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Originally posted by Storymark:
Yeah - it's a pretty unfair expectation. Very few people ever change the world. Even fewer do it more than once. Especially once they're (sorry older guys) past their prime as opposed to at their peak, and the head of a massively profitable company living a life of luxury as opposed to a hungry (literally and metaphorically) young artist trying to establish himself.

You are also comparing a man who approached the medium in a way no one had really done before, to one who was faced with revisting a style that (because of him) had become the standard in many ways.

The differences in context are huge. So, yeah, it probably was unreasonable to expect him to capture lightning in a bottle again.

Don't get me wrong - there are big problems with the prequels, and I don't think they equal the originals for the most part (I consider Sith and Jedi to be pretty close). I flat out hate most of TPM. I could go on and on about what could have/should have been changed - because, like everyone else, I imagined my own perfect prequels. But the prequels are still better and more imaginative than 90% of the big F/X driven blockbusters out there, but many people let their own, impossible to fulfill expectations, ruin their enjoyment of the things the movies did do well.

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Originally posted by two:
My criteria for quality in movies is always... Money Made.

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Originally posted by lwaves:

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Originally posted by two:
My criteria for quality in movies is always... Money Made.

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So your saying that the more money a movie makes the greater the quality of that movie?
... There are a lot of other factors to consider besides money. ...

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Where does that put Serenity by following your criteria?

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by Zeek:

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Why is that? I don't think it's out of line to say he changed the world with Star Wars. I bet there are plenty of people who's entire lives were changed by the originals. I don't even know if I would have become an enginerd if it weren't for star wars.

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When you're a child sure you're more impressionable - but as an adult?

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Is it that far fetched to think that he could change the world again?

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For us who grew up since having watched the originals yes I think it is far fetched. For kids of the generation of I, II & III there's a chance he'll inspire those kids.

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Obviously after the fact it's plain to see he didn't, but going in there was no way to know what he had in store for us.

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I don't believe it was ever possible to make that kind of impression with the same generation that saw the originals. Just my opinion of course - and it's all congecture so I could very well be wrong. But in all earnest as much as I loved the originals I didn't go to watch the prequels thinking I would feel the same way I did the first time around....

But that's just my take on it. Perhaps I'm more cynical than I realise and fair play to you for holding onto that ideal Zeek. I don't mean to contradict by the way.

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Originally posted by lwaves:
If that's right then Transformers 2, Independance Day, Home Alone, Top Gun and several others are amogst the greatest quality movies ever made.

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Originally posted by Zeek:

We were handed the flaming pile of Episode I when the potential was there for something great. I haven't heard any over the top criticism IMO.

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Originally posted by two:

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Originally posted by lwaves:

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Originally posted by two:
My criteria for quality in movies is always... Money Made.

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So your saying that the more money a movie makes the greater the quality of that movie?
... There are a lot of other factors to consider besides money. ...

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I prefer a crassly materialistic description of "success" in Hollywood. Any other criteria stinks of philosophy, which is bad for business. I'm warning you about Hollywood's products: If you're looking for the meaning of your life, you best not find it in a TV show or while watching movies (even StarWars & Serenity). Go elsewhere, unless you're a critic like Roger Ebert. Maybe the meaning of life can be found in comic books? Excuse me, Graphic Novels.

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Where does that put Serenity by following your criteria?

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I already said something about Serenity and Joss Whedon - www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=42958#774121

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Originally posted by Zeek:

I'm not talking just impressions on people individually. He pretty much changed film making. He created techniques and technologies. He was an innovator.

We were handed the flaming pile of Episode I when the potential was there for something great. I haven't heard any over the top criticism IMO.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
What a very sad outlook. It's attitudes like this that ensure we get a steady stream of crap.

Films can be good AND make money. But as long as suckers keep shelling out for crap, there's no incentive for studios to try and make better product.

I feel bad for you.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:

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Originally posted by lwaves:
If that's right then Transformers 2, Independance Day, Home Alone, Top Gun and several others are amogst the greatest quality movies ever made.

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Are you suggesting Top Gun isn't among the greatest movies ever made?

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t's a Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am film that is full of cliches. The rebel with a haunted past, the goofball best mate, the unobtainable woman that he manages to get, the rivalry with those around him, the tragedy of losing someone and getting over it just in time to become the hero. It plays these well and the fact that Maverick doesn't get the trophy as well is a nice touch, but they are well trodden cliches and it doesn't try to do anything new or different with them.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oddly, I didn't think Avatar was that creative, story-telling wise, setting wise, theme-wise, or even creature wise.

But then I suppose if I want to argue that, I'd have to argue the same about Star Wars (obvious eastern life force themes, samurai, the farm boy hero, princess, villain, and scoundrel archetypes are all present and used in abundance).

And Firefly is historical fiction set in a dystopian sci-fi setting, and also draws upon many of the same archetypes.

So I don't think I want to argue that.

Mostly I'm just pissed off that James Cameron's Na'vi are the exact same concept culturally, functionally, and even appearance-wise for a race that *I* came up with two years ago, which is probably why I want to bust it down so much for unoriginality.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
Those were too flawed to bother with.

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James Cameron has achieved massive success and took the exact same genre to new film making levels. Showing that it is entirely possible in this day and age. Also showing success doesn't lobotomize creativity.

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Originally posted by two:
Nothing Hollywood makes is significant.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by two:
Nothing Hollywood makes is significant.

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In the grand scheme of human existance, no they aren't.

But that's a ridiculously myopic view. By that measure, no song, or book, or painting has ever been significant. And again - in the greater view, this would be true as well. But it's a sad and depressing way to view the world.

But in the context of discussing the art form itself, yes, there are many significant works.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by two:
Parents ought to go with their children to How To Train Your Dragon, which has teenager Hiccup thinking, inventing, and being original. Those characteristics need encouragement from movies.

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Dragon is much better for children than any StarWars-Avatar-Top Gun, which are only fine if your children are joining the U.S. Marines.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Sit at your desks and memorize these lines and these dates, class. If you want to blame something for a lack of creativity in current generations of adults, there's your culprit.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
James Cameron has achieved massive success and took the exact same genre to new film making levels. Showing that it is entirely possible in this day and age. Also showing success doesn't lobotomize creativity.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Zeek:
Those were too flawed to bother with.

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Really? That's the best you can do? Flawed how then?

Sounds like you just don't have an answer, and rather than address the ideas, you bail.

Try harder, because that response makes you look afraid to actually debate the issue.

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James Cameron has achieved massive success and took the exact same genre to new film making levels. Showing that it is entirely possible in this day and age. Also showing success doesn't lobotomize creativity.

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Well, if you're going to take it to that minute level, the technological advances Lucas utilized in the making of particularly Ep 1 & 2 are equivalent to what Cameron did with Avatar. So, by that criteria, he did raise the craft again with the prequels.

And I didn't say success ALWAYS lobotomizes creativity - but if you look, that is usually the case. Innovation in most art forms comes from the new guys, not the old guard.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...? Did you miss the part in this very thread where some people said they were inspired to become engineers by Star Wars?

A movie doesn't have to hammer home "be creative children!" aesops to inspire people to create. Aesops are really a very ineffective way to inspire people to change their ways or encourage a behaviour. "Oh that's cool!" actually works much better....

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Originally posted by Zeek:

You're right I don't want to waste my time debating with you. You've proven that you can't admit you're wrong in the past. I've seen no change in your behavior. So, what would be the point?

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For the record I didn't see any technical achievement with the episode I. I don't remember any outpouring of praise in that department either.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Actually, my single biggest problem with Phantom Menace was the crappy puppet that was Yoda. They fixed that in Attack & Revenge though.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Though that'd hardly be my biggest issue with the movie, it was certainly one that stood out.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

Though that'd hardly be my biggest issue with the movie, it was certainly one that stood out.

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I found the movies entertaining, after my initial laundry list of "Whoah, that's not right!"s.
But, they are what they are, and certainly heaps better than Matrix: Revulsions or Highlander 2, to name examples of TRUE losers!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Storymark:
My biggest issue with The Phantom Menace is the choices Lucas made in terms of where to start the story, and what/who to focus on. ... Well, and the pacing needed work. An epic space opera should not have (I believe it is) 9 different sit-down meetings.

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Originally posted by two:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
OMG, a must-see that was sent to me:

I can't believe it...


The laughing Chrisisall

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