CINEMA

American Sniper

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Saturday, June 6, 2015 15:32
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8005
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Monday, February 23, 2015 5:46 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I don't get what all the hub-bub is about this movie. At the end, as the credits rolled they showed how the folks in his home state of Texas honored this fallen hero gunned down by a marine, who may be schizophrenic. Right now that former marine is on trial for murder, or, at least, they are trying to determine if he's fit for trial.

I caught some of the controversy surrounding this movie, but it is just a bunch of hype. Some have said that it glorifies war. After seeing this film, I didn't get that feeling at all. Yes, Eastwood shot it as a typical war movie showing men in combat engaging the enemy (there was a plot within the movie about an enemy sniper that presented as motivation for our main character), and yes there were explosions and firefights, Humvees, tanks, etc. But, to me, this was a character study about an all-American gung-ho patriot who's personal struggles with the war was instilled in him by his staunch upbringing.

Chris Kyle's father laid the groundwork for this seemingly unflinching hero who did not know the meaning of the word - Quit. He was called the Legend by his brothers in arms (for which he seemed to struggle with as well). He had an unshakable belief in this country that drove him to distraction and that he kept bottled up inside. This "war" movie is an unvarnished, sober account of the life of an American Hero, as well as, a raw depiction of the mess that was Iraq following 9/11. The grunt's reaction and the relentless pursuit of a spinning-out-of-control never-ending war.

To me, this was as anti-war as the classic All Quiet on the Western Front (1930). Every red-blooded American should see this film, just to see what "our" boys go through in a hostile environment. The endless tours of duty, constant pressure to stay alive, and being surrounded by a culture and people who hate our very existence (according to the film). But also the cannibalistic approach taken by those who would wreak havoc on the defenseless and weak. This film is not for the squeamish, so don't bring little children (I was surprised to hear little children were in the theater, no doubt with their parents, watching this intense movie).

Was American Sniper a masterpiece? No. Was it a good solid piece of filmmaking? Yes. What I liked most about it was that Eastwood did not beat you over the head with any kind of message. He just pulled back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling the levers. He presented the story stark and bare bones, without editorializing or with over-the-top embellishments. What was of particular significance Bradley Cooper's portrayal of this brooding hulk of a man, who suffered greatly in defense of his country. That came clearly across as the story of Kyle's life unfolded. So No, this was not a movie glorifying war, but rather a study in what our servicemen and women struggle through on a psychological basis.

Like I said, raw and unvarnished. For me, it deserved the Best Picture nomination, among other noms. It was a markedly intense movie that left the audience emotionally drained by end credits roll. Every one in the theater left without a word, as if in shock of what they just finished seeing. I strongly feel that that was Eastwood's intent.


SGG

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Monday, February 23, 2015 10:45 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


To say that I "liked" American Sniper would be misleading. As a story, I think it did a very good job of depicting the emotional conflicts of serving in a war zone, as well as the alienation from reality that soldiers experience when they come home. However, I was not as impressed with it as a film. The pace was disjointed, and other than Cooper and Miller, the acting was flat and unconvincing.



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Monday, February 23, 2015 12:04 PM

JONGSSTRAW


The whole idea of showing the world how the U.S. military uses snipers makes me both angry and nauseated. Is this something to be proud of and boast about? It seems to me more like a dirty little secret, something that never gets discussed, much less made into a movie. I saw Chris Kyle interviewed many times on tv when his book came out and felt the whole thing was fucked up. If our military has to use snipers to keep the troops safe, then I'd say there's something very wrong with the operations planning and/or the commanders*.


* The same commanders who never figured out how to stop humvees and transports from getting blown up from IEDs in the road every damn day for eight years.

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Monday, February 23, 2015 12:20 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Snipers are utilized in city fighting due to the fact that the sniper can see threats that the soldiers on the ground cannot. I don't know for sure, but I would bet they were used in the same way during that type of campaign in WW2.



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Monday, February 23, 2015 8:09 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Has anyone seen Saving Private Ryan?


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole idea of showing the world how the U.S. military uses snipers makes me both angry and nauseated. Is this something to be proud of and boast about? It seems to me more like a dirty little secret, something that never gets discussed, much less made into a movie. I saw Chris Kyle interviewed many times on tv when his book came out and felt the whole thing was fucked up. If our military has to use snipers to keep the troops safe, then I'd say there's something very wrong with the operations planning and/or the commanders*.


* The same commanders who never figured out how to stop humvees and transports from getting blown up from IEDs in the road every damn day for eight years.


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Monday, February 23, 2015 8:10 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Snipers are utilized in city fighting due to the fact that the sniper can see threats that the soldiers on the ground cannot. I don't know for sure, but I would bet they were used in the same way during that type of campaign in WW2.




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Monday, February 23, 2015 8:15 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?


Yes, but it has been quite a few years.



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Monday, February 23, 2015 9:50 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?


Yes, but it has been quite a few years.


Circling around. Barry Pepper has worked for Clint as well.

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Monday, February 23, 2015 10:03 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I don't get what all the hub-bub is about this movie. At the end, as the credits rolled they showed how the folks in his home state of Texas honored this fallen hero gunned down by a marine, who may be schizophrenic. Right now that former marine is on trial for murder, or, at least, they are trying to determine if he's fit for trial.

I caught some of the controversy surrounding this movie, but it is just a bunch of hype. Some have said that it glorifies war. After seeing this film, I didn't get that feeling at all. Yes, Eastwood shot it as a typical war movie showing men in combat engaging the enemy (there was a plot within the movie about an enemy sniper that presented as motivation for our main character), and yes there were explosions and firefights, Humvees, tanks, etc. But, to me, this was a character study about an all-American gung-ho patriot who's personal struggles with the war was instilled in him by his staunch upbringing.

Chris Kyle's father laid the groundwork for this seemingly unflinching hero who did not know the meaning of the word - Quit. He was called the Legend by his brothers in arms (for which he seemed to struggle with as well). He had an unshakable belief in this country that drove him to distraction and that he kept bottled up inside. This "war" movie is an unvarnished, sober account of the life of an American Hero, as well as, a raw depiction of the mess that was Iraq following 9/11. The grunt's reaction and the relentless pursuit of a spinning-out-of-control never-ending war.

To me, this was as anti-war as the classic All Quiet on the Western Front (1930). Every red-blooded American should see this film, just to see what "our" boys go through in a hostile environment. The endless tours of duty, constant pressure to stay alive, and being surrounded by a culture and people who hate our very existence (according to the film). But also the cannibalistic approach taken by those who would wreak havoc on the defenseless and weak. This film is not for the squeamish, so don't bring little children (I was surprised to hear little children were in the theater, no doubt with their parents, watching this intense movie).

Was American Sniper a masterpiece? No. Was it a good solid piece of filmmaking? Yes. What I liked most about it was that Eastwood did not beat you over the head with any kind of message. He just pulled back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling the levers. He presented the story stark and bare bones, without editorializing or with over-the-top embellishments. What was of particular significance Bradley Cooper's portrayal of this brooding hulk of a man, who suffered greatly in defense of his country. That came clearly across as the story of Kyle's life unfolded. So No, this was not a movie glorifying war, but rather a study in what our servicemen and women struggle through on a psychological basis.

Like I said, raw and unvarnished. For me, it deserved the Best Picture nomination, among other noms. It was a markedly intense movie that left the audience emotionally drained by end credits roll. Every one in the theater left without a word, as if in shock of what they just finished seeing. I strongly feel that that was Eastwood's intent.
SGG


You need to forfeit your libtard card. That is the detailing of the glorification of war, and warriors.

You neglected to mention the deafening complete absence of sound during the entirety of final credit roll. As many others have, you have underestimated Eastwood's skill of craft. He surely intended the silence to encourage the reflection of the exiting audience.

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Monday, February 23, 2015 10:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
To say that I "liked" American Sniper would be misleading. As a story, I think it did a very good job of depicting the emotional conflicts of serving in a war zone, as well as the alienation from reality that soldiers experience when they come home. However, I was not as impressed with it as a film. The pace was disjointed, and other than Cooper and Miller, the acting was flat and unconvincing.


You don't think the "disjointed" was intentional? Covering several tours in theater, on/off immersion in the "real world" with impending PTSD? How else did you expect him to portray the non-linear nature of mental distortion and compromise?

BTW the first 4 times I went to see this, it was sold out for all the shows remaining in the night.

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Monday, February 23, 2015 10:48 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.



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Monday, February 23, 2015 11:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.


Those with PTSD are having a Pity Party for you.

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Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:27 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Well, as a reminder, there were snipers in WW2, Barry Pepper played one in the movie and there was the German sniper high in the bell tower. Hmmmm, that seems to follow.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
My response: Have you seen Saving Private Ryan?


Yes, but it has been quite a few years.




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Tuesday, February 24, 2015 3:41 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I don't get what all the hub-bub is about this movie. At the end, as the credits rolled they showed how the folks in his home state of Texas honored this fallen hero gunned down by a marine, who may be schizophrenic. Right now that former marine is on trial for murder, or, at least, they are trying to determine if he's fit for trial.

I caught some of the controversy surrounding this movie, but it is just a bunch of hype. Some have said that it glorifies war. After seeing this film, I didn't get that feeling at all. Yes, Eastwood shot it as a typical war movie showing men in combat engaging the enemy (there was a plot within the movie about an enemy sniper that presented as motivation for our main character), and yes there were explosions and firefights, Humvees, tanks, etc. But, to me, this was a character study about an all-American gung-ho patriot who's personal struggles with the war was instilled in him by his staunch upbringing.

Chris Kyle's father laid the groundwork for this seemingly unflinching hero who did not know the meaning of the word - Quit. He was called the Legend by his brothers in arms (for which he seemed to struggle with as well). He had an unshakable belief in this country that drove him to distraction and that he kept bottled up inside. This "war" movie is an unvarnished, sober account of the life of an American Hero, as well as, a raw depiction of the mess that was Iraq following 9/11. The grunt's reaction and the relentless pursuit of a spinning-out-of-control never-ending war.

To me, this was as anti-war as the classic All Quiet on the Western Front (1930). Every red-blooded American should see this film, just to see what "our" boys go through in a hostile environment. The endless tours of duty, constant pressure to stay alive, and being surrounded by a culture and people who hate our very existence (according to the film). But also the cannibalistic approach taken by those who would wreak havoc on the defenseless and weak. This film is not for the squeamish, so don't bring little children (I was surprised to hear little children were in the theater, no doubt with their parents, watching this intense movie).

Was American Sniper a masterpiece? No. Was it a good solid piece of filmmaking? Yes. What I liked most about it was that Eastwood did not beat you over the head with any kind of message. He just pulled back the curtain to reveal the wizard pulling the levers. He presented the story stark and bare bones, without editorializing or with over-the-top embellishments. What was of particular significance Bradley Cooper's portrayal of this brooding hulk of a man, who suffered greatly in defense of his country. That came clearly across as the story of Kyle's life unfolded. So No, this was not a movie glorifying war, but rather a study in what our servicemen and women struggle through on a psychological basis.

Like I said, raw and unvarnished. For me, it deserved the Best Picture nomination, among other noms. It was a markedly intense movie that left the audience emotionally drained by end credits roll. Every one in the theater left without a word, as if in shock of what they just finished seeing. I strongly feel that that was Eastwood's intent.
SGG


You need to forfeit your libtard card. That is the detailing of the glorification of war, and warriors.

So you see it as a poster for signing up able-bodied men and women to the newest fiasco in the middle east. What he showed was the utter brutality and dehumanizing affect it had on Kyle and his brothers in arms. The ripping apart of "our boys" and the toll it took on him mentally. But here's what you see - "we blowed them up real good." Well, I say let's nuke that whole region and sort out the bodies later. Then you'll see Iran and Putin straighten up real quick.

Try that one on for size.

You neglected to mention the deafening complete absence of sound during the entirety of final credit roll. As many others have, you have underestimated Eastwood's skill of craft. He surely intended the silence to encourage the reflection of the exiting audience.



Oh, shit. Do I have to surrender my movie decoder ring? Three more box tops and I would get a Radio Flyer!


SGG

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Tuesday, February 24, 2015 4:01 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


There were, for me, a couple of bad editing choices or, as you stated, abrupt changes. But I found that to be a minor distraction that did little to diminish the impact of Cooper's Oscar-worthy performance. I agree that there should have been more balance between the two "disjointed" worlds, or realities, to show the contrast in a more dynamic way.

Perhaps that is the reason why the film met with such criticism. My theory is that "we" are collectively tired of being bombarded by the same-o, same-o, war and violence and the constant threat to our shiny little world. But again, the main theme of the film was to show that even a mentally tough individual as Chris Kyle would crack under the constant pressure of fulfilling his tour of duty. Granted, his father's teachings and overall guidance could have been fleshed out more to present the audience with a more well-rounded peek into his psyche, but Eastwood chose a different path.

That's why, for me, there were great performances by both Cooper and Miller in a good solid movie, not a masterpiece.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.




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Tuesday, February 24, 2015 4:40 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I would love to sit down with Eastwood and have a conversation with him about the intent of this movie. But yes, it was disjointed, but I believe intentionally so. Now, mind you, I haven't read Kyle's book so I have no point of reference. But Eastwood did jump back and forth between stateside and war zone Chris, I too would have loved more development of his stateside persona and upbringing, so that's where the film falls short of greatness.

Flat acting from supporting characters: I didn't give it a second thought, but in the battle sequences, these guys are supposed to be your everyday average grunts - Eastwood is an old hand at getting the best from his actors - so I give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he directed his actors in that manner. He used the KISS method. By the way, Miller was pitch perfect in depicting her anguish and frustration over her husband's choices. That could have easily gone south.

And Cooper is quickly becoming a complete actor, and not just another pretty face.


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
To say that I "liked" American Sniper would be misleading. As a story, I think it did a very good job of depicting the emotional conflicts of serving in a war zone, as well as the alienation from reality that soldiers experience when they come home. However, I was not as impressed with it as a film. The pace was disjointed, and other than Cooper and Miller, the acting was flat and unconvincing.




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Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:49 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I would love to sit down with Eastwood and have a conversation with him about the intent of this movie.

I will be blunt: American Sniper is American Liar. The details here and there.
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/01/america
n_sniper_lawsuit_chris_kyle_told_lies_about_jesse_ventura.html

www.vox.com/2015/1/21/7641189/american-sniper-history

Saying the exact opposite of what I say is the truthful and sincere (Presidents don't deceive!) George W Bush, writing in the Memorial Edition of American Sniper. Believe him if he makes you feel good.
Quote:

Chris Kyle was and is a true American hero.

He was a hero because of the way he conducted himself in battle. Chris was that guy who always put the mission and his teammates above himself and his own safety. He did this out of instinct. Consequently he found himself acting, in the face of grave danger, more valorously than all but a few American soldiers in the great history of our nation. Chris’s legacy as a warrior lies not at the end of the rounds that he sent to the enemy, but in his uncanny courage to stand in front of those around him when the chips were down.

Chris Kyle is a hero because of the way he conducted himself after he completed his overseas battles. The hero that Chris was on the battlefield did not matter much after his role overseas was done. He, like many others in his generation, found it hard to leave that life—and especially his Teammates—behind. But, because of his uncanny instinct to protect others, and with the exceptional love and support from his wife, kids, parents, and brother, Chris was able to endure the challenge of transition.

It was only in the last year that Chris truly found his new calling: he put others above himself, standing with fellow veterans to help them deal with the struggles of returning home from war. He wanted to encourage kids with severe illness. He wanted to help local law enforcement officers make things better for their communities. All of these things make him a true hero, even today, as his legacy lives on.

Chris Kyle and his family sacrificed everything to make this country, the state of Texas, and their hometown a better place. The courage to face grave danger in order to help those around him was Chris’s greatest asset, and he turned it into a great calling. His family supported and endured that calling. Now, it is our turn. We must stand beside those around us to prove that the United States of America is truly the land of the free and the home of the brave. We must show the courage Chris showed in our communities, our own states, our own country.

I think George W Bush did an excellent job of mythologizing his fellow Texan, Chris Kyle. When read aloud it sounds exactly like a well-done speech at a funeral memorial. Hollywood and Clint Eastwood could not have done it better than Bush.

Just to ram my point in a little deeper, Clint Eastwood gave a speech at the Republican Presidential Convention, in case you forgot. I think Clint had a political agenda when he was making money making American Sniper, as Chris Kyle had a political agenda when he was making money writing American Sniper with his two co-writers, who were paid by the publisher, not by Chris Kyle, to do the actual writing. By the way, Bush did not write his eulogy for Chris Kyle, but his speechwriters, paid by US taxpayers from the office staff allowance for retired Presidents, wrote the eulogy.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:17 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Oh, I'm fully aware that Bush lied, and that Eastwood made an ass of himself at the Republican Convention. Hell, he may be the most ultra-conservative, right wing bullshit artist this side of the Pecos......\

I'm looking at the film.

None of these guys are my heroes. Besides Hollywood itself is one big fat lie, and I'm pretty sure half of Congress and the Senate lied, cheated and stole their way to where they are.

Chris Kyle or Jesse Ventura.......I've heard of Ventura's claims and I'm well aware of how people embellish their accomplishments - O'Reilly and McDonald come to mind. I read the article regarding Ventura's lawsuit and the lie. Well then, that does it. None of Eastwood's direction, Cooper or Miller's acting, etc. counts because it was based on a lie. What!? Hollywood lies? No! What's the world coming to? American Sniper has a little under $70 million to go to get to a half billion in Worldwide Box office. Does that make it right? No, not by humane standards. But Hollywood is a money-making machine, pure and simple.

The moral of Kyle’s story, then: It pays to lie.

Is making money considered part of a political agenda? Perhaps for the Koch Brothers. Anyway, if lying and cheating and stealing are to be considered in filmmaking (in regards to enjoyment and reviews)..........then I would say that Hollywood is guilty, perhaps 95-99% of the time. Is American Sniper a pack of lies? Does that diminish or disqualify the efforts by the actors, cast and crew? Food for thought.

The controversy I was speaking of was the criticism that Eastwood had directed a movie glorifying war, and here you come criticizing Eastwood and Kyle for lies told in both book and film form. Granted. I submit I don't know enough about it to comment further, nor do I particularly care. There are more important things to care about on my plate. What I fail to understand about your point - Bush and Eastwood are assholes and Kyle is a liar so therefor American Sniper is ? - is what it has to do with my little observation regarding the glorification of war criticism of the film?


SGG

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Wednesday, February 25, 2015 8:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Chris Kyle claimed he killed two carjackers at a gas station southwest of Dallas. Kyle claimed he shot dozens of looters in New Orleans from atop the Superdome. www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/03/in-the-crosshairs What was true? Chris Kyle was bodyguard for Sarah Palin. Kyle and Todd Palin were on Stars Earn Stripes, the "reality" show.

The unreality that shapes Texans like Chris Kyle takes many forms. In Texas is a mood in which the mind yields almost perforce to drift and in which the imagination holds unchecked sway, a mood in which nothing any more seems improbable save the puny inadequateness of fact, nothing incredible save the bareness of truth.

Another Texan repeatedly asserted that Saddam Hussein "really" had nuclear weapons and other programs about to be used to destroy America. That Texan lied right to your face. The war that followed was not a movie, but we all were forced to buy a ticket to pay for it. Now it "really" is a movie. Pay for it again, but this time the price is a thousand times cheaper. Buy a movie ticket to the second Iraq War.

(P.S. I watched a pirate copy of American Sniper. I did not pay Republican Clint Eastwood for his political party's promotional film that explained the "real" and "true" reasons for that war -- to protect America from another 9/11. That is the story Republicans want to sell you before the 2016 election. Keep America free and safe with Republican men like heroic Chris Kyle, Jeb Bush and Clint Eastwood. Remember: Freedom does not come for free. Brave Republicans must sacrifice themselves for YOU. Remember American Sniper when you vote for President.)


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Wednesday, February 25, 2015 8:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:
Even if that was Eastwood's intent I still say it didn't work for me. There wasn't enough time spent on Kyle's life back stateside before it jumped back to the war zone. The transitions were just too abrupt.


There were, for me, a couple of bad editing choices or, as you stated, abrupt changes. But I found that to be a minor distraction that did little to diminish the impact of Cooper's Oscar-worthy performance. I agree that there should have been more balance between the two "disjointed" worlds, or realities, to show the contrast in a more dynamic way.

Perhaps that is the reason why the film met with such criticism. My theory is that "we" are collectively tired of being bombarded by the same-o, same-o, war and violence and the constant threat to our shiny little world. But again, the main theme of the film was to show that even a mentally tough individual as Chris Kyle would crack under the constant pressure of fulfilling his tour of duty. Granted, his father's teachings and overall guidance could have been fleshed out more to present the audience with a more well-rounded peek into his psyche, but Eastwood chose a different path.

That's why, for me, there were great performances by both Cooper and Miller in a good solid movie, not a masterpiece.


SGG


Getting back to the "abrupt" - how else would you think Eastwood should have empathetically depicted the abruptness and discontinuity which PTSD sufferers experience and suffer from?
I was pleased that it wasn't just spelled out on small words, or preached upon, but was presented in "interactive" style to all who were watching and paying attention (and I include all in this discussion as having paid attention).

Considering the overwhelming abundance of excellent composers Clint has used and had at his disposal to create mournful sound, I felt the silence was moving.

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Wednesday, February 25, 2015 9:13 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Considering the overwhelming abundance of excellent composers Clint has used and had at his disposal to create mournful sound, I felt the silence was moving.

The movie won its only Oscar for Best Sound Editing. Directing 34 films over 44 years, Eastwood has honed his craft to its essentials: make it seem as if the story is telling itself. Skeptical viewers may pick at the particulars of American Sniper, but they’d have to admit that Eastwood, like Chris Kyle, is a superb shooter.

American Sniper is the #2 R-rated movie of all time, #1 is The Passion of the Chris.
www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic/mpaa.htm?page=R&p=.htm

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 1:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Tall Tales

I went back and did a little research (just barely enough to get the gist of the story behind the film, Kyle's whoppers/lies) and I came up with some thoughts. Yes, he told some whoppers (coming from Texas I guess that shouldn't surprise me) and he deserves whatever scorn and ridicule, for advancing his exploits, that he gets. Seems to me "embellishments" are all the rage now (Williams, O'Reilly and McDonald) trying to outdo the next guy's colorful "enhancements."

Upon reading about his "enhancements" I thought "yeah, right!" It's the old fish story. Each time it's told, it gets bigger until it's the size of Moby Dick. My theory is that it's part of his PTSD world. You don't do 4 tours and not be adversely affected, especially not in such a savage and dehumanizing war. Not making excuses for him, just making an observation. I personally know 2 such individuals who came back "changed" from war (Vietnam and Iraq). Killing can screw with your head. Bush, on the other hand, both he and Cheney, lost touch with reality in a much different way, but they have no excuse whatsoever.

Film and Storytelling

As I contemplated my response to your statement, I was reminded of another story on film that captured my imagination and fueled my love for film as a medium, a mode of storytelling. I was a young teen when I first saw Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) about a hillbilly that became famous back in WWI, when he singlehandedly captured a whole German Battalion with his service rifle. Tall tale indeed. Interesting how Hollywood packaged that movie.

Flash forward to today and we get the New Sgt. York, Chris Kyle, with Hollywood continuing to use their clever packaging tricks. Only thing, those of us with some brains can see through their chicanery. For me, I see LOTR, Sgt. York, The Dirty Dozen and Stalag 17 all over again. A story, a whopper, a fish story.........a flat out lie, maybe. But for approximately 2 hours I suspend my belief system, and allow myself to be transported to a separate reality. The world will be there when I get back.

Political Harshness

November 22, 1963 the day I grew up too fast. JFK was murdered and we lost the father of our country. I knew nothing of his real persona, but I was so young and the country was sold a bill of goods, still though he was "our" president. What did I know about Repubs and Dems? nothing, but my president was a democrat - so I felt that to honor him I was one as well. Bush is so far at the opposite end of who JFK was, that he pales in comparison. Somehow I knew that, once he was in office, we were going to war. We were sold a bill of goods.

Texas, that proud state, had to embellish, it's in their nature to exaggerate. Cheney, of course, had other things in mind. Along comes Chris Kyle, sees the towers go down and there is the "used car salesman" selling us a bill of goods. Many swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Many enlisted and were shipped off to fight and die because of a "used car salesman" and his trusty dog - Cheney. We are still "paying" for that bill of goods.


SGG

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:39 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Hey JSF,

I thought that Eastwood presented the story well, just a few minor tweaks IMHO, that would have given us a well-rounded and complete story. Some more scenes with his father and home life. The relationship with his brother was another aspect that I felt was skimmed over.

Again, it did not diminish from Cooper and Miller's performances, not in the least. The depiction of PTSD was more in Cooper's "far-off" look and general demeanor than anything Eastwood could have shown cinematically (his use of handheld cameras and lighting), he kept his shots simple, a few cutaways, but very little movement and, as you correctly noticed, very little music. As I stated, he used the KISS method. Eastwood relied heavily upon his two lead actors to tell the story.

EC described the supporting actors as being "flat" - Yes, I agree. But I believe this was intentional, with few exceptions. A soldier with PTSD will be there physically, but off kilter just a bit. Two scenes that show this in a very subtle way - 1. When Chris meets his brother in country on the tarmac, and 2. When Chris is home in front of the TV and it's not even on.
That image is burned in my memory........that's where I would assume they got the adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" - so true! What he did was show us, not tell us, what was going on in the lives of these two people.

Eastwood forced us to look at war, warts and all. He held it up to the light, showed us the ugly truth and said "don't turn away dammit. Look!"
No, I don't think he could have depicted the hurt and anguish of PTSD any better than through Bradley Cooper, a brilliant, spare, nuanced performance.
You're right, I was paying attention.


SGG

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 11:04 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Upon reading about his "enhancements" I thought "yeah, right!" It's the old fish story. Each time it's told, it gets bigger until it's the size of Moby Dick. My theory is that it's part of his PTSD world. You don't do 4 tours and not be adversely affected, especially not in such a savage and dehumanizing war. Not making excuses for him, just making an observation.

How much commonsense did Chris Kyle have when he gave a loaded gun to a crazy person?

From the yesterday's Christian Science Monitor, where “Routh” killed Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield.
Quote:

The ensuing excursion was meant to be a day of bonding, but the interplay between the men quickly soured. After declaring Routh “straight up nuts” in a text, Kyle texted Littlefield during the drive to the range to “Watch my 6,” military parlance for covering someone’s back. Later at the range, Routh first shot Littlefield several times in the back, and then aimed a fusillade at Kyle
www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0225/American-Sniper-trial-Why-US-j
uries-often-reject-the-insanity-plea-video


Anybody notice where Chris Kyle lost touch with reality? Routh is nuts but Kyle will carry out the mission anyway he can. And where did Kyle get the idea that shooting is good for Routh's P.T.S.D.? Did Kyle imagine gunfire and the smell of gunpowder are a cure? I know the answers because I live in Texas, where Texans aren't careful with facts, the truth or reality. Unrealistic attitudes and lying are advantageous in business, where the worst that can happen is a legal case, but not nearly so advantageous in war, where being unrealistic will drive you crazy, get you maimed & killed, and lose a war. All of which happened in Iraq.
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Eastwood forced us to look at war, warts and all. He held it up to the light, showed us the ugly truth and said "don't turn away dammit. Look!"

Clint Eastwood removed the link between losing touch with reality and losing a war. If he kept the linkage, the ugly truth, then the audience might have bad thoughts about Republican politicians. Eastwood's solution was to take the link out of the script and put more R-rated violence in. Eastwood would call it an artistic decision; I call it politics.

American Sniper turned war into a jumble of bullets and explosions and trips home, where everything is on a tactical level and there are only vague thoughts of a strategy to win a war. Chris Kyle is the super-shooter, a role that Clint Eastwood has played many times. The winning tactic in a typical Eastwood movie is to kill them all, one bullet at a time. With 160 kills, Chris Kyle was killing 'em all. Except killing them all does not win in a real war. But you won't see that in this Eastwood movie. (There are Texans who wanted to nuke all Iraqis, taking kill 'em all to the highest possible level, but that strategy is not as realistic as Texans think.)

To end where I began, was Chris Kyle being realistic when he handed a loaded gun to a person he thought was crazy? That ranks with offhand decisions such as Paul Bremer's Order Number 2, dissolving the entire former Iraqi army and putting 400,000 former Iraqi soldiers out of work, instantly creating a large pool of armed and disgruntled youths for the insurgency. Did Clint Eastwood include that in American Sniper? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bremer#Disbanding_the_Iraqi_Army

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:45 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Considering the overwhelming abundance of excellent composers Clint has used and had at his disposal to create mournful sound, I felt the silence was moving.

The movie won its only Oscar for Best Sound Editing. Directing 34 films over 44 years, Eastwood has honed his craft to its essentials: make it seem as if the story is telling itself. Skeptical viewers may pick at the particulars of American Sniper, but they’d have to admit that Eastwood, like Chris Kyle, is a superb shooter.


Another excellent post by second.
Quote:


American Sniper is the #2 R-rated movie of all time, #1 is The Passion of the Chris.
www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic/mpaa.htm?page=R&p=.htm


Now chrisisall is going to be jealous. Or the Passion of a different Chris?

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Tall Tales

I went back and did a little research (just barely enough to get the gist of the story behind the film, Kyle's whoppers/lies) and I came up with some thoughts. Yes, he told some whoppers (coming from Texas I guess that shouldn't surprise me) and he deserves whatever scorn and ridicule, for advancing his exploits, that he gets. Seems to me "embellishments" are all the rage now (Williams, O'Reilly and McDonald) trying to outdo the next guy's colorful "enhancements."

Upon reading about his "enhancements" I thought "yeah, right!" It's the old fish story. Each time it's told, it gets bigger until it's the size of Moby Dick. My theory is that it's part of his PTSD world. You don't do 4 tours and not be adversely affected, especially not in such a savage and dehumanizing war. Not making excuses for him, just making an observation. I personally know 2 such individuals who came back "changed" from war (Vietnam and Iraq). Killing can screw with your head. Bush, on the other hand, both he and Cheney, lost touch with reality in a much different way, but they have no excuse whatsoever.

Film and Storytelling

As I contemplated my response to your statement, I was reminded of another story on film that captured my imagination and fueled my love for film as a medium, a mode of storytelling. I was a young teen when I first saw Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) about a hillbilly that became famous back in WWI, when he singlehandedly captured a whole German Battalion with his service rifle. Tall tale indeed. Interesting how Hollywood packaged that movie.

Flash forward to today and we get the New Sgt. York, Chris Kyle, with Hollywood continuing to use their clever packaging tricks. Only thing, those of us with some brains can see through their chicanery. For me, I see LOTR, Sgt. York, The Dirty Dozen and Stalag 17 all over again. A story, a whopper, a fish story.........a flat out lie, maybe. But for approximately 2 hours I suspend my belief system, and allow myself to be transported to a separate reality. The world will be there when I get back.

Political Harshness

November 22, 1963 the day I grew up too fast. JFK was murdered and we lost the father of our country. I knew nothing of his real persona, but I was so young and the country was sold a bill of goods, still though he was "our" president. What did I know about Repubs and Dems? nothing, but my president was a democrat - so I felt that to honor him I was one as well. Bush is so far at the opposite end of who JFK was, that he pales in comparison. Somehow I knew that, once he was in office, we were going to war. We were sold a bill of goods.

Texas, that proud state, had to embellish, it's in their nature to exaggerate. Cheney, of course, had other things in mind. Along comes Chris Kyle, sees the towers go down and there is the "used car salesman" selling us a bill of goods. Many swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Many enlisted and were shipped off to fight and die because of a "used car salesman" and his trusty dog - Cheney. We are still "paying" for that bill of goods.


SGG


You may be satisfied with your assessment. But the combat participants knew about Chris Kyle at the time, while in theater. kyle didn't manufacture that.

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Hey JSF,

I thought that Eastwood presented the story well, just a few minor tweaks IMHO, that would have given us a well-rounded and complete story. Some more scenes with his father and home life. The relationship with his brother was another aspect that I felt was skimmed over.

Again, it did not diminish from Cooper and Miller's performances, not in the least. The depiction of PTSD was more in Cooper's "far-off" look and general demeanor than anything Eastwood could have shown cinematically (his use of handheld cameras and lighting), he kept his shots simple, a few cutaways, but very little movement and, as you correctly noticed, very little music. As I stated, he used the KISS method. Eastwood relied heavily upon his two lead actors to tell the story.

EC described the supporting actors as being "flat" - Yes, I agree. But I believe this was intentional, with few exceptions. A soldier with PTSD will be there physically, but off kilter just a bit. Two scenes that show this in a very subtle way - 1. When Chris meets his brother in country on the tarmac, and 2. When Chris is home in front of the TV and it's not even on.
That image is burned in my memory........that's where I would assume they got the adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" - so true! What he did was show us, not tell us, what was going on in the lives of these two people.

Eastwood forced us to look at war, warts and all. He held it up to the light, showed us the ugly truth and said "don't turn away dammit. Look!"
No, I don't think he could have depicted the hurt and anguish of PTSD any better than through Bradley Cooper, a brilliant, spare, nuanced performance.
You're right, I was paying attention.


SGG


Did you recognize the nursery as another example, Chris' surrealism peeling away in civilian environs? I did like the Auto shop air wrench, which of course sounds like an automatic weapon with compressed air recoil and reload features. There were numerous other more subtle times which I cannot recall in totality.

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Thursday, February 26, 2015 9:10 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I did like the Auto shop air wrench, which of course sounds like an automatic weapon with compressed air recoil and reload features. There were numerous other more subtle times which I cannot recall in totality.

“Have you done some things over there you wished you hadn't?” asked the psychologist at two hours into the movie.

Chris Kyle thoughtfully replied, “I'm willing to meet my Creator and answer for every shot I took.” How arrogant! When I meditate on my kills, I have some doubts. Maybe not every kill was absolutely necessary. Except for this one guy who I think the Buddha would have approved me killing sooner and maybe torturing him a little before he died. That guy was ass.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, February 27, 2015 3:29 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!

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Friday, February 27, 2015 3:32 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yes, JSF, caught that and others throughout............


SGG

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Friday, February 27, 2015 4:15 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


People seem to forget that, although Eastwood may be a republican douchebag asshole, who talks to empty chairs at conventions, he is a master craftsman in his field.....which happens to be filmmaking.

This may not have been one of his ultimate masterful movies (such as Million Dollar Baby) but it did have his touch. Subtle but poignant, simple yet complex, the deft touch of an impressionistic painter where you could barely see the brushstrokes.

Forget, for a moment, the brutal and loud battle scenes. That's the background. Watch Cooper's performance and you could almost see Eastwood telling him, "less is more" "go inward." With each passing tour of duty Kyle went deeper and even more introverted. I'm glad that I didn't know more about Kyle than I already did, for then I would be questioning Cooper's every move, Eastwood's intent (oh wait, I already did).

It was pulling all the elements together to tell a story. What I saw was a story about how a man slowly lost his soul, and just as slowly fought against it. Not everything was there on the screen to be explained away, but it was suggested in those very scenes that you describe. The nursery scene, the auto shop scene, the television scene. And each of us - you, me, Second - took something unique to our experience from it.


SGG

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Friday, February 27, 2015 10:18 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


The only facts most people remember about wars are the movies. World War II has Bridge On the River Kwai or Saving Private Ryan or Schindler's List or Raiders of the Lost Ark. Nazis are the best villains, ever! The Korean War has got MASH. Vietnam War? John Wayne's The Green Berets or The Deer Hunter or Apocalypse Now. Take your choice. Then there is the Iraq War with The Hurt Locker www.metacritic.com/movie/the-hurt-locker

Clint Eastwood has done his version of an Iraq War movie and used all his art to make a point. And he did it with great success. But Clint's point is off-point. I know why. Clint needs to redirect your attention to the suffering troops. Look, look, look at lost legs and arms. See Bradley Cooper do mental anguish, Texas style, which is far more subtle and nuanced than NY/NJ style. New Jersey gets loud when it suffers. Clint Eastwood decided it is his job to artistically direct your attention so you can remember the Iraq War to the best advantage of an unnamed political party.

I will leave with another fact that will never make it into a Clint Eastwood movie. Clint would say the fact is not in his movie because of “artistic decisions” which perfectly protects himself from being accused of extremist nutcase political bias in favor of an unnamed political party.

Remember roadside bombs that plagued the Army in Iraq? Thank the Army for those explosions. The Army made excuses at the time for not securing the explosives before the terrorists trucked the bombs away. All bullshit from the Generals, all the time. Every Texan I have ever known is unaware of this. But you no longer are. Thank me. No thanks to old fart Clint Eastwood.
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.explosives/
www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/international/middleeast/25bomb.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qa%27qaa_high_explosives_controversy

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, February 27, 2015 4:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!


You are supposed to only pay attention to the politics which are not radical leftwing extremist. All of the extreme leftwing libtard radical politics evident in the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama, acting are to be ignored or reveled in.

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Friday, February 27, 2015 4:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
People seem to forget that, although Eastwood may be a republican douchebag asshole, who talks to empty chairs at conventions, he is a master craftsman in his field.....which happens to be filmmaking.

This may not have been one of his ultimate masterful movies (such as Million Dollar Baby) but it did have his touch. Subtle but poignant, simple yet complex, the deft touch of an impressionistic painter where you could barely see the brushstrokes.

Forget, for a moment, the brutal and loud battle scenes. That's the background. Watch Cooper's performance and you could almost see Eastwood telling him, "less is more" "go inward." With each passing tour of duty Kyle went deeper and even more introverted. I'm glad that I didn't know more about Kyle than I already did, for then I would be questioning Cooper's every move, Eastwood's intent (oh wait, I already did).

It was pulling all the elements together to tell a story. What I saw was a story about how a man slowly lost his soul, and just as slowly fought against it. Not everything was there on the screen to be explained away, but it was suggested in those very scenes that you describe. The nursery scene, the auto shop scene, the television scene. And each of us - you, me, Second - took something unique to our experience from it.


SGG


I wondered at the time, and still do, how many missed the quip in Cooper's final wrap-up scene, where he said that she was what made the effort to come back to the living worth it.

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Friday, February 27, 2015 5:13 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Take your choice.


OK.
Quote:


The only facts most people remember about wars are the movies.


WWII was preceded by the War to End All Wars, aka The World War or World War I: Gallipoli, Red Baron. Most of the films I wanted to list here are not found on the interweb search I just did.
Quote:


World War II has Bridge On the River Kwai


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Saving Private Ryan


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Schindler's List


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Raiders of the Lost Ark.


In Yurp...
Quote:


Nazis are the best villains, ever!


Good thing the Italians or Japanese were not involved in the war, or the Allied Powers could have lost a few lives in combat. Also forgot Catch-22.

Others include Tora Tora Tora, Flags of Our Fathers, Baa Baa Blacksheep (I'm partial as a former Blacksheep), Midway, From Here To Eternity.
Quote:


The Korean War has got MASH.


severly diluted by the horrible TV show which followed.
Quote:


Vietnam War? John Wayne's The Green Berets or The Deer Hunter or Apocalypse Now.


Platoon.
Quote:


Take your choice. Then there is the Iraq War


American Sniper.

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Saturday, February 28, 2015 2:17 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


What!? you lost me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The only facts most people remember about wars are the movies.

1. For most people, not in the armed forces, this is how we experience war, through movies.

Clint Eastwood has done his version of an Iraq War movie and used all his art to make a point. And he did it with great success. But Clint's point is off-point.

2. How can Eastwood be both successful and off-point? Apparently, I missed something. I don't see how this film was ever political. Could you point out just how he made this into Republican propaganda? I'm approaching this from a film standpoint, since I have no experience as a soldier.

Clint would say the fact is not in his movie because of “artistic decisions"

3. If we were talking about Heartbreak Ridge, then yes, definitely a right leaning propaganda movie. Again, what specifically about his choices made this a Republican film (aside from the obvious, Bush declaring war on Iraq).

Remember roadside bombs that plagued the Army in Iraq?

4. Yes, I remember the roadside bombs. I don't recall seeing one in this movie.

I saw this movie as kind of anti-war. I didn't see it as Republican brainwash theater. Remember, I'm a democrat.


SGG


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Saturday, February 28, 2015 2:33 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Oooooooo, so close!

So you're calling old stone face Eastwood a, what was it, radical leftwing extremist.

And what is this clap-trap? the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama,"acting are to be ignored or reveled in."

You lost me there with that one.


SGG

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Saturday, February 28, 2015 8:01 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

I saw this movie as kind of anti-war. I didn't see it as Republican brainwash theater. Remember, I'm a democrat.

It is not an anti-war movie so much as it is a Killing-is-harsh-on-his-soul-but-Chris-Kyle-will-make-the-sacrifice-to-keep-America-safe-from-Terrorists movie. The Killing-is-harsh-on-his-soul is one of those lightweight moral insights that Hollywood has used a thousand times. See Eastwood's Unforgiven (1992). If the movie was a heavyweight, it would have looked at, for at least two seconds, Is-Kyle-keeping-America-safe-from-Terrorists? That will never be in an Eastwood movie, especially when he is a shill for the Republican party. There is not enough ammo in the universe for Kyle and his rifle to keep America safe when the Whitehouse and the Pentagon are making stupid decisions such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bremer#Disbanding_the_Iraqi_Army and http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.explosives/

I saw this in the newspaper: How We Learned to Kill

In Marine officer training we were taught to be decisive. Even a bad decision, I was told, is better than no decision at all. But the combination of imperfect judgment, the confidence of authority and absolute decisiveness does not produce measured outcomes.

For a while after I ordered the Marine to take that first shot, everything we did seemed acceptable. It revealed that killing could be banal. Each day would bring a new threat that needed to be eliminated. Bombs would drop, Marines would fire and artillery would blanket hills with explosions. I had a rough estimate of how many people we killed, but I stopped counting after a while.

On most occasions, when ordnance would destroy the enemy or a sniper would kill a Taliban fighter, we would engage in the professional congratulations of a job well done like businessmen after a successful client meeting. Nothing of the sort happened after killing a civilian. And in this absence of group absolution, I saw for the first time how critical it actually was for my soul and my sanity.

Nobody ever talked about the accidental killing. There was paperwork, a brief investigation and silence. You can’t tell someone who has killed an innocent person that he did the right thing even if he followed all the proper procedures before shooting.

When I returned home this group absolution was supposed to take the form of a welcoming society, unlike the one Vietnam veterans returned to. But the only affirmation of my actions came through the ubiquitous “Thank you for your service.” Beyond that, nobody wanted to, or wants to, talk about what occurred overseas.
-- www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/opinion/sunday/how-we-learned-to-kill.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, February 28, 2015 4:17 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Take your choice.


OK.
Quote:


The only facts most people remember about wars are the movies.


WWII was preceded by the War to End All Wars, aka The World War or World War I: Gallipoli, Red Baron. Most of the films I wanted to list here are not found on the interweb search I just did.
Quote:


World War II has Bridge On the River Kwai


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Saving Private Ryan


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Schindler's List


In Yurp...
Quote:


or Raiders of the Lost Ark.


In Yurp...
Quote:


Nazis are the best villains, ever!


Good thing the Italians or Japanese were not involved in the war, or the Allied Powers could have lost a few lives in combat. Also forgot Catch-22.

Others include Tora Tora Tora, Flags of Our Fathers, Baa Baa Blacksheep (I'm partial as a former Blacksheep), Midway, From Here To Eternity.


As a Marine Officer, I wonder why you didn't realize there was a War in the Pacific, the Island-hopping Campaign. Never heard of Capt Earl Ellis?

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Saturday, February 28, 2015 4:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Oooooooo, so close!

So you're calling old stone face Eastwood a, what was it, radical leftwing extremist.

And what is this clap-trap? the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama,"acting are to be ignored or reveled in."

You lost me there with that one.


SGG


Perhaps you got confused when you inserted quote marks incorrectly, or in the wrong location.
Or you are not serious.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!


You are supposed to only pay attention to the politics which are not radical leftwing extremist. All of the extreme leftwing libtard radical politics evident in the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama, acting are to be ignored or reveled in.


Maybe I was not clear.
John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are NOT representative of the radical leftwing extremist, which is the norm in Hollywood. These should be the targets of your attention, belittling and nitpicking them and their work.

On the other hand, the Hollywood standard of extreme leftwing libtard radical politics which Hollywood insists is "mainstream" or "centrist" shall be heretofore celebrated, reveled in, or ignored during critiques or critical thinking. This rule applies to entire films, or the drama or acting within.

Got it?

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Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:04 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Perhaps you got confused when you inserted quote marks incorrectly, or in the wrong location.
Or you are not serious.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. For one thing, those were your quote marks, I merely copied them because I didn't understand your comment.
2. I am serious
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, regarding my critiques or observations. I try not to belittle, although I do nitpick, but I base it on the film itself and not whether it's left or right wing (according to your comments) propaganda. Film technique and storytelling ability, quality of cinematography, those sorts of things, that's what I look at......oh and acting performance.

Like I said, I may not like or agree with John Wayne or Clint Eastwood's politics, but I do like their movies. Their personal preferences in the political arena doesn't affect me in the least.

As for your statement regarding the Lefty leaning Hollywood industry, now I get it.
But, I have to ask, why do you think they allow Eastwood to make his films? Aren't they all commie pinko weirdos? If I was running Hollywood, I wouldn't let those right wing gestapo-loving neocons anywhere near Tinsel Town.


SGG

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Sunday, March 1, 2015 2:02 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Perhaps you got confused when you inserted quote marks incorrectly, or in the wrong location.
Or you are not serious.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. For one thing, those were your quote marks, I merely copied them because I didn't understand your comment.


You inserted a begin quote after "drama," and before "acting" and an end quote after "in."
Quote:


2. I am serious
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, regarding my critiques or observations. I try not to belittle, although I do nitpick, but I base it on the film itself and not whether it's left or right wing (according to your comments) propaganda. Film technique and storytelling ability, quality of cinematography, those sorts of things, that's what I look at......oh and acting performance.

Like I said, I may not like or agree with John Wayne or Clint Eastwood's politics, but I do like their movies. Their personal preferences in the political arena doesn't affect me in the least.


All of that requires you to forfeit your libtard card. Your first priority is to identify whether anybody involved in the project is conservative, and then determine whether to use fairness and balance to your critique - always biased against conservatives, always balance tipped towards libtards.
Quote:


As for your statement regarding the Lefty leaning Hollywood industry, now I get it.
But, I have to ask, why do you think they allow Eastwood to make his films?


Eastwood makes them money, so they can spend the money on garbage libtard fliks. Eastwood learned early on how to turn around a film quickly, reducing the fiscal exposure to minimums. Eastwood's time from final wrap to film-in-the-can and ready for distribution is the shortest in the industry - he sets the standard, and this makes the bankers and the studio heads happy. The unfortunate circumstances of "Waterworld" would never have happened under his watch.
Quote:


Aren't they all commie pinko weirdos? If I was running Hollywood, I wouldn't let those right wing gestapo-loving neocons anywhere near Tinsel Town.


SGG


Praise Allah SGG is not running Hoolywood.

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Monday, March 2, 2015 1:49 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


This is getting ridiculous...............

You inserted a begin quote after "drama," and before "acting" and an end quote after "in."

1. Again - THOSE WERE YOUR QUOTES - NOT MINE!!!!!

All of that requires you to forfeit your libtard card. Your first priority is to identify whether anybody involved in the project is conservative, and then determine whether to use fairness and balance to your critique - always biased against conservatives, always balance tipped towards libtards.

2. My first priority is to live my life as a free man. I am a democrat, and proud of it, and I believe in the Constitution. I love my country and freedom (even for the Don't Tread On Me Society). Having said that, I do as I please, and I happen to love movies (not so much the industry). I enjoy having intelligent discussions about them. Politics don't come into play here, just the art of the storytelling.

FUCK Politics! Unless the movie is about politics, FUCK politics!

There is that clear enough.

Eastwood makes them money, so they can spend the money on garbage libtard fliks. Eastwood learned early on how to turn around a film quickly, reducing the fiscal exposure to minimums. Eastwood's time from final wrap to film-in-the-can and ready for distribution is the shortest in the industry - he sets the standard, and this makes the bankers and the studio heads happy. The unfortunate circumstances of "Waterworld" would never have happened under his watch.

3. The fact that Hollywood is made up of greedy men who's only interest is the bottom line, OMFG what is this world coming to. I think someone may have noticed long before you uttered the infamous words above. Liberal or Right Wing doesn't matter, as long as it makes cashy money. But really, you've discovered nothing new. Of course you have your conservative T Party bias, and that's nothing new either.

Praise Allah SGG is not running Hoolywood.

4. You know, you're really funny. If I ran Hollywood, I would drive you crazy with my Marxist, Leftist, Stalinist, Bolshevik, Communist films such as: Forrest Gump, Oscar, Some Like It Hot, Waterworld, The Postman, The Godfather, The Matrix, Serenity, A Nightmare Before Christmas, Beetlejuice, It Happened One Night, Room Service, It's A Wonderful Life, Holiday Inn, An American in Paris, Citizen Kane and Arsenic & Old Lace...........too name a few.

Ahhhh, movies.


SGG

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Monday, March 2, 2015 2:37 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I'm going to dig a little deeper myself:

Let me say this, you're right about it being about the affect killing has on a soldier, and that Hollywood has used this theme almost since the beginning of time. I mentioned Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) as a prime example. He was a born again Christian who objected to killing because it was "agin the good book" - He struggled with the notion of having to kill to serve his country and protect his fellow soldiers.

It was dealt with rather simplistically, but the solution was it was okay to kill because you were defending those that were weaker. Pretty much the same story as in American Sniper. Now is that because Hollywood decided that's the best way to deal with the issue, or are they documenting the horrors of war? I don't know enough to answer that.

But here's the thing. You see Eastwood manipulating the audience to see a republican response to war, a gung-ho shoot-em-up extolling the virtues of killing terrorists. While I see a movie that seems to be questioning the logic behind exposing a soldier to the uncanny pressure of several tours of duty, and the effect it has on his psyche. But too, the affect it has on this one soldier as representative of the majority.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no wrong answer for either of us. Unforgiven is a revisionist tale of how the West probably really was. Killing a man, and deciding if he deserves it or not, is never to be taken lightly or for granted. But it makes you think, even for a second, about the right and wrong of it, the savageness of it. Brilliant movie.


SGG

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Monday, March 2, 2015 9:11 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

As far as I'm concerned, there is no wrong answer for either of us.

Yes there is.

The Iraq War cost trillions. They did the best they could and nobody's perfect and freedom isn't free (am I forgetting any clichés about expensive failure?), but another poorly executed war, even more expensive, can happen once Clint's political party (which shall remain unnamed) takes the American Presidency in less than two years. Remember when Iran was the preferred target of the unnamed party? “Anyone can go to Baghdad, real men go to Tehran.” Iran is a big, fat target for the next war for freedom. http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,671919,00.html

So that the process can be repeated again, American Sniper is an amnesia inducing movie about the last time a poorly thought out war was fought by America. Who needs a movie reminding voters of dumb-ass mistakes before beginning political maneuvering for the next trillion dollar war to keep America safe and free? Certainly Clint Eastwood does not see that as part of his “artistic” process. Clint is a simple patriot making a humble living filming an antiwar statement about families left behind, he would tell you. http://variety.com/2015/film/news/clint-eastwood-talks-american-sniper
s-antiwar-statement-bradley-coopers-weight-loss-1201414073
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, March 2, 2015 6:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Here is my original post of 27 Feb, unedited, unchanged, unaltered, unadulterated since it's post. Note the quote marks I mentioned are still not there, nor have they ever been there.

Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Ok, if I go into a theater knowing I hate a particular director for whatever the reason, then.....................my question is: Why see the movie if you know, going in, that all you will see is a pack of lies?

You bring a very heavy piece of luggage my friend? Do you do this with all the movies you watch?

And, of course, Eastwood is going into it with a particular point of view. If you know this going in, well.....................

I found out about John Wayne's politics a few years back, but yet I still watch his films and enjoy them. Art and politics can be a powerful combination, but they can also drive ya' crazy.


Dr. Strangelove!!!


You are supposed to only pay attention to the politics which are not radical leftwing extremist. All of the extreme leftwing libtard radical politics evident in the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama, acting are to be ignored or reveled in.




And here is your post from 9 hours and 44 minutes later, which you seemed to quote me, but I immediately noticed that you added the extra quote marks. I normally don't care that much, it happens a lot here, but this seems to have confused you.
Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Oooooooo, so close!

So you're calling old stone face Eastwood a, what was it, radical leftwing extremist.

And what is this clap-trap? the "mainstream" or "centrist" film, drama,"acting are to be ignored or reveled in."

You lost me there with that one.


SGG




Regarding the "choice" of War films, I failed to recall "Fury" when I made that post - it was on the fringe of my recall, but I couldn't grasp it at the time. More poignant than I expected.

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Monday, March 2, 2015 6:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
I'm going to dig a little deeper myself:


While I see a movie that seems to be questioning the logic behind exposing a soldier to the uncanny pressure of several tours of duty, and the effect it has on his psyche. But too, the affect it has on this one soldier as representative of the majority.


Perhaps you would consider this PoV:
1. The effect on the psyche applies to all (or almost all) who are exposed, varying in severity.
2. Kyle (in film) seems aware of this, his wife reminds him regularly, and actor Bradley Cooper also knew the real Kyle, perhaps when the PTSD was still prevalent.
3. Kyle, knowing this (presumably), aware that others would also suffer similar fate, but feeling that he, the superior sniper/SEAL/durable male, would take it upon himself to suffer this wound, this Disorder, this pressure, to alleviate his fellow combat servicemember of this tragedy, because he thought that he could hack it better that the others.

The sacrifice, sensitivity, valor and courage are not all wrought at the tip of the trigger finger.

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Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:18 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Right on point.


SGG

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Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:19 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


Yep.


SGG

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Tuesday, March 3, 2015 2:47 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


I have lost total focus on the discussion at hand. I am talking about a film, regardless of who directed it, that addresses the affect of war on a human being who continually returns because of a need he has to protect and serve.

Where does the price tag on the Iraq War, and I am fully aware that it cost trillions, come into play as it relates to the main theme of the movie? Nothing in that film touches upon that fact. Yes, it did cost trillions; and yes it was poorly executed; and yes the Republicans are to blame; but the movie was about a man, a soldier. It was not about presidents, or generals or politics. It was about the grunts, the average Joe, the men and women in the field. Not Senators or Congressmen lying from both sides of their mouth. Everything that you say is a part of history, in the books, so to speak, and does have a place in the grand conversation, although everyone avoids it like the plaque.

But the film, clichés and all, spoke to a specific dialogue within that conversation that we, as a nation, must come to grips with; and that's the insidious specter of PTSD. Politics and artistic expression aside, this is no joke. Does it change any of those other things you mention?.....NO.
But amnesia inducing? I take it you didn't like the film. Fine. By the way, I think you're dead wrong about 2016. No way a Republican will be sitting in the White House come Jan 2017. Poorly thought out war; since when did we ever have a greatly planned one?


SGG

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