REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

new deadly human-to-human-transmissible coronavirus emerges out of China

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Monday, June 1, 2020 18:10
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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 3:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


JSF -

Your list of diseases doesn't exist in people with normal immune systems.

Here's the background: there are sometimes people born with one or more parts of their immune system that's not functional. This has been going on as part of our genetic code and noted for as along as written records exist. What that means is that people with deficient immune systems, who get weird infections and cancers no one else gets, have been known to medicine and studied LONG before HIV/ AIDS came around.

It was the fact that these already-recognized diseases of immune system non-function clustered in a new set of patients that started doctor looking at the immune system to see what was going wrong. And they found out that these people started out with normal immune systems, but then something went wrong later on, and they got the same diseases people born with bad immune systems got. That's what AIDS means - acquired immune deficiency syndrome.

So, the fact is that those very weird, rare diseases of immune deficiency correlate with the presence of HIV - human immunodeficiency virus.

Your other 'causes' - marijuana/cocaine - fail Koch's postulates. Once you isolate what you think is the cause, and introduce it into a healthy individual, it has to reliably cause the disease. Marijuana/cocaine don't cause AIDS. If they did the entire country would be blasted by AIDS just on marijuana use alone! Seriously, just ask Jack if he has AIDS from smoking weed. Marijuana/cocaine fail, completely, as causes of AIDS.

OTOH you can track the well being and health of someone who's HIV positive by looking for 1) the viral load in patient's blood - the higher the load, the more chance they'll progress to AIDS, and 2) the number of T-cells (T - or thymus-derived - lymphocytes, which are cells in the immune system that among other things make antibodies), the lower the number of T-cells, the more likely the person is to progress to AIDS.

The mechanism of how HIV destroys T-lymphocytes has even been worked out.

I hope you can take the time to ponder these facts.



But in sum:
Marijuana/cocaine fail Koch's postulates as causes of AIDS.
Otherwise the very large majority of people in the US who have smoked or do smoke marijuana would have AIDS.

OTOH, you'll not find a single case of AIDS (in genetically normal people) without also finding HIV.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 6:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Short answer: All of the 30+ diseases with their known symptoms and known causes which have, post-1980, been redefined as "AIDS" - even though all of the same exact causes are present, and all of the same exact symptoms are present.

The so-called "AIDS" cases were defined and classed by the "AIDS" advocates to support their AIDS epidemic hysteria, so whatever they used as definition was what was used for the correlation. Since the AIDS hoax was not scientific, it is not like we can retroactively make scientific the illogical diagnosis, they were merely accepted for the criteria of determining correlation.

Somebdy mentioned 2 examples earlier - Kaposi's Sarcoma, and pneumocystis carinii.

I cannot pretend surprise if diarrhea or weight loss were used by AIDS advocates to define their "AIDS" cases, so if that is what the AIDS movement chose to define the cases, then nobody has been able to talk sense into them, then or now.


eta:


WHO’S RECOMMENDED CASE DEFINITION FOR AIDS

Different case definitions are used in different countries, depending on population factors (children, adults, relative occurrence of opportunistic infection) and on the laboratory infrastructure and training available. Current most used case definitions include for countries with... more sophisticated laboratory facilities
CDC 1987 (1)
CDC/CD4 (2)
European (3)

limited laboratory facilities
Abidjan/WHO (4)
Bangui/WHO (clinical) (5)
Caracas/PAHO (6) revised Caracas/PAHO (7)

1. 1987 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION SURVEILLANCE DEFINITION FOR AIDS

Without laboratory evidence of HIV infection (in the absence of other causes of immune suppression)

Indicator disease diagnosed definitively
Candidiasis of the oesophagus, trachea, bronchi, or lungs
Cryptococcosis, extrapulmonary
Cryptosporidiosis with diarrhoea persisting > 1 month
Cytomegalovirus diseases of an organ other than liver spleen, or lymph nodes in a patient >1 month of age
Herpes simplex virus infection causing a mucocutaneous ulcer persisting > 1 month; or bronchitis, pneumonitis, or
oesophagitis for any duration in a patient > 1 month of age
Kaposi’ s sarcoma in a patient < 60 years of age
Lymphoma of the brain(primary) affecting a patient < 60 years of age
Mycobacterium avuim complex or M .kansasii disease, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to
lungs, skin, or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia
Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy
Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient > 1 month of age

With laboratory evidence of HIV infection
Indicator diseases diagnosed definitively
Coccidiomycosis, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
HIV encephalopathy
Histoplasmosis, disseminated(at a sit other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
Isosporiasis with diarrhoea persisting > 1 month
Kaposi’ s sarcoma at any age
Lymphoma of the brain (primary ) at any age
Non-Hodgkin’ s lymphoma
Any mycobacterial disease caused by mycobacteria other than M. tuberculosis, disseminated
Disease caused by M. tuberculosis, extrapulmonary
Salmonella (non-typhoid ) septicaemia, recurrent
HIV wasting syndrome
Indicator diseases diagnosed presumptively
Candidiasis of the oesophagus
Cytomegalovirus retinitis with loss of vision
Kaposi’ s sarcoma
Mycobacterial disease, disseminated
Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia
Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient> 1 month of age

2. CONDITIONS* ADDED TO THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 1993 SURVEILLANCE DEFINITION FOR AIDS (WITH LABORATORY EVIDENCE OF HIV INFECTION in addition to those in the 1987 surveillance definition:

Source: WHO Recommended Surveillance Standards.
(Geneva: World Health Organization, WHO/EMC/DIS/97.1, 1997).
See http://www.who.int/emc

Centers for Disease Control, United States

The dominant definition currently is that developed by the Centers for Disease Control in the United States. It offers the following summary definition (at http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/hiv_aids/pubs/faq/faq2.htm):

AIDS stands for acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. An HIV-infected person receives a diagnosis of AIDS after developing one of the CDC-defined AIDS indicator illnesses. An HIV-positive person who has not had any serious illnesses also can receive an AIDS diagnosis on the basis of certain blood tests (CD4+ counts).

A positive HIV test result does not mean that a person has AIDS. A diagnosis of AIDS is made by a physician using certain clinical criteria (e.g., AIDS indicator illnesses).


So, JSF ... you claimed a 92% correlation bewteen marijuana/cocaine and ... something.

The "AIDS" cases. The cases diagnosed as AIDS.



Baloney.

If that were the case, then anyone who smoked weed or got high on cocaine would be getting any number of rare infections. Especially since, in your view, there is a "92%" correlation. Since that's not the case, that idea falls flat on its face.

Next?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In the realm of "never let a good crisis go to waste"


Quote:

Dirty banknotes may be spreading the coronavirus, World Health Organization suggests

**People have been warned to wash their hands after using banknotes - and if possible to use contactless payments instead**

Banknotes may be spreading the new coronavirus so people should try to use contactless payments instead, the World Health Organization has said.

Customers should wash their hands after touching banknotes because infectious Covid-19 may cling to the surface for a number of days, the UN agency said on Monday night. To prevent the spread of the disease, people should use contactless technology where possible, a spokesperson added.

The Bank of England has acknowledged that banknotes "can carry bacteria or viruses" and urged people to wash their hands regularly. It comes after both China and Korea last month began disinfecting and isolating used banknotes as part of their efforts to stop the spread of the virus. Officials used ultraviolet light or high temperatures to sterilise the bills, only putting them back into circulation after they had been sealed and stored for up to 14 days.

A source at the Bank of England insisted there were no plans to do the same in the UK. However the World Health Organization said the British public should exercise care when handling potentially infectious banknotes. Asked whether banknotes could be spreading coronavirus, a WHO spokesman replied: "Yes it’s possible and it’s a good question. We know that money changes hands frequently and can pick up all sorts of bacteria and viruses and things like that.

"We would advise people to wash their hands after handling banknotes, and avoid touching their face. "When possible it’s a good idea to use contactless payments."

Exactly how long the new coronavirus can survive outside the human body has not yet been proven. An analysis of 22 earlier studies of similar coronaviruses, including Severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (Mers) published online this month in the Journal of Hospital Infection, concluded that human coronaviruses can remain infectious on inanimate surfaces for up to nine days at room temperature.

However, they can quickly be rendered inactive by the use of common disinfectants, and may also dissipate at higher temperatures, the authors wrote. It is not yet clear, however, whether the new coronavirus behaves in a similar way.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/02/exclusive-dirty-banknotes-
may-spreading-coronavirus-world-health
/

Well! The WHO tells us not to use banknotes, but STILL refuses to call this a "pandemic"? Considering that some disease-fighting funds can't be released UNTIL the WHO declares a pandemic, which do you suppose might be more effective in fighting the spread of coronavirus ... having the WHO tell us to "launder money", or actually declaring a pandemic?

I see the hand of banks behind both: They have been trying to discourage cash for at least five years (because they have complete tracking and control over digital transfers, unlike cash money which evades government taxes, law enforcement, AND the banks!) AND there are those pandemic bonds! Shame on Tedros.

EVERY CRISIS has a silver lining ... for someone! Especially if they can spin the crisis in their favor.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:25 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In the realm of "never let a good crisis go to waste"


Quote:

Dirty banknotes may be spreading the coronavirus, World Health Organization suggests

**People have been warned to wash their hands after using banknotes - and if possible to use contactless payments instead**

Banknotes may be spreading the new coronavirus so people should try to use contactless payments instead, the World Health Organization has said.

Customers should wash their hands after touching banknotes because infectious Covid-19 may cling to the surface for a number of days, the UN agency said on Monday night. To prevent the spread of the disease, people should use contactless technology where possible, a spokesperson added.

The Bank of England has acknowledged that banknotes "can carry bacteria or viruses" and urged people to wash their hands regularly. It comes after both China and Korea last month began disinfecting and isolating used banknotes as part of their efforts to stop the spread of the virus. Officials used ultraviolet light or high temperatures to sterilise the bills, only putting them back into circulation after they had been sealed and stored for up to 14 days.

A source at the Bank of England insisted there were no plans to do the same in the UK. However the World Health Organization said the British public should exercise care when handling potentially infectious banknotes. Asked whether banknotes could be spreading coronavirus, a WHO spokesman replied: "Yes it’s possible and it’s a good question. We know that money changes hands frequently and can pick up all sorts of bacteria and viruses and things like that.

"We would advise people to wash their hands after handling banknotes, and avoid touching their face. "When possible it’s a good idea to use contactless payments."

Exactly how long the new coronavirus can survive outside the human body has not yet been proven. An analysis of 22 earlier studies of similar coronaviruses, including Severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (Mers) published online this month in the Journal of Hospital Infection, concluded that human coronaviruses can remain infectious on inanimate surfaces for up to nine days at room temperature.

However, they can quickly be rendered inactive by the use of common disinfectants, and may also dissipate at higher temperatures, the authors wrote. It is not yet clear, however, whether the new coronavirus behaves in a similar way.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/02/exclusive-dirty-banknotes-
may-spreading-coronavirus-world-health
/

Well! The WHO tells us not to use banknotes, but STILL refuses to call this a "pandemic"? Considering that some disease-fighting funds can't be released UNTIL the WHO declares a pandemic, which do you suppose might be more effective in fighting the spread of coronavirus ... having the WHO tell us to "launder money", or actually declaring a pandemic?

I see the hand of banks behind both: They have been trying to discourage cash for at least five years (because they have complete tracking and control over digital transfers, unlike cash money which evades government taxes, law enforcement, AND the banks!) AND there are those pandemic bonds! Shame on Tedros.

EVERY CRISIS has a silver lining ... for someone! Especially if they can spin the crisis in their favor.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!




So I will now be doing what I can to remove myself from digital currency and only use cash in the future.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 9:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/04/health/us-coronavirus-update-wednes
day/index.html

Any American with a doctor's order can now be tested


But will your insurance cover it, or will you foot the bill?
Quote:

The number of US cases has continued to rise since health officials allowed more labs to conduct tests for the virus.
That's a complete surprise! (not)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:09 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I've been waiting for this shoe to drop ...
Quote:

Los Angeles County officials on Wednesday declared a state of emergency as they confirmed six new cases of novel coronavirus in the county.
The county Board of Supervisors and Department of Public Health made the announcement alongside L.A. Mayor Eric Garcetti and public health officials from Long Beach and Pasadena, which both have their own public health department.

County Supervisors and the Los Angeles City Council are both expected to hear reports during their Wednesday meetings about the status of the illness locally.

The county's second case

But what about cases three thru six?
Quote:

of COVID-19 was confirmed on Tuesday by Kaiser Permanente who is overseeing the care of the patient, currently in self-isolation and being treated as an outpatient, a spokesperson said. Additional details regarding the case were not available.


LA County might be at the case/case/case/cluster/cluster/BOOM! part of the exponential part of the curve.

LA County is very large. Does it mean anything that the Mayor of LA was flanked by Public Health officials of Pasadena and Long Beach? (We worked with LB Public Health lab on a toxic risk, I was VERY impressed with the dedication of the doctor who testified and helped us close down a facility.)

I guess I don't feel like a total idiot making such a fashion-forward statement wearing a mask! Also, withdrawing dear daughter from her gym-based exercise program. We need to beef up our hand/item sanitizing protocol at home because things are crossing the "clean/dirty" line that need to addressed.

But even with all of these precautions, I believe that we will all get sick, sooner or later.



-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

We need to beef up our hand/item sanitizing protocol at home because things are crossing the "clean/dirty" line that need to addressed.
I've been looking at how to care for a sick person with coronavirus as instructive for how to avoid it in a contaminated or potentially contaminated environment. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/home/cleaning-disi
nfection.html


The relevant parts are:
"Household members should clean hands often, including immediately after removing gloves and after contact with an ill person, by washing hands with soap and water for 20 seconds. If soap and water are not available and hands are not visibly dirty, an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol may be used. However, if hands are visibly dirty, always wash hands with soap and water." You're not going to wear gloves while going grocery shopping! But sanitizing your hands when you get home seems appropriate.
"Household members should follow normal preventive actions while at work and home including recommended hand hygiene and avoiding touching eyes, nose, or mouth with unwashed hands." So wearing a mask when out and about, to remind you to not touch your face, seems useful.

There are things you bring in directly from the outside, groceries and money come to mind. I don't think groceries, like cans, bags, or boxes have a high likelihood of being contaminated. Money might be just because it's been through many, many hands; but if you're not handling it at home, it shouldn't be a problem. If you DO handle it at home, simply wash or sanitize your hands afterwards.

I suggest sanitizing your phone (wipes) and wallet (if its non-porous) and its closures (wipes or hand san), and perhaps a leather purse-strap (wipes or hand san) when you get home, simply because you touch those things many times outside of the house.

So masks outside and hand sanitizer at the home entry are good.

If SARS-COV-2 is similar to other coronaviruses, it can last as long as 8 days ON NON-POROUS SURFACES under ordinary conditions. But porous surfaces are another matter entirely! I wouldn't worry about any of your stuff that doesn't directly come from outside the outside, with the exception of things you touch often - phone, wallet, purse-strap; and wash or sanitize your hands after you handle money in the house.

IN SUM: the things you have to worry about are: 1) touching your face with contaminated hands, which makes wearing a mask outside the house an excellent reminder; 2) hands that get contaminated outside the house, which makes hand sanitizer at the entry an excellent!!! preventative; 3) things that come directly into the house from the outside; which means washing your hands after you handle money in the house a good preventative. Cleaning cell phones, wallets and purse straps are additional precautions - because you touch those things OFTEN outside of the house then inside of the house.


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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


I've heard new numbers for the virus fatality rate are extremely low.

0% fatality rate for those under 10.
.2% fatality rate for those under 40.
.4% fatality rate for those under 50.

It gets a little higher from there, but not even on the level of the common flu.

Has anybody else heard this? I didn't read it. Heard it from a family member.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Nobody really knows! To know, they'd have to know how many people have the virus - which they don't, because the testing's been extremely limited. And then they'd have to accurately diagnose how many people died from it postmortem.

I don't think anyone has those numbers.

But - bummer - there's indication that the reason why so many who died in China have been males, while females have been spared, is because so many males smoke, while females don't.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think I have the answer for our cloth bag-handles: 70 pct IPA spray. (They say that water helps the alcohol penetrate the virus surface; which makes sense bc the proteins have to "unpack" a little before they're active, and they "unpack" with water.) I know that some say that porous surfaces are not a concern, but Chris Martensen's video has a chart of various surfaces showing long-lasting recoverability from paper. Roughly 5 days cooling-off for anything should reduce the contamination.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:18 PM

BRENDA


JACK, I just want to backtrack for a minute.

After a the last couple of pages in this thread by your logic of NOT believing that AIDS/HIV is real or the Novel Corona Virus.

Then I guess every epidemic that has happened to humanity through history have been hoaxes too.

Like the Black Death that swept through Europe in the 14th Century and later. It killed almost half the population of Europe. I guess that was the churches making it all up. And the plague pits that are still accidentally found around London and sometimes Paris aren't real and the bones they find aren't real either.

Coming farther forward then small pox outbreaks in Europe weren't real either before Europeans bringing it to North America.

The pox infected blankets that were given to Native American villages that wiped the people out because we didn't have an immunity to it. Or those who were so sick and in pain, they went back to white towns and rubbed their bodies on the buildings thinking they could give the disease back to the White Man.

Moving along I suppose Typhoid Mary wasn't a real person. She was a carrier but didn't show any signs of the disease until near the end of her life. But she left death in her wake everywhere she worked.

Further still the Spanish Flu of 1918 after WWI.

Further still more small pox outbreaks in the US, measles and another big one polio that crippled hundreds of children. FDR was a victim of that one.

I guess dirty water doesn't carry disease in it.


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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think I have the answer for our cloth bag-handles: 70 pct IPA spray. (They say that water helps the alcohol penetrate the virus surface; which makes sense bc the proteins have to "unpack" a little before they're active, and they "unpack" with water.) I know that some say that porous surfaces are not a concern, but Chris Martensen's video has a chart of various surfaces showing long-lasting recoverability from paper. Roughly 5 days cooling-off for anything should reduce the contamination.

I'm pretty careful and even I'M not going that far! The source of contamination on say grocery bag handles is too indirect (hands that may have touched something touch the handles) imo to be of concern.

But MONEY may have been directly contaminated, which makes that concern far more direct.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:24 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I've heard new numbers for the virus fatality rate are extremely low.

0% fatality rate for those under 10.
.2% fatality rate for those under 40.
.4% fatality rate for those under 50.

It gets a little higher from there, but not even on the level of the common flu.

Has anybody else heard this? I didn't read it. Heard it from a family member.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

The widely quoted average case-fatality rate for the common flu is 0.08%. The widely-quoted average case-fatality rate for the Wuhan flu is 2% ... roughly 20X higher than the normal flu (altho it has been recently recalculated at 3.5% based on ex-China experience.)

It didn't get "a little" higher, it got A LOT higher with age: 15% for 80+, 8% for 70-79, 4% for 60-69, 8% for people with heart conditions and 7% for people with diabetes
https://i.insider.com/5e583c47fee23d4cf4755b27?width=1300&format=j
peg&auto=webp

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-death-age-older-people-hig
her-risk-2020-2?op=1


The only way that they can get a better number for the Wuhan flu is by literally doing random testing to determine what percent of the population has it, and with the shortage of test kits/ test facilities they are saving those for people who are seriously ill ... which skews the sampling and increases the apparent case-fatality rate. So, back to what KIKI said: nobody really knows.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-04/los-angeles-county
-declares-coronavirus-emergency-6-new-cases


None of the new cases are connected to “community spread,” officials said. All individuals were exposed to COVID-19 through close contacts.

Officials said three of the new cases were travelers who had visited northern Italy, two were family members who had close contact with someone outside of the county who was infected, and one had a job that put them in contact with travelers.
Just a comment - but in the absence of community testing, they really can't say anything definitive either about community spread or where these cases really came from.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 1:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Just to follow up because I added this later:


IN SUM: the things you have to worry about are: 1) touching your face with contaminated hands, which makes wearing a mask outside the house an excellent reminder; 2) hands that get contaminated outside the house, which makes hand sanitizer at the entry an excellent!!! preventative; 3) things that come directly into the house from the outside; which means washing your hands after you handle money in the house a good preventative. Cleaning cell phones, wallets and purse straps are additional precautions - because you touch those things OFTEN outside of the house then inside of the house.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 3:53 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
JACK, I just want to backtrack for a minute.

After a the last couple of pages in this thread by your logic of NOT believing that AIDS/HIV is real or the Novel Corona Virus.

Then I guess every epidemic that has happened to humanity through history have been hoaxes too.

Like the Black Death that swept through Europe in the 14th Century and later. It killed almost half the population of Europe. I guess that was the churches making it all up. And the plague pits that are still accidentally found around London and sometimes Paris aren't real and the bones they find aren't real either.

Coming farther forward then small pox outbreaks in Europe weren't real either before Europeans bringing it to North America.

The pox infected blankets that were given to Native American villages that wiped the people out because we didn't have an immunity to it. Or those who were so sick and in pain, they went back to white towns and rubbed their bodies on the buildings thinking they could give the disease back to the White Man.

Moving along I suppose Typhoid Mary wasn't a real person. She was a carrier but didn't show any signs of the disease until near the end of her life. But she left death in her wake everywhere she worked.

Further still the Spanish Flu of 1918 after WWI.

Further still more small pox outbreaks in the US, measles and another big one polio that crippled hundreds of children. FDR was a victim of that one.

I guess dirty water doesn't carry disease in it.





No. There were diseases and lillnesses that were real. AIDS just isn't one of them.

I'm not denying that Corona virus exists. Just saying that it's not scary.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:43 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I can't believe this. SOMEbody must be punking us.


38% Of People In Survey Are Avoiding Corona Beer Due To Coronavirus
https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/americans-avoiding-corona-beer-a
mid-coronavirus-outbreak-survey/

You've never heard of smart phones and corrupted search engines? You've forgotten that google is smarter than anybody carrying a smartphone? They cannot be bothered to think.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:46 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Where is your EVIDENCE? Bring your cites and links here, so we can discuss them, because everything I have read says otherwise.

In order to meet the criteria that the HIV virus causes disease, it meets the following criteria:

Meaning the following 4 pillars are equally loaded, and the failure of any one pillar collapses the premise/hypothesis/belief.
Quote:


1. The presence of the virus is correlated with the disease.

Here you are tiptoeing carefully round the facts. I don't have my books or references handy right now, so I must recall what I can. Of the correlations of "the disease" (meaning the symptom package), the presence of the HIV Antibody ranks 3rd, with around 80% correlation among those not subjected to "AIDS Medications" (aka Drugs). The 2 correlations which are greater are one at about mid-80's and the other about 92%. I forget the order of the 2, but the correlations are for Marijuana Abuse, and for Cocaine Use/Abuse. Not the greatest or most convincing argument for any virus causing any "desease" - although in reasearch, correlation is a useful clue.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Quote:

2. While not everyone who has the virus has the symptoms, everone who has the symptoms has the virus.
This is not true. If it were true, then far more folk would have less reason to dispute the premise. Not all who have the symptoms have the HIV Antibody (which is the "test for HIV"). Since the 1920s or 1930s, many thousands of those who have had the symptoms did not have the HIV Antibody (known) although they did still have the known causes of these symptoms - just like these "AIDS" cases continue to have the same known causes, known and listed in DSM-IV since the 1950's.
Quote:

3. Those who previously did not have the virus (demonstrated) later acquire both symptoms and virus after exposure.
This is not true. For groups who were "exposed" and tested positive for the HIV Antibody, and then LEFT UNTREATED for decades, symptoms and "disease" never presented and they had normally healthy lives.
Quote:

4. Focusing treatment on the virus (with anti-retrovirals and other anti-virals) reduces both symptoms and assayed viral load.

So, of the 4 required pillars (as you stated), 3 are failures, so your premise collapses. As does your denomination/sect of your AIDS Religion.
Quote:


It seems to me that the person with th religion is you, so bring your arguments forth and we can discuss them.

*****

Now, I'm well aware that there are many "diseases" that aren't caused by germs: Heart disease. Nutritional deficiencies like pellagra disease. Rhuematoid arthritis and other autoimmune "dieases". Genetic and mitochondrial diseases.

Still, you can't dismiss the "germ theory of disease" in relationship to AIDS. Well, maybe YOU can, but you shouldn't.

To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

If you are looking for information to enlighten yourself, I noticed virusmyth.com - which I had not seen before, but I recognize many of the authors.

Again:

To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


JSF - I posted a whole bunch of facts for you including links to research showing HIV is the cause of AIDS. If you wish to continue to ignore/ deny facts, I'm just letting you know the only person who ends up looking like an idiot is you.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
JSF -

Your list of diseases doesn't exist in people with normal immune systems.

Here's the background: there are sometimes people born with one or more parts of their immune system that's not functional. This has been going on as part of our genetic code and noted for as along as written records exist. What that means is that people with deficient immune systems, who get weird infections and cancers no one else gets, have been known to medicine and studied LONG before HIV/ AIDS came around.

It was the fact that these already-recognized diseases of immune system non-function clustered in a new set of patients that started doctor looking at the immune system to see what was going wrong. And they found out that these people started out with normal immune systems, but then something went wrong later on, and they got the same diseases people born with bad immune systems got. That's what AIDS means - acquired immune deficiency syndrome.

So, the fact is that those very weird, rare diseases of immune deficiency correlate with the presence of HIV - human immunodeficiency virus.

Your other 'causes' - marijuana/cocaine - fail Koch's postulates. Once you isolate what you think is the cause, and introduce it into a healthy individual, it has to reliably cause the disease. Marijuana/cocaine don't cause AIDS. If they did the entire country would be blasted by AIDS just on marijuana use alone! Seriously, just ask Jack if he has AIDS from smoking weed. Marijuana/cocaine fail, completely, as causes of AIDS.

OTOH you can track the well being and health of someone who's HIV positive by looking for 1) the viral load in patient's blood - the higher the load, the more chance they'll progress to AIDS, and 2) the number of T-cells (T - or thymus-derived - lymphocytes, which are cells in the immune system that among other things make antibodies), the lower the number of T-cells, the more likely the person is to progress to AIDS.

The mechanism of how HIV destroys T-lymphocytes has even been worked out.

I hope you can take the time to ponder these facts.



But in sum:
Marijuana/cocaine fail Koch's postulates as causes of AIDS.
Otherwise the very large majority of people in the US who have smoked or do smoke marijuana would have AIDS.

OTOH, you'll not find a single case of AIDS (in genetically normal people) without also finding HIV.

Well now, lots of lies in that post, but the final lies seems quite blatant.

You will not find HIV in any living person, right? HIV in humans is only found in dead people, who could not produce the Antibody. In order to prove that the person has "immuno-deficiency" the only test is used to prove the immune system is working and functional - by testing for the presence of the HIV Antibody, the product of the working immune system.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:



To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

Your very first response JSF was something about some sort of correlation, which YOU claimed was at 92%. (oh btw that would be 0.92, not percent.) You have to show what you're correlating to what (Kaposi's sarcoma correlated to cocaine use?) first, and provide that data behind that correlation. It seems to be central to your opinion that AIDS isn't caused by the HIV, and I'm not going to "move the discussion along" at your convenience because you want to skip past that point.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 4:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You will not find HIV in any living person, right? HIV in humans is only found in dead people, who could not produce the Antibody. In order to prove that the person has "immuno-deficiency" the only test is used to prove the immune system is working and functional - by testing for the presence of the HIV Antibody, the product of the working immune system.
WTF?? OF COURSE you find HIV in living people! That's what "viral load" means.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:08 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Short answer: All of the 30+ diseases with their known symptoms and known causes which have, post-1980, been redefined as "AIDS" - even though all of the same exact causes are present, and all of the same exact symptoms are present.

The so-called "AIDS" cases were defined and classed by the "AIDS" advocates to support their AIDS epidemic hysteria, so whatever they used as definition was what was used for the correlation. Since the AIDS hoax was not scientific, it is not like we can retroactively make scientific the illogical diagnosis, they were merely accepted for the criteria of determining correlation.

Somebdy mentioned 2 examples earlier - Kaposi's Sarcoma, and pneumocystis carinii.

I cannot pretend surprise if diarrhea or weight loss were used by AIDS advocates to define their "AIDS" cases, so if that is what the AIDS movement chose to define the cases, then nobody has been able to talk sense into them, then or now.


eta:


WHO’S RECOMMENDED CASE DEFINITION FOR AIDS

Different case definitions are used in different countries, depending on population factors (children, adults, relative occurrence of opportunistic infection) and on the laboratory infrastructure and training available. Current most used case definitions include for countries with... more sophisticated laboratory facilities
CDC 1987 (1)
CDC/CD4 (2)
European (3)

limited laboratory facilities
Abidjan/WHO (4)
Bangui/WHO (clinical) (5)
Caracas/PAHO (6) revised Caracas/PAHO (7)

1. 1987 CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION SURVEILLANCE DEFINITION FOR AIDS

Without laboratory evidence of HIV infection (in the absence of other causes of immune suppression)

Indicator disease diagnosed definitively
Candidiasis of the oesophagus, trachea, bronchi, or lungs
Cryptococcosis, extrapulmonary
Cryptosporidiosis with diarrhoea persisting > 1 month
Cytomegalovirus diseases of an organ other than liver spleen, or lymph nodes in a patient >1 month of age
Herpes simplex virus infection causing a mucocutaneous ulcer persisting > 1 month; or bronchitis, pneumonitis, or
oesophagitis for any duration in a patient > 1 month of age
Kaposi’ s sarcoma in a patient < 60 years of age
Lymphoma of the brain(primary) affecting a patient < 60 years of age
Mycobacterium avuim complex or M .kansasii disease, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to
lungs, skin, or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia
Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy
Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient > 1 month of age

With laboratory evidence of HIV infection
Indicator diseases diagnosed definitively
Coccidiomycosis, disseminated (at a site other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
HIV encephalopathy
Histoplasmosis, disseminated(at a sit other than or in addition to lungs or cervical or hilar lymph nodes)
Isosporiasis with diarrhoea persisting > 1 month
Kaposi’ s sarcoma at any age
Lymphoma of the brain (primary ) at any age
Non-Hodgkin’ s lymphoma
Any mycobacterial disease caused by mycobacteria other than M. tuberculosis, disseminated
Disease caused by M. tuberculosis, extrapulmonary
Salmonella (non-typhoid ) septicaemia, recurrent
HIV wasting syndrome
Indicator diseases diagnosed presumptively
Candidiasis of the oesophagus
Cytomegalovirus retinitis with loss of vision
Kaposi’ s sarcoma
Mycobacterial disease, disseminated
Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia
Toxoplasmosis of the brain in a patient> 1 month of age

2. CONDITIONS* ADDED TO THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION 1993 SURVEILLANCE DEFINITION FOR AIDS (WITH LABORATORY EVIDENCE OF HIV INFECTION in addition to those in the 1987 surveillance definition:

Source: WHO Recommended Surveillance Standards.
(Geneva: World Health Organization, WHO/EMC/DIS/97.1, 1997).
See http://www.who.int/emc

Centers for Disease Control, United States

The dominant definition currently is that developed by the Centers for Disease Control in the United States. It offers the following summary definition (at http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/hiv_aids/pubs/faq/faq2.htm):

AIDS stands for acquired immunodeficiency syndrome. An HIV-infected person receives a diagnosis of AIDS after developing one of the CDC-defined AIDS indicator illnesses. An HIV-positive person who has not had any serious illnesses also can receive an AIDS diagnosis on the basis of certain blood tests (CD4+ counts).

A positive HIV test result does not mean that a person has AIDS. A diagnosis of AIDS is made by a physician using certain clinical criteria (e.g., AIDS indicator illnesses).


So, JSF ... you claimed a 92% correlation bewteen marijuana/cocaine and ... something.

The "AIDS" cases. The cases diagnosed as AIDS.

Baloney.

If that were the case, then anyone who smoked weed or got high on cocaine would be getting any number of rare infections. Especially since, in your view, there is a "92%" correlation. Since that's not the case, that idea falls flat on its face.

Next?

Do you not understand correlation?
Do you believe that correlation = causation?

Perhaps think of correlations as overlapping subsets of the human set. The small subset of AIDS can be checked for overlapping humans who also are included in the subsets of cocaine abusers, pot abusers, or HIV+ (meaning that they possess the HIV Antibody, which was produced by a working and functional Immune System). With correlations of more than mid-80s percents for pot and cocaine, why would you latch onto the 3rd highest correlation (HIV+), with less correlation than the other 2?

Also, rampant unabated and pervasive abuse of pot or abuse of cocaine are not the same as merely "smoked" or "got high" - although the delineation between the 2 categories is getting thinner.


Also, when you say "rare infections," your are referring to Immuno-deficiency related ilnesses, correct? That seems your implication.
With this statemnet, you cn be clearly seen to be suspending your disbelief, abandoning your logic, reason, and sensibility in favor of rationalizing for your devotion to your AIDS Religion.
To paraphrase, you are saying that rampant, pervasive, unabated abuse of Immunosuppressants and Immunodepressants does not have any relation to or does not ever result in Immuno-deficiency.

That is just silly.


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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:09 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I think he doesn't understand that they can test for the actual HIV in people.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

You will not find HIV in any living person, right? HIV in humans is only found in dead people, who could not produce the Antibody. In order to prove that the person has "immuno-deficiency" the only test is used to prove the immune system is working and functional - by testing for the presence of the HIV Antibody, the product of the working immune system.

WTF?? OF COURSE you find HIV in living people! That's what "viral load" means.

Well, as of the turn of the century, no living person had been found with HIV present in their bodies. Can you provide reference for the first case found? What year was that?

That would be an HIV Negative person who had HIV.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:16 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
I think he doesn't understand that they can test for the actual HIV in people.

What is the test for that?

HIV Positive means the HIV Antibody is present. What is the test for live HIV presence?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The test for actual HIV 'antigen' (ie - the HIV proteins) in the blood.
Quote:

https://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/hiv-aids-screening#1
(Antibody/) antigen combination tests

The CDC recommends these blood tests. They can detect HIV earlier than antibody screening tests. They check for HIV antigen, a protein called p24 that's part of the virus and shows up 2 to 4 weeks after infection. (They also check for HIV antibodies.)


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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 5:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've been waiting for this shoe to drop ...
Quote:

Los Angeles County officials on Wednesday declared a state of emergency as they confirmed six new cases of novel coronavirus in the county.
The county Board of Supervisors and Department of Public Health made the announcement alongside L.A. Mayor Eric Garcetti and public health officials from Long Beach and Pasadena, which both have their own public health department.

County Supervisors and the Los Angeles City Council are both expected to hear reports during their Wednesday meetings about the status of the illness locally.

The county's second case

But what about cases three thru six?
Quote:

of COVID-19 was confirmed on Tuesday by Kaiser Permanente who is overseeing the care of the patient, currently in self-isolation and being treated as an outpatient, a spokesperson said. Additional details regarding the case were not available.


LA County might be at the case/case/case/cluster/cluster/BOOM! part of the exponential part of the curve.

LA County is very large. Does it mean anything that the Mayor of LA was flanked by Public Health officials of Pasadena and Long Beach? (We worked with LB Public Health lab on a toxic risk, I was VERY impressed with the dedication of the doctor who testified and helped us close down a facility.)

LA County is almost 4 times the geographica size of the State of Rhode Island, and their population is more than 9 times that of RI.

If LA County were a separate state, it would have about 15 Representatives in the House. It has more than 1/4 of the population of CA.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 6:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Well, as of the turn of the century, no living person had been found with HIV present in their bodies.
Which century are you posting about? 1900? 2000? Your info is seriously out of date.

KIKI, you might want to explain that the p24 antigen is part of the virus, NOT an antibody. That's what "antigen" means.


I have found a good historic reference to the isolation from, and detection of, HIV (the virus) from LIVING PEOPLE. However, I'm not going to discuss that until you clarify your "correlation". I understand correlations, I used them all the time at work: it is the relationship between "X" and "Y". NOT between "X" and "A,B,C,D, or E or ....

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 6:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
The test for actual HIV 'antigen' (ie - the HIV proteins) in the blood.
Quote:

https://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/hiv-aids-screening#1
(Antibody/) antigen combination tests

The CDC recommends these blood tests. They can detect HIV earlier than antibody screening tests. They check for HIV antigen, a protein called p24 that's part of the virus and shows up 2 to 4 weeks after infection. (They also check for HIV antibodies.)




If you’re infected with HIV, an antigen called p24 is produced even before antibodies develop.

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/testing/index.html

The antigen IS PRODUCED after HIV infection, part of the Immune System response, proving that the Immune System is working and functioning.

This is before the Immune System produces the Antibody, further proving the Immune System is responding, working, functioning properly.


But thanks for trying.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 6:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Jeezus, JSF, learn a little biology. p24 is produced, but by what? The human immune system, or the retrovirus itself? (HINT: look up the definition of "antigen")

Do you know how viruses work? They insert themselves into human cells and take over the protein production to make a lot more of themselves, until the cell explodes from virus particles. Viruses have preferred host cells. Some like to live in the nose ... like rhinovirus. Others in the gut, like norovirus. Some like to live in the throat, like ncov-19, and others in T cells, like HIV.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 7:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The antigen IS PRODUCED after HIV infection, part of the Immune System response, proving that the Immune System is working and functioning.
This is before the Immune System produces the Antibody, further proving the Immune System is responding, working, functioning properly.
But thanks for trying.

JSF - p24 IS A VIRAL PROTEIN NOT A HUMAN PROTEIN PRODUCED BY THE IMMUNE SYSTEM.

Do you know NOTHING about biology - at all?

Viruses hijack cells to produce more viruses like themselves. They do this by using the cells' machinery to produce viral proteins, and viral genetic code (RNA or DNA - which are nucleic acids, not proteins).


If a human is producing viral proteins, it's because they're infected with the virus.

Or, to be absolutely direct about it - a human that's producing HIV p24 protein is infected with HIV.



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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 7:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


More of Hilliary's best and brightest.

Dartmouth Administrator gets coronavirus confirmation, is told to remain in place quarantine, so he goes to black tie invitation-only event to infect the senior doctors at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical.

https://www.unionleader.com/news/health/coronavirus/first-to-test-posi
tive-with-coronavirus-disregarded-advice-attended-invitation/article_2da63bb4-818e-5774-a213-f40777cb0180.html



Geniuses, right there.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 7:42 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 7:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


kiki ear.ier wondered about China pollution effects from coronavirus.

I don't have the charts, but heard on radio that the polution as viewed from space went from the norm, heavily polluted in Dec, to either Jan or FEb the whole screen was clear.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The antigen IS PRODUCED after HIV infection, part of the Immune System response, proving that the Immune System is working and functioning.
This is before the Immune System produces the Antibody, further proving the Immune System is responding, working, functioning properly.
But thanks for trying.

JSF - p24 IS A VIRAL PROTEIN NOT A HUMAN PROTEIN PRODUCED BY THE IMMUNE SYSTEM.

Do you know NOTHING about biology - at all?

Viruses hijack cells to produce more viruses like themselves. They do this by using the cells' machinery to produce viral proteins, and viral genetic code (RNA or DNA - which are nucleic acids, not proteins).


If a human is producing viral proteins, it's because they're infected with the virus.

Or, to be absolutely direct about it - a human that's producing HIV p24 protein is infected with HIV.



Thanks for the update.

It still looks like once the Antibody is produced, the Virus is displaced. Is this correct? or are you saying they co-exist side by side?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It still looks like once the Antibody is produced, the Virus is displaced. Is this correct? or are you saying they co-exist side by side?
Jumping in for KIKI ... antibodies are produced but they're insufficient to clear the virus, so both exist. That's not unheard-of: Once the immune system is activated the chickenpox symptoms disappear, but the virus isn't completely killed- it goes to hide in nerve cells and can re-emerge decades later as shingles. You still have circulating antibodies, tho.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, March 4, 2020 10:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
James Bond delayed until November.

https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/movies/james-bond-sequel-delaye
d-till-november-amid-virus-outbreak



Nobody is going to watch that anyway. But at least they can't blame Coronavirus for it this time.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 12:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

It still looks like once the Antibody is produced, the Virus is displaced. Is this correct? or are you saying they co-exist side by side?
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Jumping in for KIKI ... antibodies are produced but they're insufficient to clear the virus, so both exist. That's not unheard-of: Once the immune system is activated the chickenpox symptoms disappear, but the virus isn't completely killed- it goes to hide in nerve cells and can re-emerge decades later as shingles. You still have circulating antibodies, tho.

I wish * I * had said that, Signy.

JSF, Signy is correct.

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 10:47 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


More US cases, in more US states, with more US deaths, and now the US has it's own (Grand) 'Princess' cruise ship experiment, to see if it can do better than Japan.

The ship afaik sailed round trip between SanFran and Mexico, with 2 passengers who developed symptoms during the cruise debarking in SanFran, with one layer dying. The ship was to sail from SanFran with a call in Ensanada before sailing on to Hawaii, with 62 people still on board from the earlier Mexico trip for the Hawaii trip. It was called back from its route and has dropped anchor off of SanFran while officials determine what to do. But because it's 'travel' related - thought not to or from any high-risk areas - it's not considered community spread. I would consider that fudging the numbers. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/03/04/1st-california-coronaviru
s-death-san-francisco-mexico-princess-cruise-ship-placer-county
/

The one thing there is less of is test kits being delivered as compared to how many were promised.

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 12:20 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


lol rich people.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
More US cases, in more US states, with more US deaths, and now the US has it's own (Grand) 'Princess' cruise ship experiment, to see if it can do better than Japan.

The ship afaik sailed round trip between SanFran and Mexico, with 2 passengers who developed symptoms during the cruise debarking in SanFran, with one layer dying. The ship was to sail from SanFran with a call in Ensanada before sailing on to Hawaii, with 62 people still on board from the earlier Mexico trip for the Hawaii trip. It was called back from its route and has dropped anchor off of SanFran while officials determine what to do. But because it's 'travel' related - thought not to or from any high-risk areas - it's not considered community spread. I would consider that fudging the numbers. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/03/04/1st-california-coronaviru
s-death-san-francisco-mexico-princess-cruise-ship-placer-county
/

The one thing there is less of is test kits being delivered as compared to how many were promised.

Definitely fudging numbers - what the CDC is for.

So, it got called back as a caution, or something was up before it headed to HI?

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

It still looks like once the Antibody is produced, the Virus is displaced. Is this correct? or are you saying they co-exist side by side?
Jumping in for KIKI ... antibodies are produced but they're insufficient to clear the virus, so both exist. That's not unheard-of: Once the immune system is activated the chickenpox symptoms disappear, but the virus isn't completely killed- it goes to hide in nerve cells and can re-emerge decades later as shingles. You still have circulating antibodies, tho.

Thanks for the update.
So, in all of these cases, do the bodies produce the Antibody? Or do HIV Present cases now have HIV Negative results for Antibody?


To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

So, it (Grand Princess) got called back as a caution, or something was up before it headed to HI?
This is as I understand the situation. The Grand Princess made the round trip SF to Mexico and back. At least 1 person developed symptoms onboard during that trip. A number of passengers disembarked on return to SF, 62 remained. Of the disembarked passengers, 2 later tested positive for SARS-COV-2, and one of the 2 passed away.

At that point the Grand Princess had already set sail for Mexico port of call, to eventually head to Hawaii. Before it reached Mexico, it was recalled to SF due to the test results/ death of the 2 disembarked passengers, but not allowed to dock. So I presume it dropped anchor somewhere in open water.

At this point afaik over 100 people, have flu-like symptoms.

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

So, in all of these cases, do the bodies produce the Antibody? Or do HIV Present cases now have HIV Negative results for Antibody?
Eventually yes, people produce antibodies. Unfortunately, the antibodies aren't 'protective', meaning they don't allow the body to eliminate the virus. (And that's been a HUGE problem with creating a vaccine, which is why there's no deployed vaccine to this date. People develop antibodies to the vaccines, but those antibodies don't 'neutralize' the virus.)
Quote:

To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.
I don't remember the names of the individuals who did the research, but there were co-claims from both the CDC and the Pasteur Institute in Paris to have isolated the causative agent. It was ~1983.

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 6:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

It still looks like once the Antibody is produced, the Virus is displaced. Is this correct? or are you saying they co-exist side by side?
Jumping in for KIKI ... antibodies are produced but they're insufficient to clear the virus, so both exist. That's not unheard-of: Once the immune system is activated the chickenpox symptoms disappear, but the virus isn't completely killed- it goes to hide in nerve cells and can re-emerge decades later as shingles. You still have circulating antibodies, tho.

Thanks for the update.
So, in all of these cases, do the bodies produce the Antibody? Or do HIV Present cases now have HIV Negative results for Antibody?


To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

I hate to be a nudge about this, but I'm not going to move off that "correlation" that you claim exists until you find the data and link it or at least cite it.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:34 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/03/asia/novel-coronavirus-covid-19-int
l-hnk/index.html


The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) said that public health officials are operating in "uncharted territory" as they combat the spread of the novel coronavirus, which has infected more than 90,000 people across 73 countries and territories as of Monday evening.

The WHO has so far held off on classifying the incident as a global pandemic, but has warned it is a possibility in the near future.

The pandemic bonds mature July 2020.
Quote:

"Let's be clear: The risk to the American people of the coronavirus remains low, according to all of the experts that we are working with across the government," Pence said.
Because there's "only" 100 cases in the US ... that they know of.

Not sure if Olympics has been mentioned in this thread. They claim to be holding off on a decision of whether to cancel.

24 July in Tokyo.

Can they wait until the bonds mature before making a decision on the Games?

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:42 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN



This site
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
now says 16% of Active Cases are critical/serious, 6% of Closed cases are fatal.


DP cases have 6 deaths (down from 7!! Maybe 1 undied). 212 recovered, 35 serious/critical.

Germany is about to surpass Diamond Princess for 5th place.

US is in 10th place, with 221 cases and 9 recoveries. 12 deaths.

Canada is 24th place, with 45 cases, 8 recoveries. 0 deaths.


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Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:46 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

[/i]


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:


DP cases have 6 deaths (down from 7!! Maybe 1 undied). 212 recovered, 35 serious/critical.




You joke, but that's how the zombie apocalypse starts.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, March 5, 2020 8:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


From Feb 28.
More when I get time.
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Just anecdotal "evidence" as far as I'm concerned.


AIDS isn't likely to be real.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

You must be trolling us.


I mean, I knew in the beginning of the epidemic there were people who insisted ... INSISTED, I TELL YOU... that a retrovirus wasn't the cause of AIDS, that it was a "lifestyle" disease caused by drug use and the "homosexual lifestyle".

That non-homosexuals and non-drug users (like, children who caught it from their mothers during birth) also got AIDS? Piffle!

That clean living and vitamins didn't provide a cure? Just a hoax!

That the virus was isolated from patients and its sequence determined, and it was seen under electron microscope? An incidental finding!

That antivirals reversed the symptoms and allowed patients to live longer, healthier lives? A hoax by Big Pharma!

That the disease could be prevented by using condoms during sex, despite all the rest of the "homosexual lifestyle"? Sheer placebo effect!

It was as crazy-making as listening to a flat-earther deny direct, experiential evidence that the earth is round.

I thought that the idea of the "non-viral" origin of AIDS had disappeared under the onslaught of evidence, but apparently there still are adherents to the idea, just as there are still flat-earthers around.

Well, it takes all kinds, I guess! The world would be a lot less interesting if everyone just accepted evidence! Carry on!




To help move this discussion along a bit, can you name the person who developed the hypothesis that "AIDS" was caused by HIV? If you wish to include the year, that is fine as well.

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