Dollhouse: Man on the Street. Do you think it delivered? by Haken

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Also, when he comes back, the previously closed door is ajar. That could be misdirection, I suppose. Guess now I'll just have to watch it again, see if any hints for Topher being the mole pop out at me.

Well, I just thought of another one (see my *edit*). And I didn't even notice the door, doh.

Quote:

One other thing, though, I'm remembering Echo saying "We have a person on the inside." rather than the more common phrase, "We have a man on the inside." Am I wrong? Well, still more reason to watch again...

Yes, she did say that. Though, in all fairness, even had she said man, I think "We have a man on the inside." is just a generic phrase, like you say, and could well refer to a woman, too.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:31 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Ah, but it's not generic, it's common, there is a distinction

At the time the phrase originated, it was a man on the inside, pretty much exclusively. Often, when using the archaic phrase to refer to a woman, a correction would shortly follow. Maybe it's not significant, but it sprang to my mind.

And I saw your edit, and my post was shortly edited accordingly. I thought I was fast enough no one would notice, hehe.

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Often, when using the archaic phrase to refer to a woman, a correction would shortly follow. Maybe it's not significant, but it sprang to my mind.

English not being my native tongue, I'll take your word for it.

Quote:

And I saw your edit, and my post was shortly edited accordingly. I thought I was fast enough no one would notice, hehe.

And I guess I was just a mite too late to see your edit 'bout my edit. :) These things happen.

I'll go check out your ShinyUniverse thread now (though I'm not all that comfortable navigating ShinyUniverse yet). But it certainly looks like you found a gem or two. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:14 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Truly, there is a LOT of stuff on Shiny Universe, and it can be difficult to navigate all the myriad stuff. Also truly, I've found some golden nuggets

English isn't your native tongue? I wouldn't have guessed that, and if I at any point knew that, I'd forgotten, sorry about that. What is?

[/sig]

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I did find myself wondering about DeWitt's voice on the answering machine as well. I wonder if that will lead anywhere? For now, I'm assuming there's a bit in Mellie's program that tells her to delete the message. Might be weak, but if they can trigger her to snap a man's neck, surely they can build in a trigger to push a button.

Not that weak, really. Or maybe the 'unsafe' word (to paraphrase Simon) only works once. But yeah, she's likely programmed to erase it. Otherwise, I wonder what happens when she, oh, goes shopping with her mom or something, and she decides to quickly play her messages again before they leave the house? Could get messy. :)

Quote:

Actually, as I'm currently rewatching it, Ballard is being strangled by one of the security guys when Echo is pulled out of the kitchen, making it rather difficult for him to leave off at that moment.

Yeah. And I kinda withdraw my earlier objection in that regard. In fact, he was so pre-occupied, I now think it should probably have surprised him even that she was gone, after the fight. Still, Boyd waltzing in all the time. pulling a near Deus ex Machina, really is pushing the envelope a bit. But then again, there were a lot of men in the house, and Ballard doesn't know Boyd from Adam, either; so to him (should he have even noticed it with whatever eye he could spare at the time) it may just have looked like one of the security folks was getting the missus out of harm's way.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
English isn't your native tongue? I wouldn't have guessed that, and if I at any point knew that, I'd forgotten, sorry about that. What is?

It's Dutch, actually. Great language! Unfortunately, it don't get you very far in this crap hill 'Verse. :) So, English it is.

P.S. Echo, aka Rebecca, going on about hubby being in porn was hi-frakkin-larious. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, March 23, 2009 8:30 AM

ZEEK

Topher is nervous when talking to Boyd because he's lying to him about Echo's engagement. He knows they're sending Echo out to fight/kill Ballard and he tells Boyd that they're sending her to some doctor to do something non-violent. He's obviously been ordered to keep this information from Boyd so he's nervous.

I don't see why people think this technology is so advanced that only Topher could know how to use it. There are 20 or more dollhouses and the news reporter says the rumors date back to the late 80's. Which means the tech was there long before Topher. If anything he's just been trained to use it. He didn't develop it. Which means just about anyone in the Dollhouse could have gained access to the information needed to program a Doll. Plus once someone knows how to program a Doll they don't need to be anywhere near that room to do it. They can just program a Doll to do their bidding while they distract Topher. Meaning Boyd is not ruled out by any means. Right now I'd focus more on motive than means.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 9:27 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I think having access to the computer in some way is still necessary for programming, so unless you're suggesting that Boyd could telepathically tamper with the imprint while he was talking to Topher, I really don't think it was Boyd.
Clearly, Topher isn't the only one ever who can use this technology, but it's also clearly more than just point-and-click, it's a science which must be learned and comprehended. My suspicions therefore fall more strongly on the scientists, highly trained, and long-term employees within the Dollhouse. Such as, say, Ivy, Dr. Saunders, DeWitt... gosh, I feel somehow like I'm repeating myself.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 9:58 AM

Well, and plus, there is that whole freak-out that Topher has about who could've snagged their frequencies.

I'll admit that he would have to be a REALLY good actor to be faking that.

But anyway. In his freak-out, he ultimately concludes that no one else besides himself or Alpha could do that, including his counterpart in a Japanese dollhouse. And while he's a pretty arrogant guy (unless it's an act), he goes through all the other candidates so methodically before giving a reason for dismissing them that I'm inclined to believe him when he says he's the best.

I don't know what significance that has on him being the mole, if any. Just my take on it.

But no, I also agree that people besides Topher could possibly learn how to do it.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 10:42 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I think having access to the computer in some way is still necessary for programming, so unless you're suggesting that Boyd could telepathically tamper with the imprint while he was talking to Topher, I really don't think it was Boyd.

No I'm suggesting if you can program a Doll then you can program one to mess with programming when you're out of the room. 2 + 2 = 4

It also actually looked exactly point and clickish when Topher was making his program. He may have needed training to know what to put together, but still he was just pointing and clicking.

They're obviously able to train new employees to program dolls. Which means there's documentation somewhere. If someone got access to that and studied then they can program dolls.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 11:23 AM

Honestly, I don't know why everyone thinks that there is a mole. My read on the situation is that Echo was sent by Dewitt to do exactly what she did...convince Ballard to do things more quietly and misdirect him, eventually tipping him off to the attack on Mellie, which will be another thing that will get him to stop being as vocal. I see Echo taking over the role that Victor had played, giving Ballard fake information that he'll take as being credible. I may be wrong (Joss does tend to pull things out of nowhere), but that's the way things seemed to be put out in a rather straightforward fashion.

Also, Dewitt knows that Echo's remembering things, which could lead to her having a composite event like Alpha, but there didn't seem to be much of a reaction to the knowledge. I can't tell you how glad I am that the formulaic "Echo knows something" wasn't repeated. The first time it happened was a holy crap moment (shoulder to the wheel), but every time after that was a bit tedious. This one, while demonstrating that she knows something she shouldn't, was more natural and brings up the fact that Dewitt is aware that she remembers, which may have interesting consequences.

I'm a leaf on the wind

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Monday, March 23, 2009 12:19 PM

KHAMBILO

yeah. Adelle, from previous episodes, has shown us that she would be very put off if something like Alpha were to happen again.

Yet throughout "Man in the Street" her behavior is irrational. She sends a rogue handler to take a Doll and then interrupts it by activating some imbedded killing skills in Mellie. Thus we have a dead ex-handler in a FBI agent's apartment with a Doll. It's Irractional for her to make that decision.

And at the end she knows that Echo remembers.

My thoughts: Adelle is aware in the imperfections of Dollhouse. However with the reveal of multiple dollhouses, it is my belief the Adelle is seeking to make her Dollhouse independent. Echo may be the key to doing this. I don't think she's in on it with Alpha, but she knows Alpha and is using his anger and his particular fixation with Echo to achieve her own ends.

One thing is sure though: There is is most definately more to Adelle than meets the eye.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 12:28 PM

Actually, the "Echo remembers something" moment was repeated. The picture she was painting was the house of the internet mogul.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 1:25 PM

DMI

Expired, forgotten, spoiled rotten.

Definitely the best Dollhouse episode yet. Just got around to seeing it last night because I watched the Battlestar finale (a great end to one of the greatest scifi shows of all time) on friday night.

Dollhouse doesn't compare to shows like Firefly, Battlestar, or the better Trek eps yet but, this was a huge step in the right direction and after the solid performance from the week before that, I'd say the show has hit it's stride. As for mole theories, I think its the lady at the top, the one in charge with the accent. She seemed a little bit worried when the rapist brought up how they're in the business of using people and if someone is sucked in and can't get out, it's her.
-e

A blog on the struggles of an unpublished writer: http://www.blogiversity.org/blogs/dmi/default.aspx

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Monday, March 23, 2009 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Actually, the "Echo remembers something" moment was repeated. The picture she was painting was the house of the internet mogul.

Yes, but it was handled differently than just throwing it out there at the end of the episode, using it for the shock value that after the first time, ceases to be a shock. That is what I meant. It is apparent that she remembers, referring to the uncompleted engagement when she says "it's not finished", as Dewitt notices.

It was the treatment of the remembering that I was referring to when I said "Echo remembers something" moment, not that she doesn't remember anything at the end of the episode, which is why I used the word formulaic at the beginning of the phrase.

I'm a leaf on the wind

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Monday, March 23, 2009 1:45 PM

Whoa, wait, are you saying that last sequence was DeWitt sending her back?

That did not occur to me. o.o

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Monday, March 23, 2009 9:04 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Yep, I think so. Remember at the beginning in the tape of Caroline, she keeps saying how she wants to make a difference. Well, I think that's coming through in Echo's behavior. For some reason DeWitt admires that quality (her adaptability and her wanting to make a difference I mean) in Echo and she sent her back.

Echo also helped Sierra by alerting Boyd to the fact that she would cry in her pod. I think that DeWitt could very well be that mole on the inside that is looking to bring down the DH. For one thing she's keeping him alive. Second, I believe she sent that message (through Echo) for him to keep away, for now.

Someone on this thread mentioned the phone message to the sleeper active in Ballard's apt. Remember he is being monitored by DeWitt, I'm sure that she has the technology available to her that will keep her voice from being recorded.

Like I said, this is getting good.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:14 AM

Yes, the last sequence is Dewitt sending her back. Echo says that it isn't finished, then Dewitt asks her if she wants it to be finished, both referring to the uncompleted engagement. When Echo repeats that it isn't finished, she is indicating that it needs to be, at least in her own mind, so Dewitt sends her back.

I'm a leaf on the wind

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:40 AM

ZEEK

Isn't Millie in her apartment when she gets attacked? Why do people keep saying she's in Ballard's apartment? I don't think the answering machine is much of a problem. If it's Millie's apartment then the answering machine could be designed to auto delete messages from Dewitt or Millie could just be programmed to delete them herself. If it's Ballard's apartment then that's a little different.

I'll have to go back and look for details of which apartment she's in at some point.

Even if Dewitt isn't the mole there's still something going on with her and Ballard. Why would she leave him alive? Before I wanted to say that killing the FBI agent investigating the Dollhouse might only serve to increase the FBI's interest in the case. Now that he's off the case there's no real reason to leave him alive.

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:54 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
if you can program a Doll then you can program one to mess with programming when you're out of the room.

That still leaves the problem of initial programming. Everything (or nearly everything) is monitored in the Dollhouse. Illicit programs can't be a simple thing to sneak.

I can agree the theory that there is no mole and it's just Ballard being messed with is a sound one, but that seems so much less interesting to me. Kind of a let down. Though, it is Joss, and he's made a lot of things palatable that I might not have been able to stomach in less skilled hands.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Isn't Millie in her apartment when she gets attacked? Why do people keep saying she's in Ballard's apartment?

Because she'd just gotten it on with Ballard in his apartment, and was wandering around his apartment in nothing but one of his shirts waiting for him to get back with spring rolls so they could eat and go over his case files, also presumably located in his apartment, and Mellie is being thrown around a distinctly masculine decor of his apartment. Oh, and when the answering machine picks up it's Ballard's voice that says "Leave a message."

[/sig]

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:29 PM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I think having access to the computer in some way is still necessary for programming, so unless you're suggesting that Boyd could telepathically tamper with the imprint while he was talking to Topher, I really don't think it was Boyd.

I assumed Boyd was cooperating with the mole by distracting Topher so that the mole could tamper with Echo's program.

Which makes Saunders the mole, in my opinion.

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:07 PM

RIVERDANCER

In cahoots, cooperating, same dif. Sounds like the three of us agree on Boyd's role, at least. I'm having trouble picking a favorite on who did the actual tampering, though.

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rhyianan:
Honestly, I don't know why everyone thinks that there is a mole. My read on the situation is that Echo was sent by Dewitt to do exactly what she did... convince Ballard to do things more quietly and misdirect him, eventually tipping him off to the attack on Mellie, which will be another thing that will get him to stop being as vocal. I see Echo taking over the role that Victor had played, giving Ballard fake information that he'll take as being credible. I may be wrong (Joss does tend to pull things out of nowhere), but that's the way things seemed to be put out in a rather straightforward fashion.

I ain't saying it ain't true. After all, there's no better way to control a resistance movement than to fake that movement yourself (I'm thinking '1984', the book, for instance). But it's also taking an incredible risk: tell a tenacious mofo like Ballard that the Dollhouse is real, and he'll never let go, ever, as in never.

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverDancer:
In cahoots, cooperating, same dif. Sounds like the three of us agree on Boyd's role, at least. I'm having trouble picking a favorite on who did the actual tampering, though.

Boyd is a smart cookie; but he's street smart, ex-cop. I honestly don't see him as a computer wiz (unless that's part of his cover; but then, by that token, just about everyone qualifies). Also, as stated, there's cameras everywhere. Ivy, in that regard, is the only one who can hang around the place without drawing attention to herself. And has the intellectual and technical wherewithall to pull it off. She could easily slip in a new tape without anyone noticing. Adelle, on the other hand, is brass; she'd have to come all the way down in her wee elevator to get to Topher's office (if I got the layout right). Same goes for Dr. Saunders (she's on the ground level, no?).

My money is still on Ivy -- in more than one way. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:22 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I find the upside-down "AnGER" written on that base of the imprinting chair has a certain aesthetic appeal, wouldn't you, PhoenixRose? Great find. :)

You missed a letter. The word is DANGER.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:47 AM

Ah, I misinterpretted that as an ampersand, and since it didn't have any immediate meaning to me in relation to the rest of the word, I threw it out.

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rhyianan:
Honestly, I don't know why everyone thinks that there is a mole. My read on the situation is that Echo was sent by Dewitt to do exactly what she did... convince Ballard to do things more quietly and misdirect him, eventually tipping him off to the attack on Mellie, which will be another thing that will get him to stop being as vocal. I see Echo taking over the role that Victor had played, giving Ballard fake information that he'll take as being credible. I may be wrong (Joss does tend to pull things out of nowhere), but that's the way things seemed to be put out in a rather straightforward fashion.

I ain't saying it ain't true. After all, there's no better way to control a resistance movement than to fake that movement yourself (I'm thinking '1984', the book, for instance). But it's also taking an incredible risk: tell a tenacious mofo like Ballard that the Dollhouse is real, and he'll never let go, ever, as in never.

But do you think he would let the dollhouse go even if nobody ever told him it was real? He got shot and it didn't even phase him. Honestly, I don't think he ever would have stopped either way. At least with Echo feeding him information, he's under dollhouse control, less likely to make a ruckus, believing that he is helping to work the system from the inside. It's safer for them if he believes he is making a difference, even if all he is really doing is running in place taking the crumbs they throw him. However, if the rumors are true and

Select to view spoiler:

Echo & co regain memories and she leads a breakout in ep 8,

then Ballard won't be lead around in circles for very long.

I'm a leaf on the wind

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Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:41 PM