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Originally posted by Karen/ Kevin:

My words quoted in entire sentences in no way represent what I've posted! And the links in no way allow any context!!

And I post this because I'm an idiot and a loser!

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Originally posted by Karen/ Kevin:
trolling

Do Right Wrong, Be Right Wrong. :)

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Originally posted by Karen/ Kevin:
trolling

Do Right Wrong, Be Right Wrong. :)

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Originally posted by Karen/ Kevin:
trolling

Do Right Wrong, Be Right Wrong. :)

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

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Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Combination in Patients Hospitalized with COVID-19

Highlights

• As of May27, 2020 there are over 1,678,843 confirmed cases of COVID-19 claiming more than 100,000 lives in the Unites States. Currently there is no known effective therapy or vaccine.
• According to a protocol-based treatment algorithm, among hospitalized patients, use of hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with a significant reduction in-hospital mortality compared to not receiving hydroxychloroquine.
• Findings of this observational study provide crucial data on experience with hydroxychloroquine therapy, providing necessary interim guidance for COVID-19 therapeutic practice.

Conclusions and Relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.

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However:

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The combination of hydroxychloroquine?+?azithromycin was reserved for selected patients with severe COVID-19 and with minimal cardiac risk factors. An electrocardiogram (ECK) based algorithm was utilized for hydroxychloroquine use. QTc>500?ms was considered an elevated cardiac risk and consequently hydroxychloroquine was reserved for patients with severe disease with telemetry monitoring and serial QTc checks.

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Unscrambling the medical jargon what it means is this: One of the known side effects of HCQ (CQ, and quinine) is serious heart arrhythmias (there are several types). A cardiac arrhythmia is like having the pistons of your car each firing at all different times, or firing far too early, or far too late. Obviously your car won't run that way, and neither will your heart, and neither will you. And the main risk factor for death using HCQ in previous studies was cardiac arrhythmias. The SIGNIFICANT doubling of mortality using HCQ (double the death rate, or more) is what caused previous trials to be halted. All those extra deaths couldn't be ignored.

So THIS retrospective study addressed the very real issue of death-dealing arrhythmias, and selected data for patients that were both screened-for and monitored-for adverse cardiac effects.

By preventing all those deaths due to cardiac arrhythmias, the benefits were allowed to prevail.

I'm still left wondering why they don't run a trial with zinc added.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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Originally posted by JSF:
But it (lockdown) was presented as a temporary thing, and for specific reasons.

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Yes, to bend the curve to keep emergency services, hospitals, and it turns out morgues and funeral services, from being overloaded.

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Cures have been found or proposed

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The very best one which is Decadron (steroid - generic is dexamethasone) only helps about 30% of severe cases.

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even if States and Governors have outlawed them.

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Which ones are those?

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Mask and other PPE production and supply has ramped up. Hospitals have been ghosttowns for months, with doctors and nurses furloughed indefinitely due to all the empty beds.

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If you're in a lucky state, the ICUs still have room!

Texas has stopped reporting on capacity as numbers exceeded normal ICU bedspace https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/texas-wont-specif
y-where-hospital-beds-are-available-as-coronavirus-cases-hit-record-highs/287-2b8aeb26-0132-4d6b-baec-d029685a1a79 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/houston-hospitals-stop-reporting-cov
id-19-related-data-after-reaching-base-icu-capacity-report/ar-BB1656hh, Louisiana's region 5 is 6 beds shy of being at filled ICU capacity https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/as-covid-19-cases-go-up-numbe
r-of-available-icu-beds-in-cenla-go-down/ar-BB16aus6, Arizona has exceeded base ICU capacity and is converting non-ICU spaces like conference rooms into ICU care https://www.12news.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/inside-the-covi
d-19-icu-valley-nurses-share-what-they-see-as-cases-rise-in-arizona/75-dbb0485d-c486-4d37-8ab4-c478ab0b7a72 .

And, while I'm trying to not throw too much info at you at once, it turns out hospitals don't make their money on important stuff like ICUs and ERs. They make their money on elective procedures, which have been put off in favor of, actually, ahem!, saving lives. So between the increased cost of saving lives and the decreased revenue of not-vital 'stuff', hospitals are in an economic pinch. Which says a lot of really bad things about our medical system, whose goal is, quite obviously, to make money, and not at all about health.

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spread of cases and deaths has been mitigated and slowed, giving time for all of the stated specific needs.

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Deaths have fallen, but cases, and more importantly, hospitalizations, have gone up beyond capacity in many places. (My prediction is that as 'cases' move from young healthy people to people with pre-existing conditions like hypertension, obesity, diabetes, and age, deaths with go up dramatically).

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On the other hand, economies have gone in the toilet, Power-Hungry Dems have resisted or refused to end lockdowns - once they grabbed the power, they never want to give it up.

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Uh ... dood. Every state has relaxed restrictions. Hence, the surges in California, Arizona, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, and elsewhere.

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Some states have gone Death Panel Happy, shuffling as many old folks to the funeral home as they can manage, creating as much spread and death as possible.

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This is so ridiculous I can't let it go without saying "quotes and links, or it didn't happen".

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So what is the reasonable level? What percent of spread? We all know it will never be zero until herd immunity has occurred.
How many more years of lockdown is really needed?

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Somewhere between total lockdowns and no restrictions at all is vast territory you seem to be blind to.

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Remember that, if a nation implodes upon itself, there are plenty of dictators and despots around the world who would love to take a nation when it is down and out, and confiscate it or invade it.
The Chicken Little Ninnies have had their respite. What is next.

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And seriously, I can't see Russia or China storming across the Bering Strait - can you?

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Shall we understand that QTc is the duty cycle of the Q-R-S-T wave?

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For those reading along, the QRST wave is the sinusoidal heartbeat waveform seen on ECG displays,

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... and each following is smaller in power (voltage) and, usually, duration.

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The Q is the huge first pulse,

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and each of these 4 pulses is for a chamber of the heart.

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For a heart at 60 beats per minute (one per second), more than 500 milliseconds duty of the QRST wave leaves less than half the cycle at rest for the heart.

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IIRC, our test (simulated) wave had a duration of about 1/3 of the cycle, so the QRST was around 300ms, and the heart was able to rest for 2/3 of the time for each "beat." Generally, younger and healthier hearts have a stronger, quicker pulsewidth, and the heart rests most of the time between beats.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Cures have been found or proposed

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Which ones are those?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
New York and Michigan had outlawed them.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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Shall we understand that QTc is the duty cycle of the Q-R-S-T wave?

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No. The 'duty cycle' (active contraction phase) of one entire heartbeat begins with the P wave and ends with the end of the QRS complex (also called the QRS wave). But because they're living things, heart function has an entirely necessary intrinsic relax-and-recover phase after the contraction phase that needs to happen properly or the heart will fail to work at all.
This is unlike a non-living system which may continuously work (like a DC motor), and if pulsed, whose non-duty cycle is a genuine off phase where nothing happens (like a heater's off-phase in a thermostatted oven).
Since the heart's inactive relax-and-recover phase is completely vital to the correct functioning of the heart, it can't be ignored if you're checking how well the heart is working through an entire heartbeat. It has as a necessary part of its duty cycle a relax-and-recover phase.
So the duty cycle of a non-living system is an incorrect and inexact concept to apply to a heartbeat.
When it comes to one entire heartbeat, different parts of the heart squeeze at different times, and then need to relax-and-recover at different times during which they don't actively move; and the entire sequence of active squeezings then inactive relaxings-and-recoverings needs to happen correctly for the heart to function correctly.

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For those reading along, the QRST wave is the sinusoidal heartbeat waveform seen on ECG displays,

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As part of the entire heartbeat seen on an EKG (also called ECG), there is an initial P wave before the QRS complex, and then there's the QRS complex, which in turn is followed by a T wave. So the entire sequence is P ... QRS ... T ... (and sometimes U).

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... and each following is smaller in power (voltage) and, usually, duration.

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The initial P wave is a relatively low, long duration wave. The next QRS complex is a (normally) larger, shorter duration peak. The T wave that follows the QRS complex is lower than the QRS complex, but longer in duration.

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The Q is the huge first pulse,

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The QRS complex begins with a small downward wave Q, followed by a tall sharply upward going peak R, then a sharp downward drop which may meet the baseline or drop slightly below it at S.

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and each of these 4 pulses is for a chamber of the heart.

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Eh ... no. The P wave is when the 2 upper chambers of the heart squeeze nearly simultaneously (the recovery wave of the 2 upper chambers is not seen in an EKG because it's low, and slow, and lies underneath the QRS complex); the QRS complex is when the 2 lower chambers squeeze nearly simultaneously, and the T wave is the recovery wave of the 2 lower chambers.

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For a heart at 60 beats per minute (one per second), more than 500 milliseconds duty of the QRST wave leaves less than half the cycle at rest for the heart.

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Each contraction-and-recovery sequence has its own timing cycle which, in a normal heart, depends in part on how large the part of the heart is that's generating a signal (because the signal will take longer to travel through something that's larger), as well as if there are conduction cells in that part of the heart, as well as any modifying signals that change how the heart beats and relaxes.

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IIRC, our test (simulated) wave had a duration of about 1/3 of the cycle, so the QRST was around 300ms, and the heart was able to rest for 2/3 of the time for each "beat." Generally, younger and healthier hearts have a stronger, quicker pulsewidth, and the heart rests most of the time between beats.

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Eh .... no.

The heart is a complicated muscle surrounding 4 chambers.

There are two sides to the heart, the right side and the left side, corresponding to 2 circulatory systems that are fluidically linked in a continuous circuit. The two circulatory systems are the right side of the heart and its associated blood vessels in the lungs, where the right side of the heart pushes blood through the lungs. The blood exiting from the lungs then enters the left side of the heart which pushes blood through its associated blood vessels in the body. The blood exiting the body then enters the right side of the heart. (Obviously the right-and-left/ lung-and-body systems need to be balanced with each other.)

Each side of the heart has a top chamber and a bottom chamber, for 4 chambers total. The right and left sides are fused together with a barrier in between (except in infants who are born with 'holes' in their hearts, where there are holes between the right and left upper parts, or holes between the right and left lower parts, or holes in both the upper and lower parts of the heart).

The upper chambers and the lower chambers, and the left and right sides of the heart are coordinated together by clusters and networks of cells whose job it is to generate and transmit electrical signals that cause the chambers of the heart to squeeze (contract) in proper sequence. After contracting, the cardiac cells are unable to squeeze anymore until they literally recharge, and so the various parts of the heart muscle relax; and in that time the chambers mechanically refill.

The right side of the heart receives de-oxygenated blood from the body into the upper chamber (right atrium), which squeezes the blood through a one-way valve into the lower chamber (right ventricle). The lower chamber then squeezes and pushes the blood through a one-way valve through the lungs, so the blood can be oxygenated. The left side of the heart receives oxygenated blood from the lungs into the upper chamber (left atrium), which squeezes the blood through a one-way valve into the lower chamber (left ventricle). The lower chamber then squeezes and pushes the blood through a one-way valve through the body. Obviously it has the hardest job to do of all 4 chambers and is the largest, with the thickest muscle walls.

In the right atrium is a bundle of cells (SA node) which generates a rhythmic (pulsed) electrical signal. This pulse is the start of a cardiac contraction. This electrical signal causes the upper chambers, the right and left atria, to depolarize and contract.

THIS IS THE FIRST WAVE ON AN EKG, CALLED THE P WAVE, WHICH IS A RELATIVELY SMALL ROUNDED BUMP.

The signal travels along special conduction fibers to the place where the walls of the 4 chambers meet, where there's another node called the AV node. The AV node is at the start of a conduction system for the two lower chambers. The 2 ventricles could depolarize and contract by passing the signal muscle-cell-to-muscle-cell. But that creates a very lazy, slow, sloppy contraction. What you want is a brisk contraction of both lower chambers all at once. That's the job of the AV node and the cellular wiring that runs along and through the 2 ventricles. The AV node accumulates signal over time from the 2 top chambers until it passes a threshold and is triggered to depolarize in one quick pulse. That signal is sent downward along two bundles of nerves, one that runs along the inside wall of the right lower chamber then branches out throughout the muscle tissue of the right lower chamber; and an equivalent for the left lower chamber. Those structures ensure that the lower chambers start with a sharp strong signal from the AV node, which then gets evenly distributed through the muscle tissues on both sides to create a brisk, coordinated contraction across both lower chambers.

AS THE TWO LOWER CHAMBERS BRISKLY DEPOLARIZE AND CONTRACT, THEY CREATE THE NEXT PART OF THE EKG WHICH IS LARGE AND SHARP, THE QRS COMPLEX.

AND AS THE VENTRICLES RECOVER AND RECHARGE BACK TO THEIR NORMAL STATE, ANOTHER SOFT WAVE IN THE EKG IS CREATED CALLED THE T WAVE.


There is a lot of potential for the heart to misfire, for parts to go rogue and fire early, for the signals to be blocked, or to go to the wrong part of the heart, or for parts to not work well and create messy, underpowered, or incomplete signals in the heart.

One problem is called long-QT syndrome, and that's where the time between the start of the QRS ventricle contraction wave and the end of the T ventricle recovery wave is extra long. It's caused by the ventricles taking an extra long time to recharge. What goes wrong with the heartbeat with long-QT syndrome is this: when the signal that starts at the SA node that then triggers the AV node arrives at the ventricles, they're still recovering from the previous beat and aren't ready to contract. The signal to contract triggers nothing. By the time the ventricles are ready to contract, the normal signal to trigger them has already come and gone. The ventricles may then internally generate their own trigger signals, causing chaotic heart action, which can cause fainting, or go as far as causing fibrillation and sudden death.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/long-qt-syndrome/sympto
ms-causes/syc-20352518

But long QT syndrome is only one of many of the cardiac arrhythmias which can be caused by HCQ, CQ, or even quinine.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Meh.

This is a mystery story and we still don't know the end. The plot has many twists and turns, even reversals and dead end branches. So instead of thinking that each new fact has The End written after it, instead think that it has To be continued ...

In this particular instance, given how quickly antibody levels MAY fade, it's POSSIBLE that people were exposed and did develop at least SOME type of immunity. For example, they MAY have 'memory cells' (a type of T-cell immune lymphocyte) ready to attack the invader if it shows up again.

Or, it's POSSIBLE that other effective measures, like mask wearing, or air filters, could be used.



Stop thinking in such limited false dilemmas.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Though this article doesn't have the answers, it's one after my own heart.

What are the most problematic transmission mechanisms for SARS-CoV-2?

https://news.yahoo.com/editorial-still-dont-know-enough-100034338.html

"Contact tracing in Sacramento found that the biggest sources of recent spread there were graduation parties, funeral gatherings and the like." And also bars and family bbqs, as well as indoor restaurants.

Is there something about eating and drinking specifically that promotes spread, like increased saliva production or alcohol-thinned exhalations? Or is it that people let their guard down, don't wear masks (admittedly hard to do while eating and drinking), and fail to practice social distancing? (... or worse, getting close and in each others' faces.)

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‘Catch and kill’: Scientists reveal air filter ALMOST 100% effective against coronavirus

Scientists have designed an air filter that can both catch and kill the coronavirus by trapping and neutralizing it instantly. The new invention could be used to reduce the spread of the virus in enclosed spaces.

The study, which appeared in Materials Today Physics on Tuesday, states that 99.8 percent of Covid-19 is killed within a single pass through the filter.

The device was also found to kill 99.9 percent of the spores of the deadly bacterium Bacillus anthracis, which causes the anthrax disease.

What makes the device remarkable is that it is made by commercially available nickel foam heated to 200 degrees Centigrade.

“This filter could be useful in airports and in airplanes, in office buildings, schools and cruise ships to stop the spread of Covid-19, its ability to help control the spread of the virus could be very useful for society,” said Zhifeng Ren, director of the Texas Center for Superconductivity at the University of Houston, who collaborated with Monzer Hourani, CEO of Medistar (a Texan real estate firm) to create the device.
Also on rt.com Self-cleaning and reusable USB mask can KILL COVID-19 virus with HEAT, researchers say

The filter is also thought to be scalable, with Medistar executives proposing a desk-top model that can purify the air in an office worker’s immediate surroundings.

In the hot southern state of Texas, the fact that the virus can survive for three hours and spread via air conditioning units is a problem.

This being the case, the creation of a filter that could neutralize the threat quickly was a viable plan.

Armed with the knowledge that the virus could not survive above 70 degrees Centigrade (about 158 degrees Fahrenheit), the researchers decided to incorporate heat into the solution.

Because the filter is electronically heated a minimal amount of energy is used up, making the device more efficient and viable.
Also on rt.com Covid-19 herd immunity unlikely anytime soon as study shows just 5% of Spanish population has antibodies

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Self-cleaning and reusable USB mask can KILL COVID-19 virus with HEAT, researchers say

Researchers in Israel say they’ve created a face mask that kills the Covid-19 virus with heat. The virus-zapping mask has a USB port that allows a power source such as a phone charger to be connected to it.

Once powered, it takes 30 minutes for the mask to heat up to a temperature that will kill the virus (70 degrees Celsius or 158 degrees Fahrenheit), thereby disinfecting its inner layer of carbon fibres.

Professor Yair Ein-Eli, who led the research team at Technion, the Israeli Institute of Technology, in Haifa, explained that one of the main problems with the typical disposable face mask is that it’s environmentally damaging.

“You have to make it reusable and friendly, and this is our solution,” he said about heatable masks.

The researchers submitted a patent for the mask in late March in the US, and discussions are ongoing about bringing it to market in the private sector. The prototype reportedly looks similar to the surgical-grade N95 mask used in hospitals worldwide, but, when commercially available, will sell for $1 more than the standard version.

With masks in high demand globally during the pandemic, researchers have been coming up with new ways to boost its lifespan. In May, researchers from Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah University of Science and Technology, and the University of California in the US, created a hydrophobic membrane that makes the N95 mask reusable and more effective.

With no sign of the virus abating, and with some countries now mandating that their citizens wear masks in public, manufacturers are incentivized to keep coming up with ever more inventive and environmentally friendly solutions to the problem.

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Though this article doesn't have the answers, it's one after my own heart.

What are the most problematic transmission mechanisms for SARS-CoV-2?

https://news.yahoo.com/editorial-still-dont-know-enough-100034338.html

"Contact tracing in Sacramento found that the biggest sources of recent spread there were graduation parties, funeral gatherings and the like." And also bars and family bbqs, as well as indoor restaurants.

Is there something about eating and drinking specifically that promotes spread, like increased saliva production or alcohol-thinned exhalations? Or is it that people let their guard down, don't wear masks (admittedly hard to do while eating and drinking), and fail to practice social distancing? (... or worse, getting close and in each others' faces.)

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What second wave are you talking about?

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LOOKS LIKE SOMEBODY BEAT JO TO THE PUNCH
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:

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What second wave are you talking about?

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Clueless idiotroll JACKAREN - it's about ITALY ... the very first word of the very first sentence. Sheesh.

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Originally posted by JACKAREN:
What second wave are you talking about?

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Clueless idiotroll JACKAREN - it's about ITALY ... the very first word of the very first sentence. Sheesh.

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Originally posted by JACKAREN:


Uh huh.

Do Right Wrong, Be Right Wrong. :)

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Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Italy restarts without creating a second wave - what they might be doing right


https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87446

overall high participation by people in wearing face masks and social distancing
social distancing
restructuring public spaces like restaurants and hospitals
handwashing/ sanitizing
brisk response to new outbreaks with testing and contact tracing

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Has Italy Beaten COVID-19?

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Texas Suffers 3rd Day Of Record COVID-19 Deaths, Elected Surgeries Suspended In Hardest-Hit Counties: Live Updates

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
About that "not rising" death rate...

...Since ICU occupancy rates are rising in some states (TX, FL, AZ etc) deaths will follow as night follows day.

Indeed, the overall Daily New Deaths/ weekly average is RISING across the USA again, after having fallen from its peak about 80 days (3 months) ago.

ARIZONA takes first prize, as not only being the world's current hotspot for new infections but also reaching its all-time high.

ILLINOIS new deaths have quadrupled over the past 2 data points (14 days)

DELAWARE new deaths have also quadrupled over the past 2 data points.

FLORIDA, CALIFORNIA, UTAH, and SOUTH CAROLINA are at all-time highs, exceeding the peak reaches approx 2 months ago.

MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, and NEVADA also are near all-time highs, approaching the same peaks reached about 2-2 1/2 months ago.

TEXAS and VIRGINIA, having reach near/at zero are rising significantly.

So while new deaths are still decreasing in some states, overall new deaths are increasing in the USA.

This isn't a "second wave" it's a "first wave" which have finally hit previously unexposed populations.

NOTE: Cases are increasing even in warm-weather states in the summer. I don't think we will see any seasonal benefit.

Source: divoc-91.



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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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SIGNYM:
About that "not rising" death rate...

...Since ICU occupancy rates are rising in some states (TX, FL, AZ etc) deaths will follow as night follows day.

Indeed, the overall Daily New Deaths/ weekly average is RISING across the USA again, after having fallen from its peak about 80 days (3 months) ago.

ARIZONA takes first prize, as not only being the world's current hotspot for new infections but also reaching its all-time high.

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ILLINOIS new deaths have quadrupled over the past 2 data points (14 days)

DELAWARE new deaths have also quadrupled over the past 2 data points.

FLORIDA, CALIFORNIA, UTAH, and SOUTH CAROLINA are at all-time highs, exceeding the peak reaches approx 2 months ago.

MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, and NEVADA also are near all-time highs, approaching the same peaks reached about 2-2 1/2 months ago.

TEXAS and VIRGINIA, having reach near/at zero are rising significantly.

So while new deaths are still decreasing in some states, overall new deaths are increasing in the USA.

This isn't a "second wave" it's a "first wave" which have finally hit previously unexposed populations.

NOTE: Cases are increasing even in warm-weather states in the summer. I don't think we will see any seasonal benefit.

Source: divoc-91.


SIX: My point being that the percentage of deaths is growing ever smaller as more testing comes out. Just as I said it would from the beginning.
Open everything up. No masks.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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SIGNYM:
About that "not rising" death rate...

...Since ICU occupancy rates are rising in some states (TX, FL, AZ etc) deaths will follow as night follows day.

Indeed, the overall Daily New Deaths/ weekly average is RISING across the USA again, after having fallen from its peak about 80 days (3 months) ago.

ARIZONA takes first prize, as not only being the world's current hotspot for new infections but also reaching its all-time high.

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Of deaths

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ILLINOIS new deaths have quadrupled over the past 2 data points (14 days)

DELAWARE new deaths have also quadrupled over the past 2 data points.

FLORIDA, CALIFORNIA, UTAH, and SOUTH CAROLINA are at all-time highs, exceeding the peak reaches approx 2 months ago.

MISSISSIPPI, ALABAMA, and NEVADA also are near all-time highs, approaching the same peaks reached about 2-2 1/2 months ago.

TEXAS and VIRGINIA, having reach near/at zero are rising significantly.

So while new deaths are still decreasing in some states, overall new deaths are increasing in the USA.

This isn't a "second wave" it's a "first wave" which have finally hit previously unexposed populations.

NOTE: Cases are increasing even in warm-weather states in the summer. I don't think we will see any seasonal benefit.

Source: divoc-91.


SIX: My point being that the percentage of deaths is growing ever smaller as more testing comes out. Just as I said it would from the beginning.
Open everything up. No masks.

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You made a lot of "points", SIX, but that wasn't one of them. You said it was "staged". You said it was "propaganda". You said KIKI was being hysterical and wanted "the state" to control everything. You said the old and weak should die. You said it was "no worse than a cold". You said that "nobody" under 40 would get it.

You said a lot of shit which I remember quite well, most of which was either wrong or evil. If you want, I will go back to the thread where I started pulling up original quotes and add to that list.

And if you go back to my original points, you will notice that I was the one who kept bringing up the lack of testing creating a false picture of death rates.

Now, even knowing that the death rate is lower than originally thought ... but still, btw, far higher than influenza or "a cold" ... the question is, is it ACCEPTABLE?

I once challenged you to discuss the point about whether it was "worth it" to shut down, or slow down, the economy to save lives. It's a legitimate question: We don't spend our entire economy on keeping every single person alive no matter what the cost.

But instead of having an adult discussion, you call names and - worse- deny facts. And then you lie about what you posted when everyone has seen and remembers the reality. There's no point in discussing this with you, I'm just reacting to your lies.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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Scientists Discover That One Big Assumption That Everyone Has Been Making About COVID-19 May Be Dead Wrong

Over the past several months, there has been a tremendous amount of debate about almost every aspect of the COVID-19 pandemic. People have been eager to debate about the severity of the virus, they have been eager to debate about the wisdom of the lockdowns, and they have been eager to debate about the effectiveness of wearing masks. But the one thing that everyone could pretty much agree on is that eventually this pandemic would end. Virtually all of us assumed that one way or another eventually most of the population would develop COVID-19 antibodies and that once we got to that point the pandemic would fizzle out. Unfortunately, it appears that was not a safe assumption to make.

Yes, those that have had COVID-19 do develop antibodies.

But two new scientific studies have discovered that those antibodies start to fade very, very quickly.

For example, a study that was recently conducted in China found that more than 90 percent of COVID-19 patients experience steep declines in COVID-19 antibodies “within 2 to 3 months”…

A new study from China showed that antibodies faded quickly in both asymptomatic and symptomatic COVID-19 patients during convalescence, raising questions about whether the illness leads to any lasting immunity to the virus afterward.

The study, which focused on 37 asymptomatic and 37 symptomatic patients, showed that more than 90% of both groups showed steep declines in levels of SARS-COV-2–specific immunoglobulin G (IgG) antibodies within 2 to 3 months after onset of infection, according to a report published yesterday in Nature Medicine. Further, 40% of the asymptomatic group tested negative for IgG antibodies 8 weeks after they were released from isolation.

And a very large study that was just conducted in Spain found that some patients that had initially successfully developed antibodies “no longer had antibodies weeks later”…

A large study from Spain showed that antibodies can disappear weeks after people have tested positive, causing some to question how possible it will be to attain herd immunity.

A study published in medical journal Lancet showed 14% of people who tested positive for antibodies no longer had antibodies weeks later.

Needless to say, this is absolutely devastating news, and it has very serious implications for vaccine development…

Such findings have implications for vaccine development, since the efficacy of a vaccine hinges on the idea that a dose of weakened or dead virus can prompt your body to generate antibodies that protect you from future infection. If those antibodies are fleeting, a vaccine’s protection would be fleeting too.

Short-lived antibodies also diminish hopes of achieving widespread or permanent herd immunity.

If antibodies can fade in some patients within weeks, and if just about everyone loses them after a few months, that would render any vaccine almost completely useless.

And if these findings are confirmed, we can pretty much forget about ever achieving “herd immunity”.

Instead, we are potentially facing a future in which COVID-19 will be with us permanently, and people will need to understand that there is a possibility that they will be able to get infected repeatedly.

Sadly, there is evidence that this is already starting to happen for some patients. In a recent article for Vox, a doctor in Washington D.C. named D. Clay Ackerly shared that one of his patients got infected with COVID-19 again three months after being infected the first time…

“Wait. I can catch Covid twice?” my 50-year-old patient asked in disbelief. It was the beginning of July, and he had just tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, for a second time — three months after a previous infection.

And in that same article, Dr. Ackerly explained that other doctors are starting to see similar cases….

Recent reports and conversations with physician colleagues suggest my patient is not alone. Two patients in New Jersey, for instance, appear to have contracted Covid-19 a second time almost two months after fully recovering from their first infection. Daniel Griffin, a physician and researcher at Columbia in New York, recently described a case of presumed reinfection on the This Week in Virology podcast.

If you stop and really think about what all of this means, it will chill you to the core.

It means that COVID-19 is never going away.

And every time you get it, the more severe it is likely to be. Each time it will do even more permanent damage to your system until it finally finishes you off.

I seriously wish that what I was telling you was not true. I do not want to have to worry about a potentially deadly virus every time I leave my house.

But sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is going to be okay somehow is not going to do us any good.

In fact, denial can kill you.

A 37-year-old Ohio man named Richard Rose originally thought that all of the fuss about COVID-19 was just “hype”, and he angrily insisted that he would never buy a mask. The following is what he posted on Facebook on April 28th…

‘Let make this clear,’ he wrote, in a post that was shared 10,000 times.

‘I’m not buying a ******* mask. I’ve made it this far by not buying into that damn hype.’

Sadly, he eventually got infected, and COVID-19 killed him on July 3rd…

Richard Rose, a 37-year-old man from Port Clinton, Ohio, recently died from coronavirus after slamming “hype” about the pandemic on Facebook.

Rose’s family told Cleveland CBS affiliate 19 News the US Army veteran died at home on July 3, just three days after testing positive for COVID-19.

He was a healthy 37-year-old man.

If the virus can take him down, it could potentially take just about anyone down.

So please take this pandemic seriously.

Over the past week, we have seen daily numbers soar to levels that we have never seen before, and some experts believe that the numbers will continue to go higher as we approach the end of the year.

And as I just discussed above, if those that have had the virus quickly lose immunity, there will be nothing to stop this virus from sweeping across the globe year after year.

Needless to say, a lot more scientific studies need to be conducted, and hopefully those additional studies will show that the studies that were done in China and Spain were completely wrong.

But at this point the outlook for fighting this virus is exceedingly bleak, and scientists assure us that it is just a matter of time before a pandemic that is even worse comes along.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I thought this was interesting. I'm more interested in the possibility that antibodies may not confer long-lasting protection, but copied the entire article for full context

Quote:

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Scientists Discover That One Big Assumption That Everyone Has Been Making About COVID-19 May Be Dead Wrong

Over the past several months, there has been a tremendous amount of debate about almost every aspect of the COVID-19 pandemic. People have been eager to debate about the severity of the virus, they have been eager to debate about the wisdom of the lockdowns, and they have been eager to debate about the effectiveness of wearing masks. But the one thing that everyone could pretty much agree on is that eventually this pandemic would end. Virtually all of us assumed that one way or another eventually most of the population would develop COVID-19 antibodies and that once we got to that point the pandemic would fizzle out. Unfortunately, it appears that was not a safe assumption to make.

Yes, those that have had COVID-19 do develop antibodies.

But two new scientific studies have discovered that those antibodies start to fade very, very quickly.

For example, a study that was recently conducted in China found that more than 90 percent of COVID-19 patients experience steep declines in COVID-19 antibodies “within 2 to 3 months”…

A new study from China showed that antibodies faded quickly in both asymptomatic and symptomatic COVID-19 patients during convalescence, raising questions about whether the illness leads to any lasting immunity to the virus afterward.

The study, which focused on 37 asymptomatic and 37 symptomatic patients, showed that more than 90% of both groups showed steep declines in levels of SARS-COV-2–specific immunoglobulin G (IgG) antibodies within 2 to 3 months after onset of infection, according to a report published yesterday in Nature Medicine. Further, 40% of the asymptomatic group tested negative for IgG antibodies 8 weeks after they were released from isolation.

And a very large study that was just conducted in Spain found that some patients that had initially successfully developed antibodies “no longer had antibodies weeks later”…

A large study from Spain showed that antibodies can disappear weeks after people have tested positive, causing some to question how possible it will be to attain herd immunity.

A study published in medical journal Lancet showed 14% of people who tested positive for antibodies no longer had antibodies weeks later.

Needless to say, this is absolutely devastating news, and it has very serious implications for vaccine development…

Such findings have implications for vaccine development, since the efficacy of a vaccine hinges on the idea that a dose of weakened or dead virus can prompt your body to generate antibodies that protect you from future infection. If those antibodies are fleeting, a vaccine’s protection would be fleeting too.

Short-lived antibodies also diminish hopes of achieving widespread or permanent herd immunity.

If antibodies can fade in some patients within weeks, and if just about everyone loses them after a few months, that would render any vaccine almost completely useless.

And if these findings are confirmed, we can pretty much forget about ever achieving “herd immunity”.

Instead, we are potentially facing a future in which COVID-19 will be with us permanently, and people will need to understand that there is a possibility that they will be able to get infected repeatedly.

Sadly, there is evidence that this is already starting to happen for some patients. In a recent article for Vox, a doctor in Washington D.C. named D. Clay Ackerly shared that one of his patients got infected with COVID-19 again three months after being infected the first time…

“Wait. I can catch Covid twice?” my 50-year-old patient asked in disbelief. It was the beginning of July, and he had just tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, for a second time — three months after a previous infection.

And in that same article, Dr. Ackerly explained that other doctors are starting to see similar cases….

Recent reports and conversations with physician colleagues suggest my patient is not alone. Two patients in New Jersey, for instance, appear to have contracted Covid-19 a second time almost two months after fully recovering from their first infection. Daniel Griffin, a physician and researcher at Columbia in New York, recently described a case of presumed reinfection on the This Week in Virology podcast.

If you stop and really think about what all of this means, it will chill you to the core.

It means that COVID-19 is never going away.

And every time you get it, the more severe it is likely to be. Each time it will do even more permanent damage to your system until it finally finishes you off.

I seriously wish that what I was telling you was not true. I do not want to have to worry about a potentially deadly virus every time I leave my house.

But sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is going to be okay somehow is not going to do us any good.

In fact, denial can kill you.

A 37-year-old Ohio man named Richard Rose originally thought that all of the fuss about COVID-19 was just “hype”, and he angrily insisted that he would never buy a mask. The following is what he posted on Facebook on April 28th…

‘Let make this clear,’ he wrote, in a post that was shared 10,000 times.

‘I’m not buying a ******* mask. I’ve made it this far by not buying into that damn hype.’

Sadly, he eventually got infected, and COVID-19 killed him on July 3rd…

Richard Rose, a 37-year-old man from Port Clinton, Ohio, recently died from coronavirus after slamming “hype” about the pandemic on Facebook.

Rose’s family told Cleveland CBS affiliate 19 News the US Army veteran died at home on July 3, just three days after testing positive for COVID-19.

He was a healthy 37-year-old man.

If the virus can take him down, it could potentially take just about anyone down.

So please take this pandemic seriously.

Over the past week, we have seen daily numbers soar to levels that we have never seen before, and some experts believe that the numbers will continue to go higher as we approach the end of the year.

And as I just discussed above, if those that have had the virus quickly lose immunity, there will be nothing to stop this virus from sweeping across the globe year after year.

Needless to say, a lot more scientific studies need to be conducted, and hopefully those additional studies will show that the studies that were done in China and Spain were completely wrong.

But at this point the outlook for fighting this virus is exceedingly bleak, and scientists assure us that it is just a matter of time before a pandemic that is even worse comes along.

---

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I thought this was interesting. I'm more interested in the possibility that antibodies may not confer long-lasting protection, but copied the entire article for full context

---

Quote:

---

Scientists Discover That One Big Assumption That Everyone Has Been Making About COVID-19 May Be Dead Wrong

Virtually all of us assumed that one way or another eventually most of the population would develop COVID-19 antibodies and that once we got to that point the pandemic would fizzle out. Unfortunately, it appears that was not a safe assumption to make.

Yes, those that have had COVID-19 do develop antibodies.

But two new scientific studies have discovered that those antibodies start to fade very, very quickly.

Needless to say, this is absolutely devastating news, and it has very serious implications for vaccine development…

Such findings have implications for vaccine development, since the efficacy of a vaccine hinges on the idea that a dose of weakened or dead virus can prompt your body to generate antibodies that protect you from future infection. If those antibodies are fleeting, a vaccine’s protection would be fleeting too.

Short-lived antibodies also diminish hopes of achieving widespread or permanent herd immunity.

If antibodies can fade in some patients within weeks, and if just about everyone loses them after a few months, that would render any vaccine almost completely useless.

...we are potentially facing a future in which COVID-19 will be with us permanently, and people will need to understand that there is a possibility that they will be able to get infected repeatedly.

It means that COVID-19 is never going away.

And every time you get it, the more severe it is likely to be. Each time it will do even more permanent damage to your system until it finally finishes you off.

... if those that have had the virus quickly lose immunity, there will be nothing to stop this virus from sweeping across the globe year after year.

---

Quote:

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

#WEARAMASK

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