

Jews are not allowed to say or write The Name, so they use G_d instead. The actual name is YHWH. So that seems to be a hint. Note cylons said GOD not gods. Only stupid humans said gods, when cussin.

Select to view spoiler:

Starbuck as Jesus. Jesus frakkin christ!

If Starbusk is Jesus, some Christians would take that as Starbuck is God on Earth1/Earth2...

So BSG founded Earth2 and the black race 150,000 years ago. Or did BSG found the northern white race, if they never interbred with the "savages"?

Note that Jews in Israel segregate black Jews from Etheopia living in Israel, who are not even allowed in the same class rooms with white Euro jews. And of course the Arab Semites are forced to live in concentration camps under apartheid slavery. So the jews of BSG seemed to be racist in their scripts, as required by the jewish Babylonian religion.

BSG of course was extremely blasphemous to Christians. Don't know what the jews think about it, since its jews who acted and wrote it. Apollo is the name of "Satan The Destroyer", BTW, in Revelation 9:11.

"And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. This is the great dragon of chapter 12, Satan or Azazel. He has a number of names, but in each case, he is the king of all the demons, Lucifer, who became Satan."
-Revelation 9:11, Christian Bible, KJV with Forerunner Commentary

BSG = Satan's little helpers? So Apollo was a fallen angel, ie, Lucifer, an ancient astronot riding Chariots of the Gods? So Lucifer/Apollo decided "not to be in charge of evil this time", and live like a hermit...

So its BSG's fault Obama wants to send 400,000 new troops to Afghanistan (for Paki invasion), and is attacking Pakistan NUKES with cylon robots every day... More predictive programming from BSG psyops ("Terminator robots are your friends").
www.infowars.com/obama-considers-expanding-afghanistan-troop-level-to-
400000/

Select to view spoiler:

It's so lame BSG humans destroyed all their technology and abandoned civilization. They probably all got eaten by wild animals and cannibals or starved to death, like the Jamestown Communist settlement in the New World. Only the cylons survived...

I forget, was Baltar a cylon or not? If not why did he have reincarnation with full past-life memory 150,000 years later? If cylon, was he using the regen tech?

The only real plus was the full-auto firearms sound effects, with just the right amount of bass. Though I doubt small arms would dent cylon armor.

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:08 AM

TUJIAOZUO

I give it a B+

I really enjoyed it for the most part the first time around (I had problems with it but I was still in the 'wow, that was epic!' fangirl mode), however I felt it got a little on the ridiculous side once I watched it again.

Cavil's Deus Ex Machina death was for me the first letdown (I excuse Hera's running away during combat due to the fact that she was follow prophecy, wasn't telling anyone but the girl was just doing what she was programmed with). One of Cavil's huge drives was he wanted to be the opitomy of perfection, a deity pretty much, and he loathed the flesh sack he had been created in and felt it to be rudimetary and disgusting. He also didn't want to die. So for a skinjob driven to not only save his race, but also wanting to live forever and evolve into a greater being, him eating his gun sucked. Someone should have killed him in that moment where Balter was giving his God speech. It would have been errupt, what with Balter getting all sentimental and then *bang* Cavil drops to the floor, but I would have liked it that way.

I initially liked the idea of leaving all technology behind and scratching out a living amongst the natives. Then I watched it again and realized that it was a rediculous idea as the elements, predators, illnesses and everything else going on in primordial earth would make life hell for the survivors and the population would soon dwindle because people would be keeling off due to such things as infections that could easily be treated by antibiotics or lions mauling the shit out of a clan. Not wise at all. Someone on another board suggested Galactica having been landed as gently as possible on Earth 2.0 and then having her disassembled and used to create a new city. I would have liked that.

Tyrol is alone, and apparently my Irish forefather?

Ellen and Tight better reinvent how to make alcohol or they're screwed.

And Kara is....?

Lee is alone because everyone up and abandons him. Granted I didn't want him to hook up with Kara, but I would have taken them as an explorer team. Mapping out the new world and all that jazz. But no, she disappears becuase she is not of this world and he's there, without anyone. Sucks to be him.

Giaus the farmer, was ironic and a great way to wrap his journey up. I loved how he started talking about it and began to cry and Caprica soothed him.

I admit, I liked Luara's death, I thought it was beautiful and poigniant and I seriously teared up when Bill put his ring on her finger.

But the 150,000 yr jump took me out of the moment it should have ended on and gave me this unnecessary 'look! we're headed that way!' message hammered over my head that killed the moment for me with Asimo and the gang being the potential harbingers of death when we meet the Singularity. I get it Ron Moore, I do, but you ruined the ending of your show by telling me something every Scifi program warns about. And for being a show that's cutting edge and the forefront of scifi, it cheapened the ending to go where everyone else has gone before.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 10:14 AM

SINGATE

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I understand what they were going for, but for a show that prides itself on "human" reactions, it was beyond silly that everyone bought into Lee's plan without protest.

I believe the whole idea was they were tired; tired of being dependent on technology, tired of living on spaceships. Even the people who would protest have probably had enough. Now maybe they should have kept a few things but I'm guessing that would have lead to "well if we need _____ then we should also hang onto _____" and so on. Lee summed it up perfectly when speaking to his father.

There are a few things which did not sit well with me.

1. If Kara's plan was to disappear I think it would have been more meaningful if she had flown away with Sam.

2. The realization of the opera house sequence was great, up until Caprica and Baltar entered the CIC. Having the final five just standing there that way seemed very staged. I did not like that moment at all.

3. Why does anybody trust Boomer at this point? Of all the possible stupid things to do leaving her alone with a Simon who is focused on his experiment has to rank right up there.

Other than those picked nits I really can't complain. The episode didn't feel rushed, in fact it was quite well paced. I was rather surprised that the Cylon conflict was resolved less than halfway through the episode. Not everything was answered but I am satisfied.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 2:33 PM

ASARIAN

I give it a B+, too. Much has already been said. And I agree with most, like how leaving behind all technology to go live off the sweat off your brow ain't exactly the most plausible scenario. But Gaius being God?? I'm confused. No wait, I think maybe they're confused! 'Course they never really spelled out what Gaius' continual visions were supposed to represent. Had he gone mental? Was it some kinda Cylon-2-Cylon communication? It was never really clear. But to steer the plot-finale towards the BDH's being major reigious figures, meh, that was pretty lame. First Kara pulled her bizarre, but neat ascension trick, as if she were Jesus herself (softly compounded by her speaking words to the effect of her work here on earth being completed); and then Gaius and Nr. 6 are allegedly God and one of His Angels? No. Can't. Too much of a stretch.

As for the rest of 'No more Mr. Nice Gaius,' of course there's no coming back from getting your own people nuked; but, far as I see it, he had been given an end to redeem himself. And he took that end. And you know... Well... He took it. And that's... I guess that's somethin'. At long last he didn't take the coward's way out with his groupies in 'Brown Sector,' but did the man thing. Good for him. Also, I was touched when he started crying there, for a moment. Whether it was just from the sheer panic of the moment, realizing they'd have to toil the land for survival, or whether in that one instance he felt connected to his old man, what with the farming and all, it was beautiful.

All-in-all, I thought it was a worthy ending to a worthy series. It had its flaws (a bad spell that started, say, halfway season 2, and only ended with the start of season 4). But they pulled themselves back up and delivered gripping, strong episodes, until the very end.

BSG, you will not be forgotten.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 6:20 PM

DREAMTROVE

I missed the final god speech, I didn't have sound for the last 5 min. That might be critical. I caught the earlier Caprica and Gaius scenes.

On the face of it, in MSM, everything has to be a zionist mission of some sort, and adama's ark was since it was first written, a zionist story. OTOH, so is everything else running. The neat part is the undercurrent.

Okay, Caprica, "Number 6" can it be any more blatant? Sure I'll go with the looney crowd and say she's the devil. Life long she controls Gaius. He's not a man in power, he's definitely not God, he's series long a man of intense self doubt projecting an image of confidence. This returns us to the beginning where he kicks her out, everything we already know, but it's intentionally here as a reminder: Gaius was part of a plan, never an instigator. Caprica is the devil, and Gaius is her instrument, the anti-christ.

150,000 years ago is a decent shot for the split of homosapiens from their predecessors. Some would mix, others wouldn't, they would remix, and resurface. If you wanted to read racism into this, it would be easy, but anyone concerned with petty social issues should watch dollhouse instead [/snark]

If it were me, writing this story, I would have only had Caprica in a crowd scene in the future, I would not have drawn in and focused on them. I would like to watch that last bit again with sound. But subtlety is key.

It was a decent end. Kara Thrace disappeared. I think there are a lot of potentially interesting answers to that. That she's Jesus is not one of those.

The religious overtones of everything that is permitted to broadcast today are like the state communist overtones of the soviet era, or the arch patriotism of war movies. It's not to be taken at face value. I think there are a lot of subversive things here.

There's raw material for a substory. Cylons are not going to abandon technology. If they do, they could make it from scratch in a year, and be back where they were. But with the scattering, the admiral will lose sight of his fleet (he may have already in the ships...)

I actually thought the fast forward ending was obvious without any fast forward at all. I knew if you put Caprica Six on Earth you were in for trouble, no matter what anyone said.

But, Gaius is human, maybe she builds a new Gaius?

There's a lot to think about here. I'll have to watch the whole thing over from the beginning.

As for the humans, there is no coincidence in this story. The coordinates come from the cylon code. This means the cylons have chosen this planet, built it, or, due to time travel, it is their home world. The presence of humans is probably their own creation. Cylon quest for procreation is real. They get so close, they aren't going to stop trying.

So, Cylons send off their old tin cans, of course they would, they want to disappear, that's their goal. Their new goal. Once, they wanted to fly, now they want invisibility. Tin can robots are very visible.

I still hold Gaius is a pawn. We see too much of his "wanting to believe" and becoming convinced over time. Starbuck is more than an apparition. If things can appear, they can disappear. And then there's the time travel issue again.

Interesting subtle generation change. The cylon leadership is outdated. It's goals and methods are a liability. A new Cylon leadership takes over, and that's an undercurrent that's been running for a long time. It arrived nicely at that destination.

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 2:43 AM

CALHOUN

BSG was my all time second favourite TV show but this last season really blew chunks as far as i'm concerned..

Anyone else notice Ron Moore reading the magazine whilst Six and Baltar are looking over his shoulder?

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 3:38 AM

MAL4PREZ

I'm a little surprised at the confusion over "immortal" Caprica 6 and Gaius, because I thought it was made pretty clear. The pair we saw in Earth's present time was not "real". They were angels. God (or whatever this diety likes to be called) put these two angels in the skin of Caprica No 6 and Gaius so they could talk to and manipulate the real people. The real couple settled with everyone else and died long ago, the angels hung around. And had to keep wearing the same skin because otherwise the TV viewership would have been very confused.

God works in mysterious ways, right? I think that's the core of it. The "visions" that Balter had of the seductive robot in red seemed to be evil, even devil-like, but it was actually God guiding him. Reminds me of Donnie Darko, in that we're been challenged to see God's hand even in people/events that we want to write off as evil.

I think it was also spelled out pretty clearly that Starbuck was another of these angels, though of a different sort. She didn't know what she was, and she was visible to everyone. Might not be a lot of logic behind that. It was probably just a dramatic choice. It is a TV show, after all.

Anyway, I did enjoy the ending, though plot holes remain. Mostly, I'm confused at how an entire planet of Cylon skinjobs existed 2000 years earlier. Until the discovery of Earth #1, I had thought that the Colonials invented the toasters which rebelled then went away for 40 years and invented the skinjobs. Clearly, that's not the case! Maybe this "from the cylon's side" special that they advertised will explain the Cyclon's history.

Leaving the tech behind was ridiculous. I didn't buy it either, not a bit.

Oh well. The show was still a really fun ride, I thought. Sad it's over.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 4:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Mal4Prez
Caprica 6 and Gaius... not "real" ... angels.

Send me a link to the last 5 min with sound, and I'll comment. I am deeply hoping this is not the answer, that is so uninteresting. The way I understood it, angels were visions, hence, possibly programs, that cylons could see. There was all this noise about Daniel a few eps back. Not clear on that.

My conclusion was, ah, so Caprica Six is satan. But it's better than that, or could be.

Quote:
Starbuck was another of these angels

I was afraid of this. I think it's a dumb development, as is Gaius being any more than a manipulated prick. The real problem is the overal problem: These characters are intensely conflicted and emotional and interesting.

Quote:
It is a TV show, after all.

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Silly me, looking for meaning in a vacuum.

Quote:
I did enjoy the ending, though plot holes remain.

The biggest one for me was that it was not at all consistent with anything else that happened in the show, not the characters, events, nothing.

I was disappointed about the kill list:

Select to view spoiler:

I wanted a hero's death for Baltar and Adama, of different natures.

I wanted Boomer to live. Because that's how life is.

But even the last ep is internally inconsistent. It flashes back to Caprica Six manipulating an all to human and weak Gaius Baltar. This is reality, and it should remain reality for the show. Some last minute religious twist isn't going to make this not so.

I always assumed that part of the reason that Baltar had visions was that the principle defining character structure was an excess of denial covering a fatal dose of guilt, on top of a truly flawed self serving individual.

I didn't have the same issue you mention here because there was already mention of time travel. Coordinates are or can be space-time coordinates. That's perfectly acceptable to me.

Quote:
Clearly, that's not the case!

Cyclical history. Cylons are forever inventing themselves. And then getting into a war with humans, losing, going back in time to try to get it right. We invented them once, and then we were stuck with the problem forever. This is a pretty logical conclusion if your cyborgs invent time travel. This is the logical conclusion of T:SCC as well.

Anything in the story that conflicts with that conclusion is either clever or sappy, and I'm afraid some of this was the latter.

Quote:

Leaving the tech behind was ridiculous. I didn't buy it either, not a bit.

Oh, yes, let's embrace cholera everyone. This ties to one of the gaping holes in the show overall. Why no one at any point put a bullet in the back of Adama's head is not just a stunning display of stupidity, it's a story hole a parsec wide. Even knowing everything about the reality, which I don't, but I know enough to know that if any character on the show knew the whole of it, that almost anyone there would still cap Adama before Gaius, if only by a matter of seconds.

Quote:

Oh well. The show was still a really fun ride, I thought. Sad it's over.

True. But it's not... There's Caprica. Of course, this finale totally screwed any potential for making that an interesting story. Caprica could either turn into a silmarillion backstory or a T:SCC backstory, and no one is really that interested in the former I suspect.

Oh, and I enjoyed the last season, I thought it was great, in spite of, rather than because of the religious overtones. I don't think TV does anything but religious propaganda anymore. The best you can hope for is religious propaganda with social commentary and characters, stories, maybe a little humor.

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:58 AM

ZIGGO

I don't like the goal of breaking the "cycle" as the reason for abandoning technology.That is simply starting the cycle over at the beginning. They had to have known that it would "all happen again". there had to be a better solution from a roomful of writers than "delay the inevitable"

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:22 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Mal4Prez
Caprica 6 and Gaius... not "real" ... angels.

Send me a link to the last 5 min with sound, and I'll comment. I am deeply hoping this is not the answer, that is so uninteresting. The way I understood it, angels were visions, hence, possibly programs, that cylons could see. There was all this noise about Daniel a few eps back. Not clear on that

I don't have a link to the 150,000 years later scene, but when I saw it I didn't think had the actual #6 standing there with some Cyclon-rebuilt Baltar. I even got the impression that the people around them couldn’t see or hear them. I'm not sure how I got that idea and can't claim to be right, not until I see the scene again.

Anyhow, the interviews in the "making of" deal that played a few hours before the final episode laid some heavy hints that Baltar's private #6 was an angel, a messenger from God. It certainly was discussed a lot. Try this, especially about a minute in:

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/?clip=10

Quote:
Quote:
Starbuck was another of these angels

I was afraid of this. I think it's a dumb development, as is Gaius being any more than a manipulated prick. The real problem is the overal problem: These characters are intensely conflicted and emotional and interesting.

I wasn't fond of Starbuck disappearing at first. But it makes some sense, more than her settling into Brady Bunch happiness with blondified Apollo. She was dead after all. And it made it very clear to me that she was in fact an angel. Kind of reminds me of Gandalf, who died but got sent back more powerful so he could finish the job.

Quote:
Quote:
It is a TV show, after all.

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Silly me, looking for meaning in a vacuum.

Sorry - I wasn't meaning to jab at you or anyone when I said that. I really mean to remind myself, because I do like getting very analytical. But some details of a TV show's plot aren't as relevant as I'd like to make them. Those folks have to tell their tale in a limited time with limited budget, network hags telling them what to air, a large and varied audience to please, etc.

BTW the head writer guy did flat out say that he was more interested in characters then plot. He certainly left some weak plot points in to get more juiciness out of the character interactions. I think Starbuck is the prime example of this.

Quote:
The biggest one for me was that it was not at all consistent with anything else that happened in the show, not the characters, events, nothing.

Really? As Mal would say: Hunh.

Quote:
But even the last ep is internally inconsistent. It flashes back to Caprica Six manipulating an all to human and weak Gaius Baltar. This is reality, and it should remain reality for the show. Some last minute religious twist isn't going to make this not so.

The religious “twist” was hardly new. That's been going on from get go, and was pushed pretty hard through the last season with so many characters having visions and such. Caprica 6 manipulating weak Gaius is pretty much par for the show as well.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Quote:
I always assumed that part of the reason that Baltar had visions was that the principle defining character structure was an excess of denial covering a fatal dose of guilt, on top of a truly flawed self serving individual.

And I think it's just good writing that it could have been his brain on the fritz from guilt, or it could have been an implanted chip, or it could have been Satan, or it could have been God. But events in the last episode made it pretty clear to me, especially when the "real" Balter and #6 both came face to face with the "spirit" Baltar and #6.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 12:38 PM

CAUSAL

*snip*

Since this seems to be the hate-on-the-finale thread, and since I liked it--not for its realism or lack thereof, but because of the content of what it had to say (which is the value of sci-fi in the first place)--I'm not sure I have anything to add. Enjoy your displeasure.

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:56 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
I don't have a link to the 150,000 years later scene, but when I saw it I didn't think had the actual #6 standing there with some Cyclon-rebuilt Baltar. I even got the impression that the people around them couldn’t see or hear them. I'm not sure how I got that idea and can't claim to be right, not until I see the scene again.

As long as there is an interpretation on that order, it's possible that Caprica can be saved. The cycle is interesting, it implies that Humans invent Cylons, Cylons take over Humans, Humans battle Cylons, Cylons invent time travel and go back to the beginning and start over. It's the ultimate unwinnable war. If T:SCC is clever, it will realize that it is in the exact same paradox. If BSG brings actual god into it, they kill the show concept, because the cycle is the only thing that makes the story make sense. If they kill the show concept, then they have nothing left for the next series than a pointless backstory of somewhere in the middle of the cycle.

Quote:
Anyhow, the interviews in the "making of" deal that played a few hours before the final episode laid some heavy hints that Baltar's private #6 was an angel, a messenger from God. It certainly was discussed a lot. Try this, especially about a minute in:

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/?clip=10

Yeah, I didn't have any doubt about the writers and angels, I just have problems with it. I know that Katee desperately wanted to be a cylon, and that manifests itself in the show, by having Kara desperately want it. But also, she's filled with pathos and so down to earth, if she were just an angel, she'd just appear to serve her purpose. We see her do a whole lot more than that. I mean, if she's an angel, it's on a nicholas cage level, but that's not as interesting as making her be a next generation cylon.

The angels as entities idea as opposed to angels as cylon projection is a potential gaping story hole. This isn't some random prime time drama where your fantasy element can be religion, it's science fiction, and it's a mix of classical and biblical... It deserves a better explanation.

It's one thing that really annoys me about the format of television is that some writer can screw things up for everyone else, even if they're a really good writer. It needs to be reigned in to one consistent reality.

The short of it is Baltar never acts like anything above a flawed human, with visions. I saw those as manipulating him, not as some sign of divine providence.

Quote:
I wasn't fond of Starbuck disappearing at first. But it makes some sense, more than her settling into Brady Bunch happiness with blondified Apollo. She was dead after all. And it made it very clear to me that she was in fact an angel. Kind of reminds me of Gandalf, who died but got sent back more powerful so he could finish the job.

Yes, but that was corny even in LotR. The fact is that the character was desperate, conflicted, and interesting. Angels are boring, unless they're a cylon projection. With all offense intended and no interest in arguing, western religion is based on an entertaining but uninteresting fairy tale. It's imaginative in its depictions, but very simplistic in its pivotal plot elements. The holy bible and Star Wars share that in common, with the difference that the former is probably better written, and the latter has better special effects. God was always in this story, but it doesn't really have a place in sci-fi. I imagine it will find a home in SyFy :)

I'm interested in Cybernetika, not in Theology. If I were, I'd watch something else.

Interesting: Human belief in God and its conflict with machines
Boring: Machines belief in God
Interesting: Machines using God to manipulate humans

I like Cylons, more than I like humans. I think this is probably overall true of the audience, which is why it has an audience. I'd been hoping that Starbuck had been reborn as a new Cylon-Human crossbred clone in the interests of Cylon reproduction.

An apparition has no point in existance if there is no one to see it. I assumed them to be Cylon projections, anything else is somewhat uninteresting, IMHO.

I'm deeply afraid that you are right, and that this is the intension and the more I look into it, the more I will find that, but some other interpretation, if possible, has a potential future, whereas this one does not. Since they're planning a new series in 2010, it's not going anywhere unless there's a viable working dynamic.

If it does die, I have to become a vulture, pick its bones, and try to build something new, stealing as everyone does or should.

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It is a TV show, after all.

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Silly me, looking for meaning in a vacuum.

Sorry - I wasn't meaning to jab at you or anyone when I said that. I really mean to remind myself, because I do like getting very analytical. But some details of a TV show's plot aren't as relevant as I'd like to make them. Those folks have to tell their tale in a limited time with limited budget, network hags telling them what to air, a large and varied audience to please, etc.

Oh, that wasn't sarcasm. I meant it, even if it sounded sarcastic. I think I need now a [/not sarcasm] :) Truthfully, much of what I say is sarcastic, and the inability to denote sarcasm is an issue online. I just had an online fight with someone in RL over this, because of the failure of sarcasm to come through. We need a netiquette to carry all of this.

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BTW the head writer guy did flat out say that he was more interested in characters then plot. He certainly left some weak plot points in to get more juiciness out of the character interactions. I think Starbuck is the prime example of this.

This is fairly obvious in the result. Still, characters are probably more important than plot. I think story arc is very important, also more important than plot. A finale has special importance to a story arc.

But if we take the plotline and story arc of Buffy there's really nothing there. It's all character.

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The biggest one for me was that it was not at all consistent with anything else that happened in the show, not the characters, events, nothing.

Really? As Mal would say: Hunh.

Tremendously so. The thing is, it's a character story, and the characters are not leading to this conclusion. They are deeply conflicted individuals, not gods, or noble heroes.

That anyone would follow Adama after landing on Earth or do anything other than put a bullet in the back of his head was a suspension of disbelief for me. I know this would have been a cruel ending for the show. Roslin's death was incredibly predictable. I just want to know, alternate ending, who is going to cap adama in the back of the head, the most oh he so had it coming event that the writers would never do.

I liked this one: Starbuck shoots him, and he has time to ask why, and she says because I'm a cylon. the next generation, that would've been frakking awesome.

I would have liked to see Boomer through to the end, she would be a great one to do it as well. And then say something cryptic. Nothing personal sir, just a mission objective.

But seriously, visions aside, Gaius is a pathetic tool. He's an archetypal tragic character, undone by his own internal flaw, it's classical.

In fact, back to cybernetika for a moment, the irony of Caprica Six as the machine helmsman, and Gaius as the completely human tool is just brilliant beauty. I thought this was one of the best story ideas ever. If you can turn Plato completely on his head, you're doing pretty well. I think when people get into their "oh what would be a wacky twist" mode they sometimes lose sight of the inspiration.

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But even the last ep is internally inconsistent. It flashes back to Caprica Six manipulating an all to human and weak Gaius Baltar. This is reality, and it should remain reality for the show. Some last minute religious twist isn't going to make this not so.

The religious “twist” was hardly new. That's been going on from get go, and was pushed pretty hard through the last season with so many characters having visions and such. Caprica 6 manipulating weak Gaius is pretty much par for the show as well.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Hardly new? It was the founding premise of the show when it was written in the 1960s. The cancellation of star trek was the thing which scuttled adama's ark, and the success of star wars was what resurrected it, reimagined as battlestar galactica. The producers liked the new name because it was star wars like, but it was alwayys intended as an ark, not a warship. The cylons are the complication that gives you a story, and sure, the re-reimagined cylon infiltrators are far more interesting.

I didn't mean that there would be a twist in making the show religious. I meant the twist in the religion of the show. It was always religious.

Number Six I alway took as a demonic revelations reference, not a random number. A quick search on Caprica returns Carpicorn, the goat
The negative of the feminine
Provider of ambrosia
Associated with Saturn Pan Enki
This is some curious company to keep.

"Caprica 6 manipulating weak Gaius is pretty much par for the show as well."

That was my point. Gaius being a god, messenger of god, or partner in an ultimate destiny is not. I had Gaius picked for a hero's death, probably a suicidal one.

I felt there was an inversion of the religious message in the finale that by itself wasn't show destroying, but from the point of view of making another series was really damaging.

Now they've done so much damage it's hard to see the point of a prequel. We have time travelling cylons, okay, we already had that, but as creating a cyclical history of inventing themselves, then the prequel becomes meaningless, more so if it's all about gods and angels.

I always expected the heavily religious overtones, and outside of the model of everything is now religious propaganda, I would be disappointed if they weren't there. Kara Thrace was way too human... I'm wondering if it's worth rewatching the entire series to piece together.

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I always assumed that part of the reason that Baltar had visions was that the principle defining character structure was an excess of denial covering a fatal dose of guilt, on top of a truly flawed self serving individual.

And I think it's just good writing that it could have been his brain on the fritz from guilt, or it could have been an implanted chip, or it could have been Satan, or it could have been God. But events in the last episode made it pretty clear to me, especially when the "real" Balter and #6 both came face to face with the "spirit" Baltar and #6.

this is just the sort of problem that I have.

TV writers are always frakking with someone else's storyline. Someone will set up something brilliant and someone else will do something moronic with it. This almost automatically dooms television.

I assumed he was consumed with guilt, but that he had also been partially cylonized at some point. If he's a manipulated human, than it's far easier if you slip him a mickey finn at some point and implant some sort of chip receiver for cylon projection.

If I'm a writer inheriting this story after the finale, which is the angle I'm looking at it from, as in, is this worth trying to write for, then the first question is how to deal with the resolution I've been handed to which the only logical extension I can make any use of is if the co-projection is just the further manipulation of Gaius.

Why even bother? Well, a number of reasons. Caprica Six in 150,000 BC is right there inventing religion. Now that's interesting, to me anyway.

It's important to flash back to how this story starts: Gaius was not picked because he had some special spiritual energy, he was picked, IMHO, because he was the weakest human on the planet with any kind of ability to influence events. If I were an evil cyborg, I'd pick Gaius as a tool too. I kinda feel that we just had him as president. [/political snark]

But seriously, just from a writing perspective of what's interesting

Here's what's boring, that the heirs to the story who would have to write it would have to deal with:

This is all God's plan and Baltar is an agent of God. Boy does that suck as a place to start your story.

Caprica is the beast as an evil time travelling robot that manipulates humanity to her own end in a vicious cyclical history to forward her own ends of an internal tragic dilemma attempting to avoid her own extinction, and to this end creates relgion? That's interesting. From a writing perspective.

As a writer, one of these is a premise I'd like to write from, the other is an impossible dead end from which nothing of interest could be derived, and I don't just say that as a non-western religious thinking, but as a writer of science fiction. It's potentially one of the most interesting or boring ideas ever.

Star Trek died for me when I realized that the crux of the story was humanity is on a track for a socialist utopia of eternal peace where we all accept our duty and place in a uniform galactic society and human failing are not generally tolerated, purity of loyalty to the ultimate cause over loyalty to the direct authority as the only true conflict.

That bored me to tears. Human failings are interesting. Crackhead utopias are not. Technology changing society is interesting, difference and clash is interesting, a society with technological superpowers that almost never change is boring. A clash between a known moral superior and moral inferior for the victory of moral superiority is extremely boring.

So, taking this as the next trick in the deception of Gaius would be an interesting twist, useful, if that interpretation would work. If it won't, I think that 2010 Caprica is just doomed before it even begins. It makes the evolution of AI T:SCC irrelevant. AI is only relevant if it *is* god, satan, and everything else. I personally love the idea that religion is a manipulation fed into the human race like a computer virus by a self serving cyclical cylon.

Plus, totally understandable, Tricia Helfer is mad hot.

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Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:58 PM

DREAMTROVE

Finally "heard" the final few minutes dialogue. The angels are really present. I'm not sure I like this concept, or that it's fitting. Angel Gaius is hard to fit into the concept overall, I like #6 in his head, I think he's a haunted man, but angels with no one to talk to just become an evolution of science. Humans as the descendents of humans and cylons is possibly silly, it does leave Caprica, the show, nowhere to go.

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Saturday, October 24, 2009 4:58 PM

JAMERON4EVA

To mee the most shocking points in the finalie are when Col. Tigh finds out that his wife is a cylon model,(just like him), and also when Starbuck, FRACKING MOTHERFRACKING STARBUCK, was revealed to be one of the final models.

OH HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!

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Saturday, October 24, 2009 5:05 PM

PEULSAR5

We sniff the air, we don't kiss the dirt.

I kinda flop back and forth on the finale. The final battle was fantastic, but the ending kinda had me going "huh?" Aside from the metaphysical angle, I had a little trouble with the "everyone give up everything and let's go live in caves and huts."

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Saturday, October 24, 2009 9:50 PM

CALHOUN

The first couple of seasons of BSG were awesome, one of my favourite shows. The rest of it went downhill so fast and ended so pathetically that I can't even rewatch the first couple of seasons because I know its going to end the way it does..

Ron Moore should go back and produce an alternate ending in an attempt to regain some respect. I'll never be drawn into anything of his again.

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Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

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Originally posted by Calhoun:
The first couple of seasons of BSG were awesome, one of my favourite shows. The rest of it went downhill so fast and ended so pathetically that I can't even rewatch the first couple of seasons because I know its going to end the way it does..

Ron Moore should go back and produce an alternate ending in an attempt to regain some respect. I'll never be drawn into anything of his again.

But tell us how you REALLY feel!

The T.Rex they call JANE!

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Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:48 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

How the fans reacted

http://frakheads.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=5310&postdays=0&postor
der=asc&start=0&sid=b59034f5d0aa87cb6421004116f1ab5e

The plan? Confused The plan? Shocked WHAT F*CKING PLAN??? Laughing I thought that 'sshole Moore admitted the Cylons had no f*cking plan! F*ck the final f*cking season SHOWED THE CYLONS HAD NO PLAN! F*ck this shit! Moore isn't going to p'ss up my back and make me think it is rain!

Battlestar Galactica jumped the shark

http://villageidiotsavant.blogspot.com/2007/04/battlestar-galactica-ju
mped-shark.html

http://forums.syfy.com/index.php?showtopic=2337646
God did it! [ 10 ] [30.30%] Starbuck is magic! [ 6 ] [18.18%] Let's abandon technology and kill ourselves! [ 12 ] [36.36%] Who turned out the lights? I feel a song coming on! [ 0 ] [0.00%] One year later ... [ 0 ] [0.00%] 150,000 years later ... [ 3 ] [9.09%] Other (write in) [ 2 ] [6.06%]

There are new posters for Crapotica. RDM is still clinging to good old Bible motifs
http://frakheads.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=61659&sid=6c6e8a75a674
94e5db5100930b790e6e

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