REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Thursday, October 12, 2023 02:05
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 117262
PAGE 54 of 57

Saturday, August 21, 2021 9:50 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


It sounds like they're having a harder time wrangling up fake Delta death numbers than they are finding polls that keep Biden*'s job approval above water.

But then again without flu deaths to blame in the middle of summer, it makes sense that it's harder for them to do so now.



--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 31, 2021 5:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Fear-mongering among the anti-COVID-vax crowd.


https://www.theepochtimes.com/whos-really-being-hospitalized_3963392.h
tml


A lot of it depends on really intentionally misleading reporting.
Quote:

“We don’t have accurate numbers,” insists Dr. James Neuenschwander, an expert on vaccine safety based in Ann Arbor, Michigan.
But what we do know, Neuenschwander says, is that the vaccines are not as effective as public health officials told us they would be. “This is a product that’s not doing what it’s supposed to do. It’s supposed to stop transmission of this virus and it’s not doing that.”

Neuenschwander may call himself an expert. The Epoch Times may refer to him as an expert. But he's a true anti-vaxer with a product to plug (his 'services') as the founder of a company "Bio Energy Medical Center, a multidisciplinary, integrative medical practice located in Ann Arbor, MI".

And he DEFINITELY spouts lies: “This is a product that’s not doing what it’s supposed to do. It’s supposed to stop transmission of this virus and it’s not doing that.”

Well - no. Not at all.
As I've already pointed out at least a couple dozen times, the vaccines were developed to reduce severe COVID-19 and deaths. That was the endpoint of ALL studies done on vaccine effectiveness. The researchers and the companies knew that because this was an injected vaccine, it wouldn't stimulate mucosal IgA antibodies, and it's at mucosal surfaces where infection and transmission occur. That the vaccines happened to reduce transmission of the original strain of SARS-CoV-2 was an unexpected (and afaik still unexplained) benefit - but that was never, ever, even remotely-hinted-at, the goal of the vaccines. To repeat, the formal measures to determine if a vaccine was good or not were severe illnesses and deaths, not 'transmission', as Neuenschwander falsely claims.

When it comes to 'wrong COVID-19 numbers' the article points to extremely rare misreporting by doctors and medical examiners, without being able to show that these are widespread systematic issues.

In another instance "... nursing home officials said their (COVID-19) data were somehow scrambled, either because nursing home personnel reported in the wrong columns, or the numbers were loaded incorrectly somewhere between the CDC and CMS." https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86967 But database data transfers are notoriously easy to corrupt. All it takes is a missing, or extra, comma (or other field delimiter) to scramble everything else that comes after that in the data stream. So column 4 may be reported as column 5, 5 as 6, ... and so on, all they way down in every column to column 87.

And while people make a big stink about individual data streams being accidentally over-reported (and which is in the process of correction), nobody seems to admit that there's the opposite problem - data being very much underreported (unless of course it's NYS and political hay is to be made!).


What do I make of all the misleading reporting out there? It sure seems to be intentional.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, August 31, 2021 6:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



General thoughts on 'what is disease' ...

If a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear, does it make a sound? Or, if a medical abnormality has no obvious symptoms, does it exist?

To some extent the answer depends on your life philosophy. If you think that the only thing that exists is what you sense, then you'll answer no to both those questions (and if you close your eyes and plug your ears to the big truck coming at you, you'll be saved). But if like me you believe that there's an objective reality that exists without personal perception, then the answers will be yes.

So one big problem - if you believe in an objective reality - is the false equation between symptoms and disease.

I know of a LOT of diseases that can exist over many, many years without any symptoms at all, that won't alert you of their presence until right before you die. Lung cancer, ovarian cancer, and pancreatic cancer are notoriously cryptic until just before they kill you. Does that mean those cancers didn't exist at all until you developed symptoms ... and then died?

OTOH there can be many causes for the same symptoms. For example a left big toe could be red, swollen, and painful due to infection, gout, or a broken bone. But all those symptoms are clustered together. Does that mean that there's a "red, swollen, and painful left big toe disease"?
No. The observation that there are many obvious and completely distinguishable causes for a red, swollen, and painful left big toe is the reason why there's no listed disease as "red, swollen, and painful left big toe disease". Instead, diseases are grouped according to a common precipitating cause of the symptoms - like a broken bone.

Even more, 2 people with the exact same medical problem can show non-identical clusters of symptoms. Asthma can exist with and without wheeze, for example, even though both will show impaired exhalation on testing.

(BTW, I know of no one who runs their real life with the notion that 'if you don't sense it, it doesn't exist'. They know that even if they can't see water damage behind the walls, if there's a leak, it still exists. Or that if they don't check their car's engine oil, running too low for too long will still cause engine damage.)

Because many even fatal diseases can exist without symptoms; many different causes can create the exact same symptoms; and people with the same disease can have a different mix of symptoms; it's important to understand that there's a correlation between symptoms and disease; but that it's necessary to distinguish one from the other. A disease can exist without symptoms, or with a variable cluster of symptoms, and not all symptoms have the same cause. in other words, disease does not equal symptoms. Again - a lack of symptoms doesn't mean you're free from disease, a cluster of symptoms doesn't mean you have what your neighbor with the same symptoms has, and having the same disease doesn't mean you'll all have the same symptoms.


Moving on to infections in general, and COVID-19 in particular.

In general, there are many different symptoms associated with 'infections': localized infection is associated with heat, redness, and tissue swelling, for example; and more generalized infections are associated with fever, higher heart rate, malaise, and headache, for example.

And in both types of infection it's not the antibodies that cause those symptoms, it's your own body's high level of cytokines doing that. Cytokines are completely different than and distinguishable from antibodies. Among other things cytokines help in commanding your body's responses to infection, from calling immune cells en masse, to creating body-wide responses far from the infection site, like fever.

And when your body's cytokines go overboard, the generalized old-fashioned name for it is 'cytokine storm' (not 'antibody storm').
Quote:

Symptoms might include:4??

Fevers and chills
Fatigue
Swelling of extremities
Nausea and vomiting
Muscle and joint aches
Headache
Rash
Cough
Shortness of breath
Rapid breathing
Seizures
Tremor
Difficulty coordinating movements
Confusion and hallucinations
Lethargy and poor responsiveness

Very low blood pressure and increased blood clotting can also be hallmarks of severe cytokine storm syndrome. The heart may not pump as well as it normally would. As a result, cytokine storm can affect multiple organ systems, potentially leading to organ failure and death.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/cytokine-storm-syndrome-4842383



So, if you have an infection but no cytokine response symptoms, does that means you're not sick?

No.

All the while you have invaders in your body (bacteria or viruses), they're busy going about destroying tissues and secreting toxins, at the very least. A person who's had a serious bout of bacterial pneumonia might have reduced lung function for example, because the bacteria permanently destroyed a vital amount of lung tissue. Whether or not a person has (cytokine) symptoms, pathogens destroy body tissue. That's why we call them pathogens and not, say commensals. They're destructive in and of themselves.



So how does all this relate to COVID-19 in particular?

A person infected with SARS-CoV-2 still has an infection, whether they experience any or only a few mild symptoms. Just because they feel fine and have normal(or -'ish') readings doesn't mean they don't have an infection.

Symptoms are (mostly) caused by cytokines, not antibodies.

But tissue destruction can occur with any infection, with or without symptoms.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:00 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Thank you for the post, KIKI.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

So what's going on with Israel?

Israel has 3 extremely sharp COVID-19 peaks so far.

6276 cases/ 7 days Sep 27 2020
39 deaths / 7 days Oct 15 2020
CFR 0.62

8190 cases/ 7 days Jan 15 2021
65 deaths / 7 days Jan 25 2021
CFR 0.79

6991 cases/ 7 days Aug 21 2021
5923 cases/ 7 days Aug 9 2021
21 deaths / 7 days Aug 21 2021
CFR 0.35

Pfizer mass vaccination: Jan 1 - March 31 2021
Most eligible people were vaccinated 5-8 months ago, reaching a peak for the first vaccination wave of 57% of the total population.

Israel's vax eligibility age limit was 16, and about 25% of its population is under 16. So about 25% are unvaxed due to age, and by calculation about 18% are eligible unvaxed. So current cases are probably skewed to the young; and deaths have a 'youth discount'.

With that in mind, the current CFR at roughly half the previous CFR may be in part due to an age discount and not vaccination status.

Obviously these are 'back of the envelope' calculations; I'm sure the Israeli government has exact figures.

That might be why Israel is giving out booster shots. Vax effectiveness against death isn't as robust as they supposed.

I usually go to Divoc-91 to look at the curves, but I AM confused about what they call "cases". What does it mean?

It's not "hospitlaizations" because THOSE are reported separately. So does it mean "reported to a doctor"? Or "Confirmed infections"? I'm under the impression that - for Divoc-1- it means "confirmed infections", whether the person is symptomatic or not. And the reason why I think that is how Divoc-91 is using the term bc their "new cases" is highly dependent on the number of tests being administered.

Anyway, according to Divoc-91, Israel is experiencing its highest #of (new) confirmed cases, ever. Their previous high (one wk avg) was 94 per 100,000 on January 17, 2021. Their CURRENT high (as of this date) is 97 per 100,000. I haven't done a first, second, and third derivative on the data (useful for peak detection) but just visually the peak shows no signs of heeling over.

Their previous peak deaths was 0.71 per 100,000 (Jan 25) and their current death rate topped out at 0.29 per 100,000 and the last point was lower than the previous, so one hopes the death rate has topped out.

132 'cases' per death during the previous peak versus 334 'cases' per death now (however Divoc-91 defines 'cases') Or, put another way a CFR of 0.76% previously and 0.30% now, keeping in mind that 'death' may not have caught up to 'cases' yet.

So I'm getting about the same figure as you: a CFR about half of previous. That's good news.

Much more serious than a common cold. I'm sure the Israeli Ministry of Health is keeping a close eye on the CFR of the vaccinated elderly versus the unvaccinated young.

However, according to the Mayo study (roughly 33,000 people in each "arm" of the Pfizer/BNT v Moderna v unvax) all of the deaths, except one, occurred in the unvax cohort. Now, the Mayo population was vaccinated much later than the Israeli population, and it seems the vax effectiveness drops off precipititously, which is prolly why Israel is going with booster shots.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The good news is that among Israel's serious infections on Thursday of this week, according to Health Ministry data, the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category, and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in the under-60 crowd (3.2 per 100,000) was a little more than double the rate among vaccinated people in that age bracket.


So if you've over 60 and haven't been vaccinated, your risk of serious illness is almost 10X that of a fully-vaccinated person. And if you're under 60 and haven't been vaccinated, your risk of serious illness is almost double that of a vaccinated person.

Quote:

Israel is the first country to offer a third shot of the Pfizer vaccine in a nationwide booster campaign. Preliminary research in Israel suggests booster shots significantly increase protection against the coronavirus a week after a person receives the third dose.

Israeli national HMO Maccabi Healthcare Services, which conducted the preliminary study of 149,144 Israelis who received three Pfizer shots, said for Israelis above age 60, a Pfizer booster shot reduced the chances of infection by 86% and reduced the chances of severe infection by 92%.



https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly
-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why


If I have time I'll try to find the original study.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 7:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I decided to look up Covid-19 and cytokine storm, which appears to trigger the most fatal consequence of Covid-19 infection: Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS)

It is ARDS that causes most deaths, but some studies show heart endothelial damage as well.

Cytokine storm from Covid-19 appears to be triggered by reaction to the spike protein. In trangenic mice which express humanized ACE docking sites, a subunit of the spike protein (S1) appears to trigger cytokine reaction, but - curiously- the entire (whole) spike protein does NOT seem to cause the same response. [my guess- because the S1 subunit is normally folded into the interior of the spike protein)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34156871/

Here is a comprehensive description of the various monoclonal antibody studies targeting spike proteins, spike protein receptors, interleukins, and marcrophages either with EUA or in trial for pre- or post-exposure prophylaxis, or for treatment of ARDS and other serious cases of Covid-19.

I thought this was particularly interesting

Quote:

After binding of SARS-CoV-2 to alveolar epithelial cells, production of a range of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines, including GM-CSF and IL-6 occur, which in turn recruit more monocytes and macrophages and lead to a subsequent cytokine storm [21]. A great number of studies showed a raised level of various cytokines and chemokines including IL-2, IL-6, IL-7, IL-10, IL-17, G-CSF, GM-CSF, IP-10, MCP1, MIP1A, TNFa, IFN-?, VEGF, CCL2, etc. in more severe patients with COVID-19.

Although complete characteristics of cytokine storm in COVID-19 are yet to be specified, anti-cytokine mAb could play a crucial role in the case of severe COVID. Multiple IL-6 inhibitors including tocilizumab (phase 4), sarilumab (phase 3), and siltuximab are currently under investigation in clinical trials in several concerned groups. Among them, tocilizumab showed immediate improvement in the clinical outcomes of severe and critical patients, which proved to be an effective treatment for reducing mortality ...

A case-control study showed 80% reduction in relative risk of invasive ventilation and/or death in patients treated with lenzilumab [targets granulocyte macrophage colony-stimulating factor GM-CSF] compared with the control group [30]. In addition, the median time to resolution of ARDS reduced to one day along with early discharge from the hospital for patients treated with lenzilumab versus eight days to resolution...

A study conducted on 10 terminally ill COVID-19 patients observed complete CCR5 receptor occupancy by leronlimab (CCR5 antagonist) on macrophage and T cells, resulting in a rapid reduction of plasma IL-6, restoration of the CD4/CD8 ratio, and a significant decrease in SARS-CoV-2 plasma viremia [32]. A novel approach using leronlimab thus could play an important role in resolving unchecked inflammation, restoring immunologic deficiencies, and reducing SARS-CoV-2 plasma viral load via disruption of the CCL5-CCR5 axis



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7872849

So research is ongoing to blunt the various aspects of cytokine storm which is fatal for some people.

----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 7:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Here is a recent WHO study (april 2021) of the effectiveness of remdesivir, hydroxychloroquine, lopinavir, and interferon on crtically ill patients.

I noticed that ivermectin was not included in the study. And the caveat to HCQ still applies- to be used as prophylaxis, not treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7872849/

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 8:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


General info on cytokines and chemokines

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7211650/

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 8:37 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Communal mask wearing had zero effect on subjects under the age of 50. The entire effect is for those 50 and older. That deserves a whole lot of attention since it's such an unexpected result.

https://jabberwocking.com/new-study-says-masks-work-if-youre-over-50/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 9:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hmmm. That IS unexpected, SECOND.


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 9:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To clarify, cytokine storm is NOT the same thing as antibody-dependent enhanced (ADE) infection, which is another thing altogether.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32785649/

ADE is specific to certain viruses like dengue. It's yet another one of those apparently baseless fears about Covid-19 vaccines.

I'm talking about cytokine storm, which I will be looking into. The problem with CS is that there are a lot of different triggers -some of them genetic-but it seems like nobody has a handle on what triggers it in some people but almost nobody else, and in the case of COVID-19 what makes the elderly (and obese young) more prone to CS than others.

To reiterate, cytokines are NOT antibodies.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 3, 2021 11:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



link to original mask study
https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_R
CT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf


I'd say that the demographics of Bangladesh are highly different from those of the US. So I'd apply those results to here with caution.



NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 4, 2021 12:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Masks don't do anything because nobody is requiring people to wear N95 masks.

With what most people are covering their faces with it's like using a fishnet stocking as a condom.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 5, 2021 12:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Masks don't do anything because nobody is requiring people to wear N95 masks.

With what most people are covering their faces with it's like using a fishnet stocking as a condom.


Sounds painful. I hope you don't know this from experience!




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 5, 2021 7:24 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


But I'm not wrong, am I?



--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2021 2:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Two top vaccine effectiveness and safety FDA people recently resigned, Marion F Gruber and Philip R Krause. This story's getting a small amount of coverage, but not as much as I think it deserves.

Dr. Marion Gruber, the director of the F.D.A.'s vaccines office, will retire at the end of October, and her deputy, Dr. Philip Krause, will leave in November ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/us/politics/fda-vaccine-regulators-
booster-shots.html


The reason why they would resign from their top positions may be because that part of the FDA was being sidelined in the vax booster debate, in favor of the CDC and other areas of the FDA.

Recently they were coauthors in a group of authors that penned a booster-debate letter printed in The Lancet. Here's the link, but it's far too long to try and reproduce here.

Quote:

Considerations in boosting COVID-19 vaccine immune responses

Philip R Krause, Thomas R Fleming, Richard Peto, Ira M Longini, J Peter Figueroa, Jonathan A C Sterne, Alejandro Cravioto, Helen Rees, Julian P T Higgins, Isabelle Boutron, Hongchao Pan, Marion F Gruber, Narendra Arora, Fatema Kazi, Rogerio Gaspar, Soumya Swaminathan, Michael J Ryan, Ana-Maria Henao-Restrepo
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2821%2902046-8
#page=1&
;

Obviously they're not anti-vax, so that's not the reason for the article. Basically the argument boils down to this: vaxes are too important a resource for the unvaccinated to blanket-advise wasting shots on already-vaxed people, because boosters have no clearly demonstrated benefit. To stop severe disease (and death), one needs to focus on getting everybody vaxed because vaxes are still highly effective.
Quote:

Current evidence does not, therefore, appear to show a need for boosting in the general population, in which efficacy against severe disease remains high. The ability of vaccines that present the antigens of earlier phases of the pandemic (the alpha strain) (rather than variant-specific antigens) to elicit humoral (antibody) immune responses against currently circulating variants indicates that these variants have not yet evolved to the point at which they are likely to escape the memory immune responses induced by those vaccines.
... careful observational studies that examine efficacy against severe disease remain useful and are less likely to be affected by diagnosis-dependent biases over time than are observational studies of milder disease, and could therefore provide useful indicators of any changes in vaccine-induced protection. (Monitoring for severe disease with new variants is more indicative of changing vax effectiveness, because there are too many confounding influences when looking at milder diseases.)
Although vaccines are less effective against asymptomatic disease or against transmission than against severe disease, even in populations with fairly high vaccination rates the unvaccinated are still the major drivers of transmission and are themselves at the highest risk of serious disease. The message that boosting might soon be needed, if not justified by robust data and analysis, could adversely affect confidence in vaccines and undermine messaging about the value of primary vaccination.
If boosters (whether expressing original or variant antigens) are ultimately to be used, there will be a need to identify specific circumstances in which the direct and indirect benefits of doing so are, on balance, clearly beneficial.
The vaccines that are currently available are safe, effective, and save lives. The limited supply of these vaccines will save the most lives if made available to people who are at appreciable risk of serious disease and have not yet received any vaccine. Even if some gain can ultimately be obtained from boosting, it will not outweigh the benefits of providing initial protection to the unvaccinated. If vaccines are deployed where they would do the most good, they could hasten the end of the pandemic by inhibiting further evolution of variants.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2021 4:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


OTOH supposedly there are vials being tossed out bc they've reached expiry. (Bc of American vaccine reluctance.)

So, what is it?

Scarcity or surplus?

Quote:

Meanwhile, back in the US, the Washington Post just reported - in an "exclusive" scoop likely spoon-fed to its journalists - that the administration is planning to buy hundreds of millions of additional doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech jab to donate to less fortunate countries from around the world. The announcement is expected to be made around the start of next week's United Nations General Assembly meeting, though the details haven't yet been finalized.

Some might say the administration's latest "gift" is merely more transparent virtue signaling as Biden continues to push booster jabs in the US against the wishes of the WHO.




https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/pfizer-says-mysterious-white-partic
les-found-japanese-jabs-are-safe



Confirmed here
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/biden-covid-summit.html

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2021 4:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I originally posted this in the herd immunity thread but it really belongs here

Quote:

Why Does No One Ever Talk About Sweden Anymore?
Friday, Sep 17, 2021 - 03:30 AM
Via 'Unmasked" substack,

One of the most consistently repeated trends of COVID has been the premature declarations of victory from areas with a perceived level of “success” in “controlling” the pandemic.

It’s happened in countries all over the world — Vietnam, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, Mongolia — just to name a few examples. They all have been praised for their ability to “control” the virus with masks and public health measures, only to then see cases invariably skyrocket.


https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/why-does-no-one-ever-talk-about-swe
den-anymore


Well, yes, We've heard much about Sweden.
At one time I compared Sweden to Finland and it nearest neighbor, demographically and geographically, Norway,

So, how DOES it stack up to other nations in terms of controlling Covid-19?

First of all, overall the sequence of peaks in cases and deaths doesn't match. There is an early peak in "deaths" UNACCOMPANIED for the most part by "cases" because the lack of test kits early on prevented a confirmed SARS-Cov2 infection, altho clinical picture and excess deaths support the attribution to Covid. After that, "cases" and "deaths" show the expected correlation.


SWEDEN'S basic numbers per 100,000
Cases, peaks: 73, 60, 10 (delta)
Deaths, peaks: early (before "cases") 1, midpoint 1.6, late (delta) near zero

AUSTRALIA
Cases: near zero thru the duration until (delta) when it rose to 7
Deaths: (early) 0.08, then near zero, currently (delta) 0.03


ISRAEL
Cases, three peaks, (early midoint) 70, (midpoint) 90, and (delta) 110
Deaths, (early midpoint) 0.4, (midpoint) 0.7, (delta) 0.3
NOTE: Israel missed the first wave of death


JAPAN
Cases: (midpoint) 5, (late midpoint) 4, (delta) 20 and dropping
Deaths (Midpoint) 0.08, (late midpoint) 0.08, (delta) 0.03
NOTE: Japan missed the first waves of death. Also, Japan's population is elderly


NORWAY
Cases (midpoint) 12, (late midpoint)17, (delta) 27
Deaths (early) 0.2 early, (midpoint) 0.1 (delta) near 0.
NOTE: Norway is Sweden's nearest geographic, cultural and demographic neighbor. Its death rate has been near zero except when otherwise noted.

VIETNAM
Cases: near zero until (delta), where it has leveled off at 13.
Deaths: appx 0.3 throughout

So, in terms of controlling Covid-19, Sweden has NOT done a fantastic job, and all of the other nations that this article tries to spin as "failures" have been more successful, some wildly so.


The authors COULD have argued that the economic price to pay for avoiding all of that suffering and death was too high. But that would have meant a messy argument about values, so they decided to be dishonest and spin the data instead.

EDITED TO ADD UNITED STATES per 100,000 (for comparison)

Cases: (early midpoint) 20, (midpoint) 70, 75*, (delta) 55
Deaths: (early) 0.7, (early midpoint) 0.3, (midpoint) 0.85, 1.1, (delta) 0.6

* The USA is geographically large and politically diverse, and had MANY "waves" of infections and deaths - some larger than others- as SARS-CoV2 spread into new areas. There were two more identifiable "waves" that I didn't mention because they weren't as significant.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2021 5:25 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Vaccine reluctance is one fly in the ointment about their letter.

If US people weren't getting vaxed because there was a vax scarcity, then it might be prudent to divert those shots from boosters to initial vaxes. Or, more altruistically, if the US could divert its unused vaxes (before expiry) to places around the planet where people really want to get vaxed, at least they'd be doing some good, somewhere - and that benefit eventually might even circle back to here, in the form of fewer variants. But 'saving' vaccines for initial vaccinations that aren't going to happen is pretty silly, imo.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 17, 2021 5:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



From your data, it looks like the sum total of many non-pharmaceutical interventions: border control, testing and quarantining, social distracting, school closings and lockdowns of various degrees and durations, hygiene - masking, hand sanitizing, etc - are more than effective enough to keep people healthy and alive --- even with delta in the works. Throw vaccination on top of that and you have enviable situations like Iceland, Vietnam, SK, etc.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 18, 2021 1:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, again, looking at the USA ...

Currently, the "cases" are going down sharply in the largest-contributor states (FL, TX, CA, TN, NC, OH, GA) but since "deaths" always lag by two weeks or so, the absolute number of deaths per day is near a shocking 2000/day.

The worst peak, at midpoint, was near 3,500/day and the initial wave of death, which rampaged thru NYC and NJ, was about 2,200/day.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, September 18, 2021 4:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I chat with neighbors as I walk the dog, and today I found out that my backdoor neighbor's brother in law (in Carson, site of yesterday's earthquake) died of Covid-19.


According to her, he had liver cancer and survived, developed kidney failure and lived on dialysis for years, got a kidney transplant and was doing great, only to be felled by Covid.

According to her, his whole family including son and daughter in-law who lived with him had Covid. They all thought they had persistent colds.

None of them were vaccinated.

The found him unresponsive this morning.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, September 19, 2021 11:51 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



THANKS Signy.


Apropos and very informative, as always.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, September 20, 2021 12:21 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Man... I was going back through this thread to find a particular post about how pissed off I was that I witnessed an old lady cry at the beginning of this pandemic because she was so scared and I couldn't even give a woman who obviously needed one a hug because she would have recoiled in horror if I'd done so.

Doing it because of this video here with Bill Maher and what he has to say about the responsibility of the Legacy Media for terrorizing all of you.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/19/bill_maher_liberal_
media_needs_to_take_responsibility_for_scaring_the_shit_out_of_people_about_covid-19.html


But boy... Is there mountains of terror regurgitated right in this thread dating back to February of last year. Most of it is entirely untrue with 20/20 hindsight too.

You all really should go back and take a look and see how awful you were over misinformation and lies.

It's really quite embarrassing, if you ask me.



Here's a little something I said back back in March of 2020.

Quote:

At the end of the day, right here, I'm the only person who's trying to tell people not to panic and the sky isn't falling.



And I'm still doing it a year and a half later.


Glad to have you on board, Bill Maher.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 7:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

COVID-19 In Norway Can Now Be Compared To The Flu, Says Health Chief
Friday, Sep 24, 2021 - 03:30 AM

By Frazer Norwell of TheLocal.de

Coronavirus can now be categorised as one of several respiratory illnesses with seasonal variation, Geir Bukholm, assistant director of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health (NIPH), has said.

For the past year and a half, Covid-19 has been classed as a generally dangerous disease. However, this could change soon as the assistant director of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health (NIPH), Geir Bukholm, has said the coronavirus can now be put in the same category as illnesses such as flu, common colds and RS (respiratory syncytial virus).

“We are now in a new phase where we must look at the coronavirus as one of several respiratory diseases with seasonal variation,” Bukholm told paper VG.

Last week the Ministry of Health and Social Care asked the NIPH to assess whether Covid-19 was still a dangerous disease.

While the NIPH has yet to return its findings, its assistant director has made it clear that the danger of Covid will be downgraded.

Covid could now be compared in severity with the likes of colds and flu because the vast majority of those at most risk of developing severe disease when infected are now fully vaccinated.

“And although the infection is still circulating, hospital numbers remain low. Thus, the coronavirus will not lead to a heavy burden on the health service. For those vaccinated who may become infected and develop symptoms, the vast majority will have mild cold-like symptoms.”

However, Bukholm did warn that even though Covid could now be compared with other common respiratory illnesses, the pandemic was far from over.

"The pandemic is not over as long as it exists in the world and in countries where the vaccine coverage is still low. As long as the diseases spread throughout the world, there is still a pandemic,” Bukholm cautioned.

VG has speculated that the disease being downgraded could be a sign that the lifting of the final national Covid-19 restrictions could be just around the corner.

The paper points to Denmark and the lifting of restrictions there once coronavirus was no longer considered a dangerous disease.

Last week health minister Bent Høie offered a glimpse at what Norway would look like once measures were lifted but didn’t offer a date for when restrictions would be lifted.



https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/covid-19-norway-can-now-be-compared
-flu-says-health-chief




-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 7:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

.Here's a little something I said back back in March of 2020.

Quote:

At the end of the day, right here, I'm the only person who's trying to tell people not to panic and the sky isn't falling.


And I'm still doing it a year and a half later.

It's one thing to say "the sky isn't falling" and another thing entirely to say that "Nobody ever died of Covid, ever".

You're not only lying about what others have posted, you're lying about what YOU have posted.

Is that how you retrive your sense of righteousness - by lying?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 7:58 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


lol

Go ahead and look at the posts from the first five months.

I'm not lying about what everybody else posted. You should all be embarrassed.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 9:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

At the end of the day, right here, I'm the only person who's trying to tell people not to panic and the sky isn't falling.
That's only if you don't count the roughly 700,000 who died from COVID-19 in the US.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 12:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
lol

Go ahead and look at the posts from the first five months.

I'm not lying about what everybody else posted. You should all be embarrassed.

I DID.
And I'M NOT.
I didn't see "panic" in ANY post. You seem to interpret that any post AT ALL about viruses indicates "panic".
But last I checked, this is a Real World Event discussion forum, emphasis on discussion.
For people who are checked into reality on the topic (i.e. not you) this is an event worth discussing.

What I see from YOUR posts is increasing reality-denial. It's one thing to say "Don't panic" it's another to deny reality completely.
I think you're reading waaaaaay too much into what was posted

But if you think there was "panic" anywhere, quote it.


******

Now, if you want to see REAL concern, how about these? Because, THIS event really had me concerned:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=47835 Nuclear power is safe, exceptwhen it's not Mar 13, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=47864 A few random thoughts mar 15, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=47997 TEPCO poisons Japan with plutonium smoking pot still illegal mar 26, 2011

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=48169 Hold on to your butts Apr 12, 2011

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=48481 All the news not fit to hear May 11, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=48481&p=1 News not fit to hear Jun 13, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=48705 Japan confirms full meltdown Jun 11, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=48904&mid=8
51179
Core overload? June 27, 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51915&p=1 Never before seen in the history of the world May 14, 2012
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51652 Fukushi ... San Francisco Apr 15, 2012
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=49430&p=1 ground venting radioactive steam Aug 2011
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=52443&p=1 Total media blackout July 8, 2012
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53269&p=1 Just because it's important Oct 12, 2012
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51006&p=1 Why we're all gonna die Feb 12, 2012
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58737&p=1 And meanwhile ... Oct 26 2014
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=50710 Meanwhile Jan 10, 2012
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=55891 OH SHIT

Missing, apparently, is the thread where hubby and I attempted to back-calculate the amount of nuclear fuel melted based on the hydrogen involved in the hydrogen explopsion. We estimated the size of the reactor building in CF, then calculated a range based on the lower and upper explosive limits of hydrogen. what we estimated was far lower than actuality.

*****



And just for fun
A Guy Walks Into a Bar ....
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=27799&p=1


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 2:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



We know Jack can have powerful anxiety, for example his anxiety about his house was enough for him to go on a multi-year non-stop bender. (And congratulations to Jack for finding a way to get past his anxiety, even though it was at the cost of believing the unreality that he's in complete control.)

I think Jack's answer to anything that's out of his control that makes him feel anxious is denial ... along with a hefty dose of projection. It's all 'their' fault for evilly trying to make him feel threatened with their 'lies' and 'panic'.

But enough about Jack.

This is a thread about a Real World Event.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, September 24, 2021 8:34 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

We know Jack can have powerful anxiety, for example his anxiety about his house was enough for him to go on a multi-year non-stop bender. (And congratulations to Jack for finding a way to get past his anxiety, even though it was at the cost of believing the unreality that he's in complete control.)



The house didn't put me on a bender. I put me on a bender.

I didn't have any issues with my house when I started drinking.

Then I fixed my drinking issue without any bullshit 12 step program or needing to "find God" first. My drinking was due to depression. Not anxiety.

I overcame that nearly life-ending adversity entirely on my own.

And after that, I fixed the house issues that crept up due to my negligence.

Quote:

I think Jack's answer to anything that's out of his control that makes him feel anxious is denial ... along with a hefty dose of projection. It's all 'their' fault for evilly trying to make him feel threatened with their 'lies' and 'panic'.


I have zero anxiety about the pandemic, and have since day one.



Quote:


But enough about Jack.



Yes. I agree. You should stop obsessing over me.



--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, October 1, 2021 8:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

This Is A Game-Changer" - Merck Releasing "Phenomenal" Test Results For Experimental COVID Pill
Friday, Oct 01, 2021 - 07:45 AM

Looks like Merck just beat Pfizer to the punch.

Merck announced Friday that an experimental COVID pill it has developed reduced hospitalizations and deaths by 50% in people recently infected with COVID.

The company will soon ask health officials in the US and abroad to authorize use of the drug.

The news came as a welcome surprise to the public, although COVID cases are already waning in the US and in hard-hit economies in Asia, the drug could create "a real therapeutic advance" that could dramatically decrease the risk of death from COVID.

If approved (and odds are it will be) the drug would be the first treatment for COVID. Some compared it to tamiflu, in that patients should take it within 5 days of COVID infection (like those infected with the flu are instructed to take tamiflu early).

Former FDA Director Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC that the trial results are clearly "profoundly" positive, even though researchers decided to stop the trial early because the drug showed significant success, meaning it would be unethical to keep giving patients placebos. To test the drug, they needed to test more than 700 unvaccinated people in a global study. The people were all considered in the "high risk" category due to factors like age, and other characteristics from their "health profile".

Per the results, 7% of volunteers in the group that received the drug were hospitalized, and none of them died, compared with a 14% rate of hospitalization and death (include eight who died) in the placebo group.

According to Dr. Gottlieb, "this is a phenomenal result. This is a profound game-changer that we have an oral pill that had this kind of effect on patients who are already symptomatic."

Dr. Gottlieb also pointed out that the team that developed the drug "also invented the first successful antibody against ebola so this is a very good drug-development team."

"And remember we have two other drugs in development one by Pfizer (where Dr. Gottlieb serves on the board) and the other by Roches," he said.

Patients won't be taking the drug for very long, typically around five days, which means "the safety profile is probably pretty good," Dr. Gottlieb said.

Per the NYT, "the Merck pill’s efficacy was lower than that of monoclonal antibody treatments, which mimic antibodies that the immune system generates naturally when fighting the virus. Those drugs have been in high demand recently, but they are expensive, are typically given intravenously, and have proved cumbersome and labor-intensive for hospitals and clinics to administer. Studies have shown that they reduce hospitalizations and deaths 70 to 85 percent in similar high-risk Covid patients."

The Merck drug is significantly chemically different from the Pfizer drug that's in its final round of studies, which means there's the possibility of creating a cocktail of anti-viral treatments for COVID. Merck has said it can produce 10MM pills by the end of this year, and Dr. Gottlieb said he expects they'll ramp up production quickly by partnering with other companies.

Merck partnered with a small firm called Ridgeback Biotherapeutics to develop the drug, which is called Molnupiravir. While the study results haven't yet been peer reviewed, at least one independent group of medical experts have given the research their blessing.

"This is a milestone in the fight against COVID," Dr. Gottlieb said.

So, is the prospect of a return to "normality" really on the table? I suppose we're about to find out.


https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/game-changer-merck-releasing-phenome
nal-test-results-experimental-covid-pill



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 12:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Oh, I was going to post that! Never mind!

Here's another version of the same story

The trial enrolled people who had newly tested positive for a SARS-CoV-2 infection and had onset of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms within just the past five days of starting the trial. The enrollees also had to have at least one risk factor for a poor outcome, such as having obesity, diabetes, heart disease, or being age 60 or above. While some participants received a placebo and standard care, others took an oral dose of the drug every 12 hours for five days.

After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died. Among those who received the drug, only 28 of 385 were hospitalized and none of those patients died.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/meet-molnupiravir-mercks-thor-
inspired-pill-that-hammers-covid
/

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 12:15 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Sounds like state-funded murder to me.

There's a lot of people with diabetes and who are fat or have other health issues that aren't dying. Then this huge group comes together and they murder a bunch of them for Science.

Labrats, only with half the brains.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 8:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Unfortunately that's the way studies have to be done. In order to see if a treatment does any good you need one group who receives the "standard of care" (control) and the other group who receives the new treatment. The "gold standard" is whar they call "double blind", in which the control group gets a placebo (in this case, that would be a lookalike pill) where neither the control group nor the medical staf know who is getting what. That prevemts unsonscious bias from either the patients or the medical staff from creepong in and affecting either the actions or evaluations of the staff.

But whether theyre doing randomized, double-blind or "open" studies, they have to enroll patients under "informed consent". They don't just randomly pick and choose.

I was recently offerred the option of being in two clinical trials (one randomized, one open). I declined both.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 9:01 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Unfortunately that's the way studies have to be done. In order to see if a treatment does any good you need one group who receives the "standard of care" (control) and the other group who receives the new treatment. The "gold standard" is whar they call "double blind", in which the control group gets a placebo (in this case, that would be a lookalike pill) where neither the control group nor the medical staf know who is getting what. That prevemts unsonscious bias from either the patients or the medical staff from creepong in and affecting either the actions or evaluations of the staff.

But whether theyre doing randomized, double-blind or "open" studies, they have to enroll patients under "informed consent". They don't just randomly pick and choose.



21% of Americans are functionally illiterate. How many of these people were? Did they all have lawyers with them when the signed the release forms? Because of the 69% that are just above functionally illiterate or better, most of them have no idea how to read fine print legalese gobbledygook either.

These people were murdered without their knowledge or legitimate consent.

Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God. ~From the Modern Hippocratic Oath, Louis Lasagna

Quote:

I was recently offerred the option of being in two clinical trials (one randomized, one open). I declined both.



Of course. You're not an idiot. You didn't even need to read the lawyerspeak to know it was a bad idea.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 9:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I can't speak for all, or most Americans, I can only speak for myself.

There are reasons NOT to take part in clinical trials, just as there are reasons to take part in clinical trials.

Some people are paid to join. Some people are looking for freebie evaluation and treatment for their ailment. Sometimes people join them out of the goodness of their hearts for the advancement of science. Sometimes peple join them as a last desperate gamble to cure an incurable disease.

There are also legitimate reasons to decline. Sometimes people don't want to be in a "placebo" group. Sometimes they feel their best option is with the current standard of care, or that the new treatment presents unacceptable risk of side effects.

It's a legitimate choice that offers both reward and risk either way. However it happens, that's how treatment is advanced.

Another way is what they call "off-label" use of a currently-approved drug. When faced with (a) patient(s) with a novel disease, desperate doctors sometimes try the "shotgun" approach and try different things. Occasionally they hit on something that works, so they write up a "Case study" report. enuf accumulated successful case studies, and other doctors start to rely on that treatment plan.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 9:53 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


None of that changes the fact that they were murdered for Science.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 11:55 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Some people are looking for freebie evaluation and treatment for their ailment.

Some people participle just to get any care at all, because otherwise they wouldn't have any.
Quote:

Sometimes people join them out of the goodness of their hearts for the advancement of science.
I've done that, though it wasn't life or death - but, unexpectedly to me, at the start they did confirm my level of ADHD which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Quote:

Sometimes people join them as a last desperate gamble to cure an incurable disease.
Many people join for that reason. In fact, for people with incurable diseases, it's recommended. At the very least they'll get the kind of specialized medical care they would have gotten anyway from people who specialize in their disease. Then there's the equivocal in-between. And at best they get a shot at something new and potentially life extending, maybe even life saving.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 12:19 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


So we're either pretending that they weren't murdered for Science, or we're perfectly fine with the fact.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 1:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
So we're either pretending that they weren't murdered for Science, or we're perfectly fine with the fact.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

The benefits and risks are explained in layman's terms, and the patient makes a choice.

I can't explain why people makes the choices they do. Maybe some of them believed, as you do, that "people don't die of Covid". Maybe some of them were as paranoid about an experimental pill as you are about an "unapproved" mRNA vaccine.

But you do realize that you just admitted that people do, indeed, die of Covid. Right?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 4:46 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
So we're either pretending that they weren't murdered for Science, or we're perfectly fine with the fact.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

The benefits and risks are explained in layman's terms, and the patient makes a choice.

I can't explain why people makes the choices they do. Maybe some of them believed, as you do, that "people don't die of Covid". Maybe some of them were as paranoid about an experimental pill as you are about an "unapproved" mRNA vaccine.

But you do realize that you just admitted that people do, indeed, die of Covid. Right?



I was wondering how long you were going to take to say that.

I did no such thing.

If the "medical staff" have no knowledge of who's getting the placebo and who is not, it stands to reason that they have no knowledge of what was in any of the pills that they were handing out (other than what they were told were in them).

They are little more than automatons in a process that could be done by computers and are simply there to be wearing lab coats and looking professional without making modern medicine look as automated as a car manufacturing assembly line. Most of their jobs are no less superfluous than checkout register attendees if it weren't for the fact that people aren't yet comfortable with computers dolling out their pills instead of a human.

The "placebos", or at least a good portion of them were poison intended to kill the victims and give the desired results.

These dumb assholes who can't read were murdered, and the "medical staff" involved were unwitting accomplices that didn't even need to be there outside of the need for security theater.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 4:53 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


P.S. Even in the fake news on the subject, you've got a 99.6% chance of surviving Covid without a vaccine.

This test just happened to magically stumble on a whole ton of people who were going to die of Covid and give a ridiculous percentage of deaths in the study to prove that they died because they only had a placebo.

Will you listen to yourself? You're not this stupid.

--------------------------------------------------

Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 5:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, you are saying that the people who put these studies together are deliberately poisoning the control group?

Hahaha!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 6:03 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
P.S. Even in the fake news on the subject, you've got a 99.6% chance of surviving Covid without a vaccine.

This test just happened to magically stumble on a whole ton of people who were going to die of Covid and give a ridiculous percentage of deaths in the study to prove that they died because they only had a placebo.

Will you listen to yourself? You're not this stupid.

First, the survival rate is across the ENTIRE POPULATION and includes young healthy people who became infected but did not even develop symptoms.

The infection fatality for men over 80, however, is a full 10 pct. The infection fatality rate for 65-69 is already at 1pct.

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/11/18/covid-infection-fatality-rates-se
x-and-age-15163


The study group was ALREADY symptomatic (mild to moderate) AND had comorbities, so it's entirely consistent that the standard of care of symptomatic, comorbid patients, would produce a 1pct fatality rate.

I don't see what your problem is.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 6:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW, the latest estimate of total infections across the USA is 100 million.

The total number of deaths across the USA Now, a recent article published in Nature offers a more-comprehensive estimate that puts the true number of infections by the end of 2020 at more than 100 million [1]. That’s equal to just under a third of the U.S. population of 328 million
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/09/07/covid-19-infected-many-more-a
mericans-in-2020-than-official-tallies-show
/

The total number of deaths across the USA, according to the MSM, is 700,000. Infection fatality rate 0.7 pct population-wide.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 6:24 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Biden said he will do it different to Trump

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:



The total number of deaths across the USA, according to the MSM, is 700,000. Infection fatality rate 0.7 pct population-wide.



Am I correct in saying this? The Biden Admin has now DOUBLED the Deaths under the Trump Admin??

When Trump was in office say last December and lost an election the numbers were 310,000 + Deaths posted here on fireflyfans, Trump he's out in Jan and the new Biden Admin takes over.


Yet Biden has DOUBLED the Deaths of Trump?
it looked like India or Brazil might pass the USA and yet Biden has seen numbers increase once more.

There are still Tens of Thousands of new cases each week.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, October 2, 2021 7:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Yet Biden has DOUBLED the Deaths of Trump?
That's the nature of anything that grows exponentially, whether it's a fire, a nuclear explosion, or a contagion. One starts out with very low numbers, but the bigger it gets, the faster it grows.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Fri, May 3, 2024 07:14 - 6382 posts
Elections; 2024
Fri, May 3, 2024 06:08 - 2359 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Fri, May 3, 2024 05:52 - 837 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:34 - 1 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:33 - 1 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:31 - 1 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:30 - 1 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:29 - 1 posts
The Young Turks call out Nancy Pelosi for being a "Thug" and a "Hypocrite"
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:28 - 1 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, May 3, 2024 00:26 - 3605 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Thu, May 2, 2024 20:02 - 1031 posts
China
Thu, May 2, 2024 17:09 - 455 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL