Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There's really no point in having any debate at this juncture.

All we need to do is sit back and watch the Leftists apparently go insane like they have the last week or so.

I don't know what's got you all riled up, all of the sudden, but you're practically ensuring that Trump is going to be re-elected.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There's really no point in having any debate at this juncture.

All we need to do is sit back and watch the Leftists apparently go insane like they have the last week or so.

I don't know what's got you all riled up, all of the sudden, but you're practically ensuring that Trump is going to be re-elected.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

RF has gone full-on troll, and a lot of the so-called left has gone whack-a-doodle. Yanno, I hated GWB with a passion. I loathed the man and his entire coterie of vicious war-mongering feed-the-wealthy neocons who thought nothing of killing a million Middle-Easterners as well as getting thousands of our soldiers killed and so many more maimed, based on a series of lies and bullshit.

But that didn't keep me from seeing Bill Clinton's and Barrack Obama's MANY and glaring faults, which ran - unsurprisingly!- along the very same lines as GWB.

It's a POLICY problem, not a personality one. It doesn't matter whether the President is a smooth talker like Bill and Barrack, or an apparent stumble-bum like GWB: Foreign "interventions" and provocations, the wealth gap and job loss ... have only gotten worse and worse since Clinton. Bush and Obama were no exceptions.

Trump, for all his many faults, is doing something VERY different. I disagree 120% with his "trickle-down" vision, but I hope he makes progress in withdrawing from our far-too-many military engagements (on behalf of the wealthy and powerful), re-balancing our trade imbalances and restoring our sovereign rights.

*****

SHINY, I'll do my best to dispense with the egregious insults if you do.

My point continues to be: As the nation with the overwhelmingly largest military force in the world (and the budget deficit to prove it) we must FIRST, DO NO HARM. Now, bombing, shooting, shelling, and torturing people - or paying, training and equipping others to do it for you ... CLEARLY does harm, so before we start down that road we have to make sure that we aren't doing more harm than good. The only way I know to ensure THAT is to make sure that you only use violence to directly defend yourself or others against violence. Otherwise you will probably wind up killing people because of "communism" or "freedom" or some other rationalization, and wind up doing far more harm than good.

One of the other problems using violence to achieve political ends is that once that process starts, only the most violent will get their way. In a nation with elections, there is absolutely no purpose to initiating or stoking violence, and any group that does that should be immediately suspect. That includes us.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---

Quote:

---

I would just ignore RF or talk about him as though he isn't actually here from now

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

My point continues to be: As the nation with the overwhelmingly largest military force in the world (and the budget deficit to prove it) we must FIRST, DO NO HARM. Now, bombing, shooting, shelling, and torturing people - or paying, training and equipping others to do it for you ... CLEARLY does harm, so before we start down that road we have to make sure that we aren't doing more harm than good. The only way I know to ensure THAT is to make sure that you only use violence to directly defend yourself or others against violence. Otherwise you will probably wind up killing people because of "communism" or "freedom" or some other rationalization, and wind up doing far more harm than good.

---

Quote:

---

To stop endless war, raise taxes. Until the public has to pay extra for war, it won’t demand peace. But the GOP is opposed to raising taxes. The Democrats are not.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by reaverfan:
What's the difference between a garbanzo bean and a Russian chickpea?

Trump hasn't had a garbanzo bean all over his bed.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Time magazine cover showing President Trump looking down on a crying 2-year-old Honduran girl.

Of course now we know that the “crying girl” story was totally fake news. That girl was never separated from her mother, and they had paid a smuggler six thousand dollars to get them across the border.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JJ:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Time magazine cover showing President Trump looking down on a crying 2-year-old Honduran girl.

Of course now we know that the “crying girl” story was totally fake news. That girl was never separated from her mother, and they had paid a smuggler six thousand dollars to get them across the border.

---

This Obama-era pilot program kept asylum-seeking migrant families together. Trump canceled it.

The Family Case Management Program, launched as a pilot in early 2016, aimed to keep asylum seeking kin together, out of detention, and complying with immigration laws. It was praised by immigration advocates for both its high rate of compliance and its ability to help migrants thrive in a new country — right up until the Trump administration shuttered it almost exactly a year ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/obama-era-
pilot-program-kept-asylum-seeking-migrant-families-together-n885896

T

---

Quote:

---

There you go, minimizing the horror of our "interventions", which are bloody and painful to the people that we "help".

During the Vietnam War, I saw a movie called "Hearts and Minds" and it made OUR VICTIMS very real to me, not just some colorless abstraction of "body counts" or tallies of "civilians killed", but people who lived, and then suffered and died at our hands. Mothers crying over the bodies of their babies, children crying over the coffins of their fathers.

It took a documentary movie, with none of the gore removed, to wake me up and make me understand what, exactly, we were doing to the people that we were "helping". Well, I can't make you sit down and watch Hearts and Minds; all I can do is post a few pictures and a few descriptions and hope that, somehow, reality will sink in and horror will follow.

What I find so terrible is that all of you people who CLAIM to be such nice, "caring" people can get so very, very tweaked about a child crying or about some concept like "human rights" can somehow ignore the literal mountains of bodies that we leave in our wake. Well, when I hear a child crying I just want to scoop them up and give them a hug. But let's be clear: This child is not dead, and neither are his or her parents. The problem is fixable, and should be fixed. Maybe we should start by NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN FOREIGN LANDS AND MAKING THEIR NATIONS HELLHOLES. Do you think THAT might be a good start? Or is that just too complicated for you?

Where is your sense of proportion, or reality? Don't you have any sorrow, or pity, or shame?

Apparently not! YOUR only reaction to the pictures of our victims is to attack me, personally, so you can once again deny reality, just as GSTRING's reaction is to attack me personally so that he can continue to minimize the awfulness. Why would you do that? Why would HE do that? Why would ANYone do that?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

lol

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by reaverfan:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JJ:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Time magazine cover showing President Trump looking down on a crying 2-year-old Honduran girl.

Of course now we know that the “crying girl” story was totally fake news. That girl was never separated from her mother, and they had paid a smuggler six thousand dollars to get them across the border.

---

This Obama-era pilot program kept asylum-seeking migrant families together. Trump canceled it.

The Family Case Management Program, launched as a pilot in early 2016, aimed to keep asylum seeking kin together, out of detention, and complying with immigration laws. It was praised by immigration advocates for both its high rate of compliance and its ability to help migrants thrive in a new country — right up until the Trump administration shuttered it almost exactly a year ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/obama-era-
pilot-program-kept-asylum-seeking-migrant-families-together-n885896

T

---

Oh, so "Obama did it, too" doesn't really fly? Whodathunkit?

Reichwing trolls = 0. Righteous patriots = 1.

---

Quote:

---

There you go, minimizing the horror of our "interventions", which are bloody and painful to the people that we "help".

During the Vietnam War, I saw a movie called "Hearts and Minds" and it made OUR VICTIMS very real to me, not just some colorless abstraction of "body counts" or tallies of "civilians killed", but people who lived, and then suffered and died at our hands. Mothers crying over the bodies of their babies, children crying over the coffins of their fathers.

It took a documentary movie, with none of the gore removed, to wake me up and make me understand what, exactly, we were doing to the people that we were "helping". Well, I can't make you sit down and watch Hearts and Minds; all I can do is post a few pictures and a few descriptions and hope that, somehow, reality will sink in and horror will follow.

What I find so terrible is that all of you people who CLAIM to be such nice, "caring" people can get so very, very tweaked about a child crying or about some concept like "human rights" can somehow ignore the literal mountains of bodies that we leave in our wake. Well, when I hear a child crying I just want to scoop them up and give them a hug. But let's be clear: This child is not dead, and neither are his or her parents. The problem is fixable, and should be fixed. Maybe we should start by NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN FOREIGN LANDS AND MAKING THEIR NATIONS HELLHOLES. Do you think THAT might be a good start? Or is that just too complicated for you?

Where is your sense of proportion, or reality? Don't you have any sorrow, or pity, or shame?

Apparently not! YOUR only reaction to the pictures of our victims is to attack me, personally, so you can once again deny reality, just as GSTRING's reaction is to attack me personally so that he can continue to minimize the awfulness. Why would you do that? Why would HE do that? Why would ANYone do that?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There's really no point in having any debate at this juncture.

All we need to do is sit back and watch the Leftists apparently go insane like they have the last week or so.

I don't know what's got you all riled up, all of the sudden, but you're practically ensuring that Trump is going to be re-elected.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There's really no point in having any debate at this juncture.

All we need to do is sit back and watch the Leftists apparently go insane like they have the last week or so.

I don't know what's got you all riled up, all of the sudden, but you're practically ensuring that Trump is going to be re-elected.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

RF has gone full-on troll, and a lot of the so-called left has gone whack-a-doodle. Yanno, I hated GWB with a passion. I loathed the man and his entire coterie of vicious war-mongering feed-the-wealthy neocons who thought nothing of killing a million Middle-Easterners as well as getting thousands of our soldiers killed and so many more maimed, based on a series of lies and bullshit.

But that didn't keep me from seeing Bill Clinton's and Barrack Obama's MANY and glaring faults, which ran - unsurprisingly!- along the very same lines as GWB.

It's a POLICY problem, not a personality one. It doesn't matter whether the President is a smooth talker like Bill and Barrack, or an apparent stumble-bum like GWB: Foreign "interventions" and provocations, the wealth gap and job loss ... have only gotten worse and worse since Clinton. Bush and Obama were no exceptions.

Trump, for all his many faults, is doing something VERY different. I disagree 120% with his "trickle-down" vision, but I hope he makes progress in withdrawing from our far-too-many military engagements (on behalf of the wealthy and powerful), re-balancing our trade imbalances and restoring our sovereign rights.

*****

SHINY, I'll do my best to dispense with the egregious insults if you do.

My point continues to be: As the nation with the overwhelmingly largest military force in the world (and the budget deficit to prove it) we must FIRST, DO NO HARM. Now, bombing, shooting, shelling, and torturing people - or paying, training and equipping others to do it for you ... CLEARLY does harm, so before we start down that road we have to make sure that we aren't doing more harm than good. The only way I know to ensure THAT is to make sure that you only use violence to directly defend yourself or others against violence. Otherwise you will probably wind up killing people because of "communism" or "freedom" or some other rationalization, and wind up doing far more harm than good.

One of the other problems using violence to achieve political ends is that once that process starts, only the most violent will get their way. In a nation with elections, there is absolutely no purpose to initiating or stoking violence, and any group that does that should be immediately suspect. That includes us.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by second:
Conservative George Will says vote against Republicans in midterms

Published: June 23, 2018 10:09 a.m. ET

Calling lame duck House Speaker Paul Ryan and others the “president’s poodles,” conservative columnist George Will says the virtual radio silence from Republicans in power over President Trump’s border policy means the GOP has to go.

Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy at the border was “the most telegenic example of misrule” and it provided “fresh if redundant evidence for the principle by which” independents and moderate Republicans should vote in the November midterms, Will wrote Friday in the Washington Post. As part of the policy — which Trump pinned on loopholes created by Democrats — families were separated and young children held in questionable conditions before the president later reversed the separation mandate.

Will said a GOP majority’s position to fill any upcoming Supreme Court vacancies is too high a price to pay for undermining the executive and legislative dysfunction he tagged in this column and other comments.

Writes Will, “the congressional Republican caucuses must be substantially reduced. So substantially that their remnants, reduced to minorities, will be stripped of the Constitution’s Article I powers that they have been too invertebrate to use against the current wielder of Article II powers.”

“They will then have leisure time to wonder why they worked so hard to achieve membership in a legislature whose unexercised muscles have atrophied because of people like them,” he said.

“Not because James Madison’s system has failed but because today’s abject careerists have failed to be worthy of it,” Will wrote. “Congressional Republicans (congressional Democrats are equally supine toward Democratic presidents) have no higher ambition than to placate this president.”

Party criticism comes after a tumultuous week for Trump.
More at www.marketwatch.com/story/conservative-george-will-says-vote-against-r
epublicans-in-midterms-2018-06-23

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by reaverfan:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
You Leftist zombies become more amusing every day.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

---

Your willful ignorance, along with that of about 60 million uneducated white racists, is the problem, and there's nothing amusing about it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In the spectrum of "scumbagginess", which is worse: Grabbing pussy, or killing a half-million children?

I propose, at the start of any ranking of Presidential scumbagginess, that we start out by counting the bodies of the dead and maimed left behind. Apply some rationality (rationality = the ability to ratio, to compare relative sizes) and objectivity to our thoughts. Does that sound reasonable?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THERE GOES THUGR, BUSY IGNORING THIS. Keep covering for our atrocities, son. You do us all proud.

=

Quote:

---

There you go, minimizing the horror of our "interventions", which are bloody and painful to the people that we "help".

During the Vietnam War, I saw a movie called "Hearts and Minds" and it made OUR VICTIMS very real to me, not just some colorless abstraction of "body counts" or tallies of "civilians killed", but people who lived, and then suffered and died at our hands. Mothers crying over the bodies of their babies, children crying over the coffins of their fathers.

It took a documentary movie, with none of the gore removed, to wake me up and make me understand what, exactly, we were doing to the people that we were "helping". Well, I can't make you sit down and watch Hearts and Minds; all I can do is post a few pictures and a few descriptions and hope that, somehow, reality will sink in and horror will follow.

What I find so terrible is that all of you people who CLAIM to be such nice, "caring" people can get so very, very tweaked about a child crying or about some concept like "human rights" can somehow ignore the literal mountains of bodies that we leave in our wake. Well, when I hear a child crying I just want to scoop them up and give them a hug. But let's be clear: This child is not dead, and neither are his or her parents. The problem is fixable, and should be fixed. Maybe we should start by NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN FOREIGN LANDS AND MAKING THEIR NATIONS HELLHOLES. Do you think THAT might be a good start? Or is that just too complicated for you?

Where is your sense of proportion, or reality? Don't you have any sorrow, or pity, or shame?

Apparently not! YOUR only reaction to the pictures of our victims is to attack me, personally, so you can once again deny reality, just as GSTRING's reaction is to attack me personally so that he can continue to minimize the awfulness. Why would you do that? Why would HE do that? Why would ANYone do that?

---

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

---

Quote:

---

Well, let's see....starting with Washington?- SGG

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by reaverfan:
No liberals approved of our adventures in the middle east. We were ignored, as usual

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by REAVERFAN:
Won't change the fact that what I said is true.

---