REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Russia Invades Ukraine. Again

POSTED BY: CAPTAINCRUNCH
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 27, 2024 17:47
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Tuesday, April 11, 2023 6:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, the USA was defeated in Afghanistan, and fought to a standstill in Iraq, Syria. Militarily defied by Iran and Russia.
And yet you persist in the delusion that the USA has this big unstoppable military.


The USA DOES have a big, unstoppable military.

Failure after Failure is a feature... not a bug.

Quote:
Will you admit your mistake when NATO gets its ass handed to it in Ukraine? Or will you continue to deny reality?

One way I see the war in Ukraine ending is that Zelenskiy flees Ukraine and sets up a "government in exile". That way NATO/USA doesn't have to surrender or acknowledge defeat, and they can do a gentle PR glide to memory-holing the Ukraine clusterfuck.


Ukraine is fucked. Ukraine was always fucked.

$130 Billion from the US so far, and god knows how much wasted money and ordinance from the rest of the civilized world completely gone to waste and laundered so the Oligarchs can have an ever-increasing size of the pie in this zero-sum game we live in.

We could have ended world hunger for 2.5 years with the money the US has pissed away so far in Ukraine.

Fuck Joe Biden. Fuck Democrats. Fuck NeoCons. Fuck the Uniparty. Fuck the complicit Media. Fuck Ukraine. Fuck child rapist Zelensky.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2023 7:39 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yanno, the USA was defeated in Afghanistan, and fought to a standstill in Iraq, Syria. Militarily defied by Iran and Russia.
And yet you persist in the delusion that the USA has this big unstoppable military.

Will you admit your mistake when NATO gets its ass handed to it in Ukraine? Or will you continue to deny reality?

One way I see the war in Ukraine ending is that Zelenskiy flees Ukraine and sets up a "government in exile". That way NATO/USA doesn't have to surrender or acknowledge defeat, and they can do a gentle PR glide to memory-holing the Ukraine clusterfuck.
Alternatively, Putin could claim that he killed millions of Nazis in Ukraine, destroyed $trillions in Nazi property, shut down the Nazis' electricity, and withdraw from Nazi Ukraine as the victor! Russians will accept whatever lie Putin wants to tell them, especially if they will be thrown into the Army if they don't believe Putin's stories:

Russia Moves to Digitize Military Summons, Prevent Conscripts from Fleeing Amid Fears of New Draft
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/04/11/russia-moves-to-digitize-mil
itary-summons-prevent-conscripts-from-fleeing-amid-fears-of-new-draft-a80786

Russia Lost 1.3M Young Workers in 2022 – Research
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/04/11/russia-lost-13m-young-worker
s-in-2022-research-a80784
Where did 1.3 million workers go? Off to war or left Russia because they did not want to go to war.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, April 11, 2023 8:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Big Serge has a detailed summary of those leaked documents

Here it is, edited for brevity

Quote:


Apr 10, 2023
Author’s Note: I had been intending to publish an article on Soviet operational art this week, but the emergence of the leaks diverted my attention and led to this article instead. We’ll return to military history shortly.

Another winter has ended, and spring has again arisen on the war in Ukraine. Amid the thaw and attendant mud, Russian forces - including the indominable Wagner Group - have pushed the Ukrainian grouping in Bakhmut to the brink, with the AFU now clinging its last defensive toehold in the city. Bakhmut has become the largest battle of the 21st century, and is now entering its climactic phase.

Nevertheless, battlefield developments have been upstaged to some extent by the apparent leak of classified US military intelligence documents which provide a sweeping view into the inner workings of the Pentagon’s war.


... The general impression is that an American folded the briefing documents up, put them in his/her/their/xer/xem/plur pocket (the American military is a Diverse and Inclusive institution, and the leaker could have any, all, or no gender), took the pages home and photographed them. It was almost certainly not a Russian asset - if the documents had been acquired by Russian intelligence, they would have kept it internal.

... The most significant implication of the documents is simple: Ukraine’s combat power is significantly degraded, and in particular their mechanized units and artillery forces are in very rough shape.

The relevant material here in particular is a page entitled “US Allied & Partner UAF Combat Power Build”... The plan calls for a force of twelve nominal brigades, nine of which will be equipped by NATO and three internally generated by the Ukrainians. The leak does not offer insight into the three Ukrainian brigades, but the intended complement of the nine NATO brigades is meticulously listed).

All told, the combat power build calls for these brigades to field a total of 253 tanks, 381 Infantry Fighting Vehicles, 480 Armored Personnel Carriers, and 147 artillery pieces. This implies that these will be brigades in name only, and will in fact be far understrength. Parceling these systems out across nine brigades will give an average strength of a mere 28 tanks per brigade, along with some 95 IFVs/APCs and 16 artillery tubes. Compare this to a US Army Armored Brigade Combat Team, which would have almost 90 tanks and almost 200 IFVs/APCs. An American Stryker Brigade (a lighter, rapidly deployable formation) would have about 300 Strykers - the Ukrainian 82nd Brigade is listed to receive only 90.

In combat power terms, therefore, these new brigades are going to be far understrength. Their tank strength, far from being full brigade level, amounts to less than an American armored battalion.

Another key aspect of the force build document is the training schedules. This document dates from the beginning of March, at which point five of the nine brigades were listed at “Training 0% Complete”. Only one of the brigades was more than halfway trained, rated at 60% complete. Despite this, six out of nine were scheduled to be ready by the end of March and the remainders by the end of April. This can only be achieved with significantly truncated training times, and these are detailed in the document. Leopard tank training, for example, is listed at only six weeks. Just for context, American tankers can pencil in 22 weeks of training for the Abrams.

The overall picture, therefore, is rather foreboding for Ukraine. The leaked documents do not give us insight into the three brigades that Ukraine is expected to generate with their indigenous assets, but the nine NATO trained and equipped brigades are slated to be significantly understrength and manned by personnel who are receiving a hugely accelerated training course. These brigades will almost certainly need to be deployed in groupings to be capable of the requisite combat tasks.

An ancillary but important note at this point is the fact that, as best we can tell from these documents, Ukraine’s prewar tank park is almost completely gone. Ukraine went to war with about 800 of its workhorse T-64, but the NATO combat power build notes only 43 now on hand. There are others, of course, that are currently being operated by Ukrainian frontline units, but the build plan indicates that Ukraine has virtually none in reserve to equip this vital attack package, on which all their hopes will depend.

Meanwhile, a separate element of the leak paints a similarly dismal picture of Ukraine’s ranged fires. Buried on a page marked “NOFORN” - which means No Foreign Nationals, even allies, are supposed to see it, is a logistics table showing 155mm shell deliveries and expenditures. This bit is rather shocking.

We have known for quite some time that Ukraine is facing a critical shell shortage, but the leaked documents reveal just how acute this issue is. Ukraine’s usage rate is very low right now - the report claims only 1,104 shells had been expended in the previous 24 hours - compare this to the 20,000 or so shells that the Russian army is firing on a daily basis. Even more alarming for Ukraine is the note that they have only 9,788 shells on hand.

Even with a low burn rate that leaves the AFU massively outgunned, they have enough on hand to sustain combat for a little over a week, and they rely on a trickle of deliveries from the USA to keep these stocks stable. The report noted a shipment of 1,840 shells departing in the next 24 hours. Batches of this size are obviously insufficient for Ukraine to build up its stocks, and can only serve to backstop and replenish daily expenditure. There is no possibility of America quickly ramping up the size of these deliveries, because a mere 14,000 shells are produced per month. US officials hope to get this number up to 20,000 this year, but this is still below Ukraine’s current burn rate.

The implication is pretty straightforward. Ukraine is on a shell ration that leaves it unable to offer more than token fire, and it will likely have to live with this shell ration for the duration of the war.

The overall picture of Ukrainian combat power is atrocious. Their overall combat effectiveness faces a hard ceiling due to systemic shell shortages, and the mechanized package slated for the spring offensive is going to be far less potent than advertised. Those nine NATO-created brigades will have the striking power equivalent of (if we are being generous) perhaps four genuine full strength brigades, augmented by three internally generated Ukrainian brigades of dubious quality. Ukraine’s hopes for a glorious assault on the Russian land bridge to Crimea will rest on, at most, 400 tanks and perhaps 30,000 men.

Should this force dash itself to pieces against the well prepared Russian forces in the south, an important question would present itself. If this was the best force that NATO could generate for Ukraine, what will the second team look like? Will there even be another force? This understrength and undertrained mechanized package may be Ukraine’s last serious roll of the iron dice.
The American Analytic Framework

While the leaked documents certainly do not paint an encouraging picture of Ukraine’s force generation, they also offer a similarly shocking glimpse into the state of American military intelligence.

One of the things that immediately jumps out when one looks at the operational reports (the pages showing detailed situation maps) is that the Pentagon apparently has far more information on Russian dispositions than on Ukrainians units. Russian units are strongly accounted for - their locations are precisely marked, unit designations are identified, there are assessments as to which Russian units are combat capable or not, and there are very specific estimates of Russian frontline strength (IE, 23,250 men on the Zaporizhzhia axis and 15,650 men on the Kherson axis).

In contrast, Ukrainian units are not given combat capability designations, their locations are more generally indicated, and there are huge ranges on the assessed manpower (10,000 to 20,000 men on the Donetsk axis - an enormous margin of error!) This, incidentally, is another reason why I think the documents are genuine. If the intent was to put forth disinformation to confuse or deceive the Russians, one would expect actionable (but fake) intelligence about Ukrainian deployments - yet there is no such thing here. Ukrainian strengths and dispositions are presented vaguely and inconclusively, so the only thing the Russian army might extrapolate from this report is that the Americans don’t really know what’s going on with Ukrainian forces.
Why not? If we have the capacity to ferret out info on Russia, can it be so much harder to do the same with Kiev?

Quote:
Indeed, this is the inescapable conclusion. The Pentagon does not seem to have a strong sense of Ukrainian unit strength, location, or activities. They also list their assessed Ukrainian KIA at a mere 16k-17.5k. This is an absurdly low number - where could they have gotten it? In fact, it is a direct copy-paste of the casualty numbers reported publicly by the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense.


... One can only conclude that the tail is wagging the dog. The Ukrainians are able to extract material, training, and cash from the west, but there is little accountability or honest information flow in return.


More at Big Sege substack



-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Wednesday, April 12, 2023 8:08 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Big Serge has a detailed summary of those leaked documents

Here it is, edited for brevity . . .

More at Big Sege substack



-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger

Signym, your editing can’t be trusted because your Henry Kissinger quote got "edited" until it meant the opposite of what he said. It is like "editing" or removing a NOT from a sentence would reverse the meaning. Here is what Kissinger actually said:

Henry Kissinger said in November 1968, after Richard Nixon was elected U.S. president but before he took office: “Nixon should be told that it is probably an objective of Clifford to depose Thieu (South Vietnamese president Nguyen Van Thieu—ed.) before Nixon is inaugurated. Word should be gotten to Nixon that if Thieu meets the same fate as Diem, the word will go out to the nations of the world that it may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal.”

The quotation referred to America’s role in Vietnam. If America doesn’t stand by its friends and allies, the quotation explains, then it might ultimately be less dangerous to be America’s enemy.

Much more at
https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/it_may_be_dan
gerous_to_be_americas_enemy_but_to_be_americas_friend_is_fatal

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 12, 2023 8:15 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The Kremlin passed legislation to use tools of digital authoritarianism to digitize and improve the effectiveness of issuing summonses and crack down on Russian draft dodgers.

The Russian State Duma adopted a bill in its third reading on April 11 to create a digital unified register of Russian citizens eligible for military service.[1] Russian military recruitment offices will use the digital register to issue summonses to military service. The unified register harvests Russian citizens’ personal identification information—including medical, educational, and residence history, foreign citizenship status, and insurance and tax data—from multiple Russian legal entities, including Russia’s Federal Tax Service, investigative bodies, courts, medical institutions, the Russian Pension and Social Insurance Fund, the Central Election Commission, and federal and local authorities.[2]

Summoned individuals may not leave Russia and must appear at a military recruitment office within 20 days of being summoned. The law bans summoned individuals who are 20 days delinquent for reporting from driving vehicles, buying or selling real estate, and taking out loans.

A senior Russian legislator stated that the law will correct some of the bureaucratic shortcomings that appeared during Russia’s partial mobilization in September 2022.[3]

Some Russian milbloggers who have long agitated for more aggressive force generation policies praised the law and stated that it exemplifies healthy interactions between Russian civil society and government.[4]

ISW previously forecasted that the Kremlin would marry Soviet-style societal control measures with big data and 21st-century information technology to intensify control over the Russian population after Russia used facial recognition, QR codes, and mobile device geo-tracking technology to enforce a draconian COVID-19 quarantine in 2020.[5]

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-april-11-2023

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 12, 2023 8:30 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


How strong is US-Ukraine wartime alliance? What the leaks reveal.
Howard LaFranchi

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2023/0411/How-strong-is-U
S-Ukraine-wartime-alliance-What-the-leaks-reveal

The extraordinary cache of recent and highly sensitive U.S. intelligence documents leaked online offers a window into the U.S.-Ukraine relationship that has been forged by more than a year of war. And not just any war, but one that has morphed into the front lines of what the Biden administration portrays as a defining battle between democracy and autocracy.

Amid such high stakes, the leaks underscore significant cooperation – including how U.S. assistance has moved well beyond providing crucial weaponry to advising the Ukrainians on the optimal targeting of Russian forces.

Leaked U.S. intelligence documents indicate close coordination between Washington and Kyiv in the latter’s war with Russia, but there are limits. Experts point to Ukraine’s innate distrust of great powers, even friendly ones. The leaks won’t help.

But mixed in is also a fair dose of mutual wariness. Matthew Schmidt, an expert at the University of New Haven, says Kyiv “has never trusted the U.S.” with running the war for them.

The timing of the leaks is particularly problematic for Kyiv, which is preparing its crucial spring counteroffensive.

“So much is riding on the success of this offensive,” says Rajan Menon, a director at Defense Priorities, a Washington think tank. It should surprise no one, he says, that officials in Kyiv are probably even more secretive now.

“If I were in the Ukrainians’ place,” he adds, “I would be just as careful about revealing sensitive information, no matter who the recipient is.”

The extraordinary cache of recent and highly sensitive U.S. intelligence documents that have appeared these last weeks on social media sites and gaming chatrooms – largely focused on military and diplomatic aspects of the war in Ukraine – includes revelations on friend and foe alike.

In the “foe” column, the leaks include precise and timely details of Russian war planning and suggest deep U.S. penetration into Russian decision-making centers, from the Kremlin to the mercenary Wagner Group.

But then there are the friends – and in particular, Ukraine.

The documents – about 100 pages of what appear to be photocopied (and sometimes altered) intelligence briefings and “secret” reports – also offer a window into the U.S.-Ukraine relationship that has been forged by more than a year of war.

And not just any war, but one that has morphed into the front lines of what President Joe Biden and his administration portray as a defining battle between democracy, national sovereignty, and the rule of international law on the one hand, and autocracy, outside domination, and the rule of the strongest on the other.

Amid such high international stakes, the leaked documents underscore a relationship of significant cooperation – especially notable considering the relatively short period of time over which the intense relations have developed.

For example, some of the leaked information suggests how U.S. assistance has moved well beyond simply providing crucial modern weaponry to advising the Ukrainians – sometimes on a daily basis based on sophisticated satellite imagery – on the optimal targeting of Russian forces and repositioning of Ukrainian forces to evade planned Russian attacks.

But mixed in with that impressive degree of cooperation is also a fair dose of mutual wariness – exemplified on the U.S. side by leaked revelations that Washington spies on Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. That “news” drew grumblings and professions of disappointment from Kyiv, but analysts and some U.S. officials say no one should be surprised that the United States is managing its full-bore commitment to Ukraine on the basis of “trust but verify.”

Ukraine’s continuing wariness toward Washington – exemplified by what some U.S. officials describe as a frustrating opaqueness among some Ukrainian officials – has less to do with the U.S. specifically and more to do with a long and difficult national experience with outside powers, regional analysts say.

“It’s not about mistrusting the Americans; it has to do with Ukrainian history and a very strong sense that they cannot be dependent upon some outside hegemon – even a good hegemon,” says Matthew Schmidt, a political scientist with expertise in Russia and Ukraine at the University of New Haven in Connecticut.

What Dr. Schmidt says he’s learned from his time in Ukraine both before and during the war, including recently, is that “the Ukrainian government has never trusted the U.S.” with running the war and internal affairs for them, “and they are never going to,” he says.

“They’ve always been very careful to keep the final decisions – and the real questions they are asking themselves – to themselves,” he adds. “They say, ‘We need this and that weapons system from you to win this, but in the end we have to depend on our own counsel.’”

“Close to the vest”

That perspective is widely shared by analysts who have experience beyond the Ukraine-Russia theater to other conflicts pitting an expansionist regional power against a smaller state.

“Ukraine, like any country facing a mortal threat, is being very careful about the numbers they release and the planning they share beyond very tight circles,” says Rajan Menon, director of the Grand Strategy Program at Defense Priorities, a Washington think tank promoting realist principles and focusing on core U.S. national security interests. “They’re keeping quiet and playing very close to the vest.”

The leaked documents are particularly galling to Kyiv coming when they do – as Ukraine prepares its crucial spring counteroffensive against Russian positions inside the country. Moreover, they appear to reveal a significantly more depleted Ukrainian military than Kyiv has acknowledged.

Kyiv has been particularly tight-lipped on its own casualty figures. One document that appears to have been crudely altered to boost Western estimates of Ukrainian casualties and slash those suffered by Russia has been cited by both pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian bloggers as evidence of a disinformation campaign. Another document, from late February, projects the depletion of munitions for Ukraine’s air defense systems by early May – when a spring counteroffensive would presumably be well underway.

Officials in Kyiv have already altered plans for upcoming military operations as a result of the leaked information, according to some reports. And given the timing, that is not surprising, analysts say.

“So much is riding on the success of this offensive,” says Mr. Menon. “The West is looking for not just Russian failures but Ukrainian successes – and the Ukrainians are very well aware of this.”

Given the very high stakes involved, he says it should surprise no one – even or perhaps especially in Washington – that officials in Kyiv are probably even more secretive now about their plans.

“If I were in the Ukrainians’ place I would be just as careful about revealing sensitive information, no matter who the recipient is,” says Mr. Menon, who will have an essay on the implications of Ukraine’s counteroffensive in the upcoming edition of Foreign Affairs magazine. “It’s not a question of mistrust of the U.S. It’s a reflection of how defense planners operate.”

Pressures on Ukraine

Some worry, however, that officials in Kyiv will react to the leaks – and perhaps the fear that more damaging revelations could be coming – by acting precipitously. It’s just one reason the State Department has launched a global effort to reassure allies over the revelations, including what some officials say is Washington’s assessment that no more leaks are likely to be forthcoming.

“The Ukrainians are under a lot of pressure to finish the war this year,” says Dr. Schmidt, the political scientist, pointing to among other things the political pressures the Biden administration and other Western supporters are facing at home to ratchet down their military and economic support to Ukraine.

“That puts extra pressure on choosing the right time and place for the offensive,” he says. “But if the revelations of their risk points prompt them to be less methodical about their choices, that could be disastrous.”

Dr. Schmidt says that for all the pressure the Ukrainian government is feeling from Washington and other Western allies, of at least equal weight is the “public pressure” internally to move beyond what is perceived as the stalemate that set in with Russia over the winter – as exemplified by the battle for Bakhmut – to tide-turning gains soon.

Indeed, a leaked assessment of fighting in Ukraine’s Donbas region from late February concludes that a stalemate setting in there is likely to “thwart” Moscow’s goal “to capture the entire region in 2023.”

That assessment is now being born out, Dr. Schmidt says, adding that it may have been Ukraine’s aim beginning months ago.

“The strategy seems to be to fight Russia to a stalemate in the Donbas, fix their position there – commit them to that spot – and unleash a totally different style of warfare ... elsewhere,” he says.

What might that be? Dr. Schmidt points to the anticipated deployment of 10 or more fresh brigades coming off of what NATO refers to as “combined arms maneuver” training – or what he describes as “training to fight with more equipment, less manpower.”

An offensive with as many as 50,000 fresh and well-trained troops going up against the mostly poorly or untrained fighters on the other side could be decisive, he says.

And while the timing might remain a closely held secret by a country that has learned to depend most of all on its own counsel, the elements that will make up the offensive – the varied weaponry, the trained troops – will unavoidably be the result of deep cooperation with (and indeed material dependence on) the U.S. and other Western supporters.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 12, 2023 8:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The Most Shocking Thing About This American Reporter’s Arrest in Russia

“Journalism is not a crime,” a State Department spokesman said of the young reporter’s arrest.

The problem is, in Vladimir Putin’s Russia, it often is a crime. In declaring Gershkovich a foreign spy, Putin may have been looking not for a token in a prisoner-exchange, but for an example to deter other reporters — foreign and domestic — from doing their jobs.

Russia has criminalized journalism for a decade. It’s surprising this has happened so rarely.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/evan-gershkovich-wrongfull
y-detained-in-russia.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, April 12, 2023 11:16 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


"The leak is only damaging as the Biden administration allows it to be," said Dov S. Zakheim, a former undersecretary of defense in the Reagan administration. If the White House responds to the reports of Kyiv’s shortage of missiles and ammunition by "accelerating and expanding arms transfers to Ukraine, then they might prove useful to those who favor greater and faster American support for Kyiv."

In that case, he added, "the leaked reports of Ukraine’s weakness would be, by definition, OBE," he said, or "overtaken by events."

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/what-analysts-missing-leaked-pentagong
-documents-case

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 2:54 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Big Serge has a detailed summary of those leaked documents
Here it is, edited for brevity . . .
More at Big Serge substack.

SECOND: Signym, your editing can’t be trusted because your Henry Kissinger quote got "edited" until it meant the opposite of what he said.
Oh for fuck's sake, SECOND, If you don't like the EXTENSIVE quoting just go to Big Serge at substack. It's free.

And BTW, Kissinger meant exactly what it sounds like.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Thursday, April 13, 2023 5:31 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Most Shocking Thing About This American Reporter’s Arrest in Russia

“Journalism is not a crime,” a State Department spokesman said of the young reporter’s arrest.


Journalism is not a crime here either. Those of moderate intelligence in America are asking themselves why nobody here practices it. The really smart ones know that some do, but they are shunned by the bought and paid for Media and the stupid people.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 6:58 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Vladimir Kara-Murza’s last statement to Russian court: A reckoning will come

At the closing session of his trial in Moscow, Vladimir Kara-Murza** delivered these remarks:

Members of the court: I was sure, after two decades spent in Russian politics, after all that I have seen and experienced, that nothing can surprise me anymore. I must admit that I was wrong. I’ve been surprised by the extent to which my trial, in its secrecy and its contempt for legal norms, has surpassed even the “trials” of Soviet dissidents in the 1960s and ’70s. And that’s not even to mention the harshness of the sentence requested by the prosecution or the talk of “enemies of the state.” In this respect, we’ve gone beyond the 1970s — all the way back to the 1930s. For me, as a historian, this is an occasion for reflection.

At one point during my testimony, the presiding judge reminded me that one of the extenuating circumstances was “remorse for what [the accused] has done.” And although there is little that’s amusing about my present situation, I could not help smiling: The criminal, of course, must repent of his deeds. I’m in jail for my political views. For speaking out against the war in Ukraine. For many years of struggle against Vladimir Putin’s dictatorship. For facilitating the adoption of personal international sanctions under the Magnitsky Act against human rights violators.

Not only do I not repent of any of this, I am proud of it. I am proud that Boris Nemtsov brought me into politics. And I hope that he is not ashamed of me. I subscribe to every word that I have spoken and every word of which I have been accused by this court. I blame myself for only one thing: that over the years of my political activity I have not managed to convince enough of my compatriots and enough politicians in the democratic countries of the danger that the current regime in the Kremlin poses for Russia and for the world. Today this is obvious to everyone, but at a terrible price — the price of war.

In their last statements to the court, defendants usually ask for an acquittal. For a person who has not committed any crimes, acquittal would be the only fair verdict. But I do not ask this court for anything. I know the verdict. I knew it a year ago when I saw people in black uniforms and black masks running after my car in the rearview mirror. Such is the price for speaking up in Russia today.

But I also know that the day will come when the darkness over our country will dissipate. When black will be called black and white will be called white; when at the official level it will be recognized that two times two is still four; when a war will be called a war, and a usurper a usurper; and when those who kindled and unleashed this war, rather than those who tried to stop it, will be recognized as criminals.

This day will come as inevitably as spring follows even the coldest winter. And then our society will open its eyes and be horrified by what terrible crimes were committed on its behalf. From this realization, from this reflection, the long, difficult but vital path toward the recovery and restoration of Russia, its return to the community of civilized countries, will begin.

Even today, even in the darkness surrounding us, even sitting in this cage, I love my country and believe in our people. I believe that we can walk this path.

https://attentiontotheunseen.com/2023/04/12/vladimir-kara-murzas-last-
statement-to-russian-court-a-reckoning-will-come/

** Vladimir Kara-Murza is a Russian opposition politician and Post contributor who has been imprisoned in Moscow since April for speaking out against the war on Ukraine. He has been designated by Amnesty International as a prisoner of conscience.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 8:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Most Shocking Thing About This American Reporter’s Arrest in Russia

“Journalism is not a crime,” a State Department spokesman said of the young reporter’s arrest.
Unless you're Julian Assange. And then you will be held in a foreign jail (UK) on bogus charges (Sweden), and once THOSE charges are dropped you'll STILL be held, in maximum security, awaiting extradition to yet another country (USA).

Do these people even HEAR themselves?

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Thursday, April 13, 2023 9:42 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Most Shocking Thing About This American Reporter’s Arrest in Russia

“Journalism is not a crime,” a State Department spokesman said of the young reporter’s arrest.
Unless you're Julian Assange. And then you will be held in a foreign jail (UK) on bogus charges (Sweden), and once THOSE charges are dropped you'll STILL be held, in maximum security, awaiting extradition to yet another country (USA).

Do these people even HEAR themselves?


Right?

It is beyond frustrating.

I can't even believe we're in the same genus, let alone species as these people.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 11:13 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
The Most Shocking Thing About This American Reporter’s Arrest in Russia

“Journalism is not a crime,” a State Department spokesman said of the young reporter’s arrest.
Unless you're Julian Assange. And then you will be held in a foreign jail (UK) on bogus charges (Sweden), and once THOSE charges are dropped you'll STILL be held, in maximum security, awaiting extradition to yet another country (USA).

Do these people even HEAR themselves?
You have heard of Whataboutism? One of the favorite tactics of Russians? Never mind about Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich falsely arrested by Russians, but whatabout the crank Assange, the make-believe journalist? Ecuador lost patience with Assange's mental illness, bizarre self-delusions, and obnoxiousness, and turned him over to the police. But whatabout Assange? What about him? What about him? Assange is every bit as crazy a human being as Signym and 6ix are.

Apr 11, 2019: Julian Assange, Insane Homeless Man, being dragged from the Ecuadorian embassy



It has been four years but the lawyers cannot decide between releasing Assange or extraditing him. The dizzy lawyers go back and forth, unable to make a decision. The judge should flip a coin and let Assange's lawyer call heads or tails to decide where to send their client. Don't let Assange be there because no decision will be made while Assange, once again, makes even a coin flip into a circus of extended litigation.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 11:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


You dipshits loved Assange before he came after your beloved serial-murderer Hillary.

Get fucked, retard.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 1:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yep, SECOND, WHAT ABOUT OUR COUNTRY?

I mean, why do you clutch your pearls and shriek about RUSSIA!RUSSIA! but manage to ignore trampled freedoms in OUR country? Yanno, our nation that "promotes democracy and freedom"?

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Thursday, April 13, 2023 5:35 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yep, SECOND, WHAT ABOUT OUR COUNTRY?

I mean, why do you clutch your pearls and shriek about RUSSIA!RUSSIA! but manage to ignore trampled freedoms in OUR country? Yanno, our nation that "promotes democracy and freedom"?
I am very familiar with citizens who voted for Trump or continue to defend him. They were shouting lunatics before Trump got into politics. They struggle in life because they were always highly defective individuals attracted to defective politicians. They've got problems that they richly deserve because of how crooked and stupid and rotten they are as living examples of Matthew 7:3-5

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 5:37 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Russian TV Suggests Finland, Poland, Baltics Want to Rejoin 'Mother Russia'

Kremlin propagandist Vladimir Solovyov looked back to centuries past in claiming that Moscow's European neighbors wish to "rejoin the Russian empire."

On his evening show on the Russia 1 channel, Solovyov first said the "main Russophobes" are Poland and the Baltic nations.

"They have formed an alliance of the resentful former provinces liberated in vain by the Russian empire and say that they now have an alliance, they are now all together, Poland, the Baltics, the Finns. And Romania has been dragged into it," he said.

Solovyov harked back to this era of the Russian monarchy in asking whether the countries' real hope was for "Mother Russia to bring us back home?" as he cited comments from one of his panelists, RT editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan, who has regularly railed against the West.

"So they want to rejoin the Russian empire in a complicated way," he said, adding that Finland and Poland "were developing fine when they were part of the Russian empire."

"They emerged as a more or less cultured nations, the culture as such had developed," he said. "Well Poland is a much more complicated case, but Finland for sure."

Solovyov has repeatedly used his evening show to pitch the Kremlin's invasion of Ukraine as a war between Moscow and NATO and has regularly called for nuclear strikes on Western countries that support Kyiv.

However last week, his comments calling for the use of thermobaric weapons on Ukrainian cities were too much for one of his guests.

Political analyst Vasyl Vakarov shook his head after hearing Solovyov suggest using the weapons that use oxygen to create a high-temperature explosion before igniting a second charge.

"I think there has to be another way, this is wrong," Vakarov said.

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-mother-finland-poland-baltics-solovyov
-1794101

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Thursday, April 13, 2023 6:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yep, SECOND, WHAT ABOUT OUR COUNTRY?
I mean, why do you clutch your pearls and shriek about RUSSIA!RUSSIA! but manage to ignore trampled freedoms in OUR country? Yanno, our nation that "promotes democracy and freedom"?

SECOND: I am very familiar with citizens who voted for Trump or continue to defend him. They were shouting lunatics before Trump got into politics. They struggle in life because they were always highly defective individuals attracted to defective politicians.
Oh, I see you gravitated back to your never-ending obssession: Trump. But, this isn't about Trump.
Seems like you can't corral your own thoughts.

Quote:
SECOND: They've got ... blah blah blah....
... as living examples of Matthew 7:3-5
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
YES, SECOND, why you do keep looking at the specks elsewhere (Russia, "Trumptards") when you SO CLEARLY miss the USA's continued rampage on human rights everywhere and civil rights at home, and can't see your own deranged thinking?
I wonder about that with almost every one of your posts (at least, as far as I read into them.)

But, yanno, it doesn't matter. Your own deranged posts and thoughts won't change reality. The USA will either get its shit together and start paying attention to its common interests (and not nutjobs and indentitarians like you) or it won't. And if it doesn't, we'll go down in flames.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Friday, April 14, 2023 8:52 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

But, yanno, it doesn't matter. Your own deranged posts and thoughts won't change reality. The USA will either get its shit together and start paying attention to its common interests (and not nutjobs and indentitarians like you) or it won't. And if it doesn't, we'll go down in flames.
Russian President Vladimir Putin reportedly personally approved the arrest of Wall Street Journal correspondent Evan Gershkovich. Bloomberg reported on April 12 that Putin personally approved the arrest of Gershkovich on espionage charges before the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) arrested Gershkovich in Yekaterinburg, Sverdlovsk Oblast on March 30 for collecting information constituting a state secret about the activities of a Russian military-industrial complex enterprise.[11] Putin’s reported personal involvement in the arrest suggests that the arrest was likely a retaliatory response to the US arrest of Russian national Sergey Cherkasov on March 24 on charges of acting as agent of a foreign power.[12] Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov denied that Putin ordered Gershkovich’s arrest and stated that Russian special services independently decided to arrest Gershkovich.[13] ISW has previously reported that the FSB has made other recent arrests in connection with information about defense enterprises in Sverdlovsk Oblast, and ISW assesses that the Kremlin may use the pretext of threats to Russia’s defense industrial base (DIB) to justify crackdowns and further conceal the activities of Russian defense industrial enterprises.[14] Putin’s reported personal involvement in the first arrest of a US journalist since the Cold War may indicate that the Kremlin viewed the arrest as a calculated escalation that it will attempt to use as leverage for extracting concessions from the United States.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-april-13-2023

Signym, Putin arrested that journalist. Both that and the Ukraine war wouldn't have happened if Putin had broader and more balanced interests rather than his own self-glorification.

Back in the US, the Iraq War wouldn't have happened if President Bush had been a more balanced man. But the US had back in 2000 and still has a rather large percentage of the voting population who are strongly attracted to unbalanced leaders. That would be because the voters are unbalanced, which shows in their daily lives full of foolish and unnecessary financial, domestic, and work dramas. Endless dramas of fools. It is those fools who "go down in flames." With their preferences for unbalanced politicians, those fools might cause the whole country to "go down in flames." Look at 6ix. The little man has lived like a fool all his life and his preference for a leader? Donald J Trump - an unbalanced man.

The 10 Worst U.S. Presidents
(Trump was better than James Buchanan who refused to challenge the states that became the Confederacy.)
https://www.usnews.com/news/special-reports/the-worst-presidents/slide
shows/the-10-worst-presidents?slide=10

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 14, 2023 2:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But, yanno, it doesn't matter. Your own deranged posts and thoughts won't change reality. The USA will either get its shit together and start paying attention to its common interests (and not nutjobs and indentitarians like you) or it won't. And if it doesn't, we'll go down in flames.

SECOND: Russian President Vladimir Putin reportedly


By who?
On what grounds?
Does anyone really think that anyone in the west has an ear on what goes on in the FSB or Security Council?
Ha!

****
BTW, if you had two neurons to rub together, you would have noticed that words and phrases like - allegedly, reportedly, according to anonymous sources etc - are just the media's way of distancing themselves from what they're publishing. They are publishing it as unverified. It's as meaningful as "some say..."

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Friday, April 14, 2023 2:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But, yanno, it doesn't matter. Your own deranged posts and thoughts won't change reality. The USA will either get its shit together and start paying attention to its common interests (and not nutjobs and indentitarians like you) or it won't. And if it doesn't, we'll go down in flames.


-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Friday, April 14, 2023 3:12 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


We should just stop engaging entirely with the half-wit troll.

I'm going to continue to respond to his posts that aren't directed to anyone here and call him a retard for believing them and/or just ripping them off outright, but we should probably just stop rewarding his bad behavior by doing a complete ignore when he speaks to anyone directly.

It's not as if there's any intellectual conversation we'd be missing out on.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Friday, April 14, 2023 4:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, yeah. But other ppl besides SECOND read this forum. I hate to see the nonsense that he posts plagiarizes stand unopposed.

Hard to believe they're from mainstream publications. Just goes to show the psyops that we're buried in every day.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Friday, April 14, 2023 5:33 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, yeah. But other ppl besides SECOND read this forum. I hate to see the nonsense that he posts plagiarizes stand unopposed.

Hard to believe they're from mainstream publications. Just goes to show the psyops that we're buried in every day.
Signym, I know how you, personally, can spin this next story where Russians killed Ukrainian prisoners but you could do your special little interpretation and reverse everything, misunderstand everything, by making the Russians into victims and the Ukrainians, no longer the victims, but make them into villains. I know you can do it, Signym! Start by calling Jews the real Nazis and go with it, Signym.

Russia’s reaction to videos that seem to show its forces beheading Ukrainian soldiers hints at recognition of humanitarian law.

Russia and Ukraine rarely agree on much these days. Yet this week, after the release of two videos on social media that appeared to show Russian forces had beheaded three captured Ukrainian soldiers, the two countries seemed to find common moral ground. Each launched an investigation of the videos.

The Kremlin said they were “awful.” Russia’s Prosecutor General’s Office promised to verify their authenticity and then “make an appropriate decision.” Ukraine called on the International Criminal Court to investigate and opened its own war crimes probe.

The gruesome nature of decapitation – a brutality associated more with terrorist groups – may account for Russia’s apparent concern. The videos could push Russian opinion against the war and further unite the Ukrainian people. Such reactions would reaffirm the modern legal norms that wars must have humanitarian limits and that combatants in a conflict must protect civilians, the wounded, and prisoners of war.

Both Ukraine and Russia are among nearly 200 countries that are party to the Third Geneva Convention, the international law that dictates rules on the treatment of POWs. Yet Russia has largely ignored many of the Geneva Conventions since the invasion, especially in bombing civilian targets, executing civilians in captured towns, and taking Ukrainian children to Russia. Ukraine has committed similar atrocities but not nearly as many. And more importantly, it is investigating them.

Shocking violence can sometimes change the course of a conflict. The My Lai massacre of Vietnamese civilians by U.S. soldiers in 1968 shifted American opinion of the Vietnam War. In 2005, Al Qaeda told its branch in Iraq to stop its frequent beheadings. Videos of those acts were losing “Muslim hearts and minds,” said a leader of Al Qaeda. Many Islamic scholars also weighed in against such violence.

Beheadings during a war may be aimed at instilling fear, but they can also create a response that helps limit the war by affirming moral guardrails. That response is based on the presumed innocence and dignity of civilians or captured soldiers.

If the Kremlin does now seek to adhere to the rules of war, it would be a recognition that Russia must still exist within a moral community, one based on humanitarian law with the idea that what unites people is far stronger than what divides them. War needs limits because of the infinite good within humanity.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230414212256/https://www.csmonitor.com/C
ommentary/the-monitors-view/2023/0414/The-worst-of-war-violence-versus-the-best-of-humanity

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 14, 2023 6:16 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


The man who fled to Belarus after coming to Russian authorities’ attention because his daughter drew an anti-war picture at school, has been extradited back to Russia, according to a media report.

Belarusian authorities handed over Alexei Moskalyov, who was detained in Minsk late last month, to Russia, a spokesperson for the Belarus interior ministry told state newswire RIA Novosti.

In late March, a court in the town of Yefremov sentenced Moskalyov to two years in a penal colony for discrediting the Russian army on social media, but he was not present for sentencing, having gone on the run. Moskalyov was detained two days later in Belarus by the local authorities.

Belarus under dictator Alexander Lukashenko has closely aligned itself with Russia after it launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Russian troops entered Ukraine from Belarus at the beginning of the war; a year later, in late March this year, Lukashenko allowed Russia to station nuclear weapons on Belarusian soil.

Although the Yefremov court convicted Moskalyov over social media posts calling Russian soldiers “rapists” and the country’s leaders “terrorists,” his defense team and rights activists argue he was actually punished for an anti-war picture drawn by his 13-year-old daughter in April last year.

The girl was later placed in state care and denied communications with the outside world. The case has been likened to the Stalinist practice of targeting the children of “enemies of the state.”

https://www.politico.eu/article/anti-war-protest-alexei-moskalyov-extr
adited-russia/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 14, 2023 7:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, yeah. But other ppl besides SECOND read this forum. I hate to see the nonsense that he posts plagiarizes stand unopposed.

Hard to believe they're from mainstream publications. Just goes to show the psyops that we're buried in every day.

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger




Yup.

BTW... Have you seen the muzzle for the dog? I can't seem to find it anywhere.



--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Friday, April 14, 2023 7:51 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

BTW... Have you seen the muzzle for the dog? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
I know where you're coming from, 6ix. Trump is howling at the moon:

Trump is trying to win more GOP voters with bizarre takes on the Ukraine war and praise for Putin

Trump made repeated false and misleading claims about the Ukraine war during a Fox News interview.

Trump praised Putin as "very smart" amid the stalemated and brutal fight the Russian leader ordered.

Trump's grasp of the war's appeared spotty and an echo of Russia's propaganda.

Trump repeatedly made false and misleading claims about the war in Ukraine while offering high praise for the Russian leader and accused war criminal who launched it.

Trump said Russian President Vladimir Putin "loved" Ukraine, while acknowledging that the unprovoked war Putin ordered has devastated the former Soviet republic. "He considers it to be a part of Russia," Trump said of Putin's view on Ukraine, which was among the few accurate remarks the former president made on the subject during the interview with Fox News' Tucker Carlson — who also has routinely echoed the Kremlin's propaganda on the war.

At one point in the interview, Trump also appeared to suggest — without evidence — that the US was responsible for explosions that damaged the Nord Stream pipelines, the kind of attack line often heard in Russian state-run media.

"I don't want to get our country in trouble," Trump said when asked about the Nord Stream sabotage.

The former president also falsely said that the Biden administration has "taken the military that I've rebuilt, and they've given it all to Ukraine."

At times, Trump was unintelligible during the interview with Carlson as he jumped from one topic to another. But the former president was quite clear when it came to praising of US adversaries, as he lauded Putin as "very smart," North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un as "smart," and Chinese leader Xi Jinping as "brilliant." It was not the first time Trump has expressed admiration for some of the most repressive leaders in the world. Trump, for example, previously described Putin's justification for invading Ukraine as "genius."

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-offers-false-takes-on-ukraine-pr
aises-putin-tucker-interview-2023-4

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 14, 2023 7:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Russian state television has claimed Donald Trump is "laying the groundwork" for the U.S. to make a deal to help end the war in Ukraine.

During an episode of the 60 Minutes program, host Evgeny Popov discussed the former president's recent interview with Fox News' Tucker Carlson.

During the interview, Trump suggested that Ukraine "cannot win" the war with Russia, while also appearing to suggest the U.S. should stop sending military aid to Kyiv.

"Putin, very smart. Now, he's had, probably a bad year," Trump said. "If he took over all of Ukraine what are we going to do because Biden is so committed to Ukraine. What happens if it's not a winnable war?

"There are people that say Ukraine cannot win. You can't beat Russia…Russia right now is making massive amounts of ammunition, beyond anything they've ever made before. We don't have any ammunition. We've given it to Ukraine."

While playing segments of Trump's interview, Popov said the former president had proposed that the U.S. "surrender" and stop assisting Ukraine's fight against Russia.

"According to Trump, America is tired of fighting Russia," Popov said. "Western politicians imposed more sanctions on Russia than they did against Iran and North Korea put together.

"They promised everyone a quick victory and the crash of Russia's economy. Instead, the bank system in the U.S. is falling apart and the European economy is falling into recession.

"According to Trump, Moscow has already won the economic war. Republicans understand they will have to make a deal, and Donald is laying the groundwork."

The show then played a section of Trump's interview in which he warned about Russia's nuclear weapon capabilities, as well as the threat of such weapons being used if World War III were to break out.

Trump has frequently attacked the U.S. response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and repeatedly claimed he could end the war "within 24 hours," without revealing how.

In March, the former president told Fox News' Sean Hannity that part of his suggested peace plan would be to allow Russia to "take over" parts of Ukraine.

"That's without even negotiating a deal. I could have negotiated. At worst, I could've made a deal to take over something, there are certain areas that are Russian-speaking areas, frankly, but you could've worked a deal," Trump told Hannity in a radio interview.

In March 2022, a report from Mother Jones revealed the Russian government instructed its news outlets to show clips of Carlson "as much as possible" because of his critical views of U.S. policy. Carlson has also been accused of echoing Russian propaganda on his Fox News show.

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-groundwork-ukraine-russia-war-1794144

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, April 14, 2023 10:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Dbl

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Friday, April 14, 2023 10:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
... and the Ukrainian president and many in his entourage have been skimming untold millions from the American dollars earmarked for diesel fuel payments. One estimate by analysts from the Central Intelligence Agency put the embezzled funds at $400 million last year, at least; another expert compared the level of corruption in Kiev as approaching that of the Afghan war, “although there will be no professional audit reports emerging from the Ukraine.”
Corrupt politicians in Kiev have been literally “competing … to set up front companies for export contracts for weapons and ammunition with private arms dealers around the world, all of which provide kickbacks”, Hersh wrote. “I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are others in places like the Cayman Islands and Panama, and there are lots of Americans involved,” a US expert on international trade told Hersh.

CIA Director William Burns had confronted Zelensky in a meeting in January in Kiev, saying the Ukrainian brass was angry because Zelensky “was taking a larger share of the skim money than was going to the generals.”

Burns presented Zelensky with a list of 35 corrupt Ukraine generals and top brass, Hersh writes, forcing Zelensky to fire ten Generals and do “little else.”

“The ten he got rid of were brazenly bragging about the money they had—driving around Kiev in their new Mercedes,” Hersh reports. Zelenksy’s lackluster response allegedly contributed to a “total breakdown” of trust between the corrupt Biden Regime and honest elements of the intel community.

Another sticking point for honest members of the intel community is “the strident ideology and lack of political skill shown by Secretary of State Tony Blinken and National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan”, Hersh notes.

White House Resident Biden and his two main foreign policy shills Blinken and Sullivan “have no experience, judgment, and moral integrity. They just tell lies, make up stories. Diplomatic deniability is something else,” according to Hersh’s sources. “They live in different worlds” than the experienced diplomats and military and intelligence officers.

“There is a total breakdown between the White House leadership and the intelligence community,” the intelligence official told Hersh. The rift dates back to the fall, when Biden ordered the covert destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, as Hersh reported.

“Destroying the Nord Stream pipelines was never discussed, or even known in advance, by the community,” the official told Hersh. “And there is no strategy for ending the war. The US spent two years planning for the Normandy invasion in World War II. What are we going to do if China decides to invade Taiwan?”

CIA director William Burns “is not the problem,” according to Hersh’s sources. “The problem is Biden and his principal lieutenants—Blinken and Sullivan and their court of worshippers—who see those who criticize Zelensky as being pro-Putin. ‘We are against evil. Ukraine will fight ’til the last military shell is gone, and still fight.’ And here’s Biden who is telling America that we’re going to fight as long as it takes.”


https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/trading-with-the-enemy


-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Friday, April 14, 2023 11:36 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Joe Biden* is a criminal.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Saturday, April 15, 2023 7:40 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Dbl
This deserves double posting: Prigozhin considers that Russia can incur a defeat in Ukraine and that such a defeat in the short run would actually benefit Russia.

Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin is setting information conditions to exploit a Russian military failure if the planned Ukrainian counteroffensive is successful. Prigozhin published an essay on April 14 in which he argues that Ukraine’s coming counteroffensive is more likely to succeed than fail.[11] Prigozhin warned that a selfish Russian “deep state” (which he defines as “a community of near-state elites that operate independently of the political leadership of the state and have close ties and their own agenda”) is currently in crisis due to the Russian military’s failures to secure a victory quickly.[12] Prigozhin accused members of this deep state embedded in the Russian bureaucracy of deliberately sabotaging Russian success in the war because they seek to resume their privileged lives of comfort.[13] Prigozhin stated that these Russian deep state "internal enemies” will push the Kremlin to “make serious concessions” tantamount to “betraying Russian interests,” including even possibly returning occupied Ukrainian territory to Ukraine over the course of a few years.[14]

Prigozhin explicitly rejected the notion of any negotiations to end the war and urged Russians to continue fighting, even if it results in Russia’s temporary defeat. Prigozhin stated that Russia must ignore the Russian deep state’s temptations to cut Russian losses and settle.[15] Prigozhin stated the Russian military cannot stop fighting now despite current Russian territorial gains because the Ukrainian state has transformed, and unoccupied Ukraine is now politically opposed the Kremlin. Prigozhin stated that Russia must continue to fight relentlessly in Ukraine regardless of how adverse conditions become. He stated that any scenario in which Russia faces defeat will result in a groundswell of “radical national feelings” in Russia that will serve as the catalyst for a reinvigorated Russian patriotism and enable the Russian nation to undergo the baptism by fire necessary to emerge victorious and defeat Ukraine.[16] Prigozhin’s essay is thematically and logistical consistent with his previous stated effort to transform Wagner Group into a hardline ideological elite parallel military organization to advance Russian interests.[17]

The Russian nationalist discourse about the acceptability of Russia suffering defeat in Ukraine deviates from some Western assertions of the need to preserve Russia from humiliation and allow Russia to “save face.” Prigozhin’s argument that the Kremlin must resist the temptation to settle and instead remain committed to winning in Ukraine is not compatible with the idea that the Kremlin must be given a way to save face lest it conduct a massive, possibly nuclear, escalation.[18] It is noteworthy that Prigozhin – one of most extreme thought leaders among Russia’s pro-war faction – considers that Russia can incur a defeat in Ukraine and that such a defeat in the short run would actually benefit Russia. Prigozhin’s comments, together with those of other radical pro-war voices, highlight the priority that the pro-war community places on galvanizing Russian society and energizing it for a long fight against the West. That agenda is not advanced by courting thermonuclear destruction.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-april-14-2023

Prigozhin published an essay on April 14 with these last few words:
Quote:
Russia cannot accept any agreement, only a fair fight. And if we come out of this battle battered, there is nothing to worry about. The fortified regions of Russia make it impossible to penetrate into its depths. And the Russian people have never broken down and will never break down. Therefore - Only Fair Fight! And the sooner it starts, the better.

I summarize. The Ukrainians are ready to attack. We are ready to repel the blow. The best scenario for healing Russia so that it rallies together and becomes the Strongest State is the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, in which no handouts and negotiations will be possible.

And either the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be defeated in a fair fight, or Russia will lick its wounds, build up muscles and tear its rivals again in a fair fight. Therefore, I believe that the option of agreements is impossible for the future of Russia.

See you at Bakhmut.
https://telegra.ph/Tolko-chestnyj-boj-nikakogo-dogovornyaka-04-14
https://telegra-ph.translate.goog/Tolko-chestnyj-boj-nikakogo-dogovorn
yaka-04-14?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Mentally preparing for a difficult future, the Russians are telling themselves that a defeat now will mean a greater victory later. "Defeat" means "Victory" and "Down" is redefined as "Up" in Russia.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 15, 2023 7:54 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Joe Biden* is a criminal.
WAIT! So the traitor who leaked US intelligence to hurt Ukraine was a racist right wing gun nut?
You don’t say!

What we know about the suspected leaker of Pentagon documents
https://www.npr.org/2023/04/14/1169952771/jack-teixeira-background-pen
tagon-document-leak

None of the articles mention how the traitor voted in 2020, but I'd bet a million he voted for Trump.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, April 15, 2023 8:47 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Joe Biden* is a criminal.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Saturday, April 15, 2023 9:28 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Ukrainians said to pull back in Bakhmut as Moscow launches new push

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukrainians-said-to-pull-back-in-b
akhmut-as-moscow-launches-new-push/ar-AA19QW1E

Russia’s oil exports are back to pre-war levels

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/14/energy/russia-oil-exports-iea-report


#Rootin4Putin

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Saturday, April 15, 2023 11:54 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Child rapist Zelensky embezzled more than $400 Million from US aid last year and is buying discount diesel from Russia with US Taxpayer dollars.

https://thenationalpulse.com/2023/04/13/zelensky-and-his-generals-embe
zzled-at-least-400m-from-u-s-aid-last-year-according-to-intel/

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Sunday, April 16, 2023 8:27 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Reporting from some Western sources that Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin called for Russia to end its war against Ukraine is inaccurate.[1] Some Western reports covering Prigozhin’s April 14 essay on a potential Ukrainian counteroffensive and the future of the war miscontextualized a rhetorical statement in which Prigozhin established a strawman argument he attributed to Russia’s “internal enemies” who seek to rationalize Russia ending the war in Ukraine now.[2] The point of his essay was to attack this strawman, not to advance it. Prigozhin actually called on Russia to commit to a decisive fight that will either defeat Ukraine or result in a temporary Russian defeat that will catalyze Russia’s nationalist rebirth and set conditions for future victory.[3] A full reading of Prigozhin‘s essay, titled, “Only an Honest Fight: No Negotiations,” does not lend itself to any reasonable interpretation that Prigozhin advocated for an end to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

Reading Prigozhin‘s public communications is not a straightforward undertaking. Much of the nuance included in Prigozhin’s speech is lost when translating Russian to English. Prigozhin has an idiosyncratic rhetorical and writing style that relies heavily on deadpan sarcasm, selective ambiguity, aphorisms, vulgarity, and ironic slang. Prigozhin’s isolated quotes separated from the full context of his messages often lose their initial meaning.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-april-15-2023

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 12:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


No surprise that mighty Russia struggles to conquer little Ukraine. Anybody who is too competent will either be executed, jailed, or leave the country:

Opposition activist Vladimir Kara-Murza has been sentenced to 25 years in jail in Russia for charges linked to his criticism of the war in Ukraine.

He was found guilty of treason, spreading "false" information about the Russian army and being affiliated with an "undesirable organisation".

The Russian-British former journalist and politician is the latest of several Putin opponents to have been arrested or forced to flee Russia.

He has denied all of the charges.

Mr Kara-Murza, 41, has spent years speaking out against Russian President Vladimir Putin and, alongside the war in Ukraine, has also been critical of the government's crackdown on dissent.

Last week, he said in a statement that he stood by "every word that I have said... Not only do I not repent any of this, I am proud of it."

"I know that the day will come when the darkness engulfing our country will clear," he added in remarks posted online. "Our society will open its eyes and shudder when it realises what crimes were committed in its name."

Mr Kara-Murza's 25-year sentence, which has been widely condemned, was the maximum sought by prosecutors and is the longest sentence an opposition figure has received since the war in Ukraine began.

It took only minutes for the judge to rule on his case - sometimes the delivery of verdicts and announcing sentencing can take a long time in Russian courts.

The judge said Mr Kara-Murza would serve his time in a "strict regime correctional colony" and that he would be fined 400,000 roubles ($4,900; £4,000).

The tough sentence is a sign that in today's Russia the authorities are not only determined to silence critics but also to neutralise anything or anyone they believe represents a threat to the political system. Putin neutralizes anyone who is not dopey.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65297003

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 1:17 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Russian opposition activist Vladimir Kara-Murza has been sentenced to 25 years in prison for breaking Putin’s “misinformation” laws, laws introduced after his invasion of Ukraine, an act which Putin himself has all but given up pretending is anything other than a war.

So absurd is the level of misinformation required to maintain the lies about Ukraine that Putin has, on several occasions, almost broken his own laws himself.

Naturally, Kara-Murza’s crime is to have had the courage to tell the truth; to accurately describe Putin’s Russia as the kleptocracy and autocracy it is.

He said that “Russia is a nation of symbols.” And that it was obvious exactly who Putin was from the moment in 1999 when he changed the Russian national anthem back to Stalin’s approved version.

Since then, for decades, world leaders have, he said, “rolled out the red carpet for him, shaken his hand, or asked for ‘a reset.’” They have been complicit in his appeasement, they have allowed stolen money to be stashed away in their banks, or spent on luxurious lifestyles in London or Paris or New York.

He has already spent 25 years warning us. As early as about 2001 he once breezily said to me that it was tiring work, that he was getting nowhere and he’d kind of had enough. He was doing his degree in history, so I mentioned something to him about the Aventine Secession, when opposition parties withdrew from the Italian parliament in protest at the murder of Giacomo Matteotti, but the consequence was that it provided the opportunity for Mussolini to assume dictatorial power. I remember it because it was the only time that I knew about something he didn’t.

Every time I saw him after that, he mentioned the Aventine Secession. “They just walked away Tom! They quit! They walked out! And look what happened! Look what happened!”

The Aventine Secession was the first thing he mentioned when I called him up in 2017. He did it to make the point that he was simply never, ever going to give up. That he would go on to the end, whatever the cost may be. In his statement to the court last week, he was predictably defiant.

“Not only do I not repent of any of this, I am proud of it,” he said. “I blame myself for only one thing: that over the years of my political activity I have not managed to convince enough of my compatriots and enough politicians in the democratic countries of the danger that the current regime in the Kremlin poses for Russia and for the world. Today this is obvious to everyone, but at a terrible price — the price of war.”

He will have known the consequences when he spent the early weeks after the invasion, criticising Putin on international television from a flat in Moscow, and all the while refusing to leave. He actually returned to Moscow from London for the purposes of doing so, saying it was his duty. How, as a Russian opposition politician, could he expect Russians to stand up to Putin if he would not do so himself?

He will also know that whatever sentence imposed on him is largely meaningless. As Alexei Navalny likes to say, both he and Putin are serving life sentences. One of them will have to end first.

More at https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/putin-russia-critic-war-kara-murz
a-b2321085.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 1:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As usual SECOND you got your head stuck up some know-nothing's ass. It's been widely acknowledged for months now that Russia is fighting war of attrition. That means destroying the opposing military while taking far lower losses, not taking territory. I've heard (not sure how reliably) that there have been internal discussions in the Russian MoD on whether to completely close the pincer around Bakhmut, but since Kiev insists on pouring more men and machines along the "Road of death", in those terms Bakhmut is "the gift that keeps on giving".

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Monday, April 17, 2023 3:46 PM

THG


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

As usual SECOND you got your head stuck up some know-nothing's ass. It's been widely acknowledged for months now that Russia is fighting war of attention. That means destroying the opposing military while taking far lower losses, not taking territory. I've heard (not sure how reliably) that there have been internal discussions in the Russian MoD on whether to completely close the pincer around Bakhmut, but since Kiev insists on pouring more men and machines along the "Road of death", in those terms Bakhmut is "the gift that keeps on giving".


You're so funny comrade signym. You really are.

T

ARE THERE ANY FOOD SHORTAGES IN RUSSIA RIGHT NOW?






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Monday, April 17, 2023 4:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Your sources are as biased and unreliable as SECOND'S.
I would have thought that BY NOW you would have learned to take note of their biases and reliability (or lack of).

If all of your "info" turns out not to be true, will you learn to treat your sources with at least the same amount of suspicion that you treat ZH?

-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger


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Monday, April 17, 2023 6:58 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Signym, you know, this paragraph and another that you wrote today, don't actually describe the same war. Either Russia is annihilating the Ukrainian military or Russia is annihilating the US Army and NATO, and the US is keeping the deaths a total secret.

Version 1)
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
As usual SECOND you got your head stuck up some know-nothing's ass. It's been widely acknowledged for months now that Russia is fighting war of attrition. That means destroying the opposing military while taking far lower losses, not taking territory. I've heard (not sure how reliably) that there have been internal discussions in the Russian MoD on whether to completely close the pincer around Bakhmut, but since Kiev insists on pouring more men and machines along the "Road of death", in those terms Bakhmut is "the gift that keeps on giving".
Elsewhere and today, Signym wrote:

Version 2)
Quote:
a) The USA and its NATO "allies" are getting their ass handed to them in Ukraine, and since the USA came to dominate the world by giving the impression of military invincibility, once the spell is broken resentment and blowback emerge. . .

IMHO anyway.
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61834&mid=11726
17#1172617

Actually, there is a third version of the War in Ukraine that is different from Signym's two versions given above:

Version 3)
Quote:
Russia is losing.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 7:05 PM

THG


Agreed second, Russia is losing the war.

T

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Monday, April 17, 2023 7:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


No. They're not.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Monday, April 17, 2023 7:37 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
No. They're not.
Belief in Russian superiority follows from believing in Trump.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 7:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
No. They're not.
Belief in Russian superiority follows from believing in Trump.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


It has nothing to do with superiority.

Simple facts.



--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Monday, April 17, 2023 7:53 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

It has nothing to do with superiority.

Simple facts.
Enough democratic countries recognize the danger that Putin and his supporters pose to the world and Putin will lose. Enough Americans recognize the danger Trump and his Trumptards pose to the US and Trump will lose.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, April 17, 2023 8:22 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Uh huh.

Meanwhile... Have you bothered looking around you and seeing what's happened to our country in the last 2 years?


Name one good thing that doesn't include the word Trump in it.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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