In the garden, and RAIN!!!! by SIGNYM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Strange violent sensation in your chest - like a BIG thump? It could be a PVC - when the heart has a small extra-fast beat (a PVC, sometimes called a VPC) and then waits an extra long time for the next one, that late one feels like a huge thump. It could be obstructive sleep apnea, when you finally relax your jaw and tongue slip backwards and block your windpipe, and you end up with a waking up with burning chest and a BIG panicked need to breathe. It could be a hypnagogic jerk, as Signy suggests.

FWIW I've had all 3 of the above. And I've had them repeat over and over and over at night, like you. (But I had each type separately during different time periods of my life.) For some reason, when I was in my 30s thru 40s the process of down-regulating to sleep was very fraught, as I was trying to slip down to a lower rhythm.

In any case, Signy has a lot of good suggestions.

But if obstructive sleep apnea is the issue, I've found positioning myself semi-on my side/ face down to let my jaw relax forward instead of backward, helps.

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:00 AM

Thanks for the info, both of you. That might be what I'm experiencing (the hypnic jerks). Sadly, I'm not on the mild end of twitching fingers and toes, but I'd say I'm on the extreme to violent end of that spectrum. I'd imagine if there's a camera on me at night it would look like something out of The Exorcist. Most of the time I don't sit bolt upright, but I do bounce straight up if I don't go fully into a sitting position and fall back down. Usually these days followed by a rather loud "fuck" because it happened again, especially if it's going on a half dozen to a dozen times in one night. (Just imagine how great that was when my back was jacked up a few weeks ago).

I couldn't say if it was the heart or not. I'm guessing it's not because I'm still here to type this. The stomach is right there too. When it first happened, before I got "used" to it, the sensation was like my heart exploded but there wasn't any pain. I know that probably doesn't make any sense to somebody who hasn't experienced it before, but that's about the best I can do to explain it.

Stress has almost always been a part of me. It's really the only thing on the list that I can say has always been there. I know I drink way too much coffee these days, but it happened all throughout the second half of my life, and much of that I hardly drank coffee at all or in much more moderate amounts.

It's nice to hear that it's not a serious condition, other than the fact that I don't sleep well because of it.

I doubt it's sleep apnea. I don't snore at all, not even slightly. My brother suffers badly from that, and before he got the machine he needs to wear every night, he used to snore so loud he could wake you up through the walls in separate rooms. I don't know how his wife managed to put up with that before he got treated.

I can't sleep on my sides at all. I used to every night when I was a kid, but around my early to mid 20's when I put on a lot of muscle mass from working out, on top of the fact that I smoke, I can't sleep on my sides anymore because my arms will fall asleep. I mean full-out. I've woken up and had zero feeling from my shoulder to my fingertips and I have "flop" my arm into the wall until I get the pins and needles and regain control of it. I've only slept on my back for the last 20 or so years.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:09 AM

So... uh... how long have we all known each other here?

A new "project" of mine is going through my old emails, as painful and embarrassing as that is. I need to purge a lot of stuff from my old life and make amends with those who I feel it is worth doing so. It's "Step Two" of my Two Step recovery program that I'm finally getting around to. I honestly have no idea what the other 10 steps those other people do and don't really have any desire to learn about it.

Lot's of interesting stuff I'm uncovering.

I don't know what I would have guessed, Kiki, if you had asked me that same question first. I certainly wouldn't have said since at least 2013. And I would have been wrong.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:28 AM

Oh... and if the hypnic twitches weren't enough, I get this too...

My "shadow person" is actually a "smoke person". No hat. No clothing. Just a moving cloud of black, grey and white smoke swirling around in a humanoid shape with glowing white eyes and a hint of small black horns on its head. That's what it's been every time, all dozen or so times it's happened.

It also doesn't move toward me like other people see. It doesn't hang around where I'm sleeping. It just stands there in the corner staring right at me.

The abject fear throughout your entire body and mind is the worst part of it. It feels as though you're completely awake. Your eyes are open. You can move them around and see everything in the room around you, but your body is still asleep and it's as if your mind cannot control it. Imagine the feeling of being in a terrible nightmare and that feeling like you're fighting for your life to get out of it. That's how this feels, but it seems to go on for minutes at a time before you can finally break free and "wake up", but the only changes that occur are that you can move again and the "smoke person" is gone. You're still in the same room you were already in, because you weren't dreaming in the first place and your eyes were wide open.

And it gets better...

Don't lay back down right away, because you will immediately fall back asleep, but not a real sleep. You're back in the sleep paralysis almost immediately and the "smoke person" is right back there in the corner of the room staring right back at you, and the intense feeling of fear comes right back and now you're fighting for your life to claw your way out of it all over again.

I've actually been able in certain circumstances force myself into that state. I can't explain how, but unlike the first times that it happened all on its own, I made a mental effort to put myself into that state after I found out that this was something else that a lot of other people have experienced before. (I used to keep this to myself because I thought people would have thought I was crazy).

I can't control it all the time. It's kind of like lucid dreaming (which is essentially the opposite of this experience, but is AWESOME when you can achieve it and be in a dream while knowing full well you are dreaming and just doing amazing things like flying anywhere you want or lifting impossible objects). I can't do either of these things on command, but there is some sort of mental trigger where I happen to be "conscious" enough at just the right time in the sleep cycle where I can make an effort to push myself in either direction. I don't believe that it is an either/or thing, like you could ever make the choice to do one or the other, because I don't think that either one is possible at the same time during sleep cycles.

I can't explain any of it better than that. Trying to do so is like trying to explain to a blind person what the color blue looks like.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 3:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

If I were to take a guess, SIX, I'd say your brain has a hard time handling that whole sleep-wake transition. As I understand it, different parts of the brain go offline or into a different state at different times. Usually its a smooth sequence, kind of like a shutdown sequence for a computer, but it sounds like in your case certain things happen too soon, or too late.

It doesn't help that you're jacking up your pathway towards sleep ... The way it's suppposed to work is that the light gets dim, your physical activity slows down, your body temperature falls, and your thoughts unwind. And it is really REALLY helpful if this happens at more or less the same time every day so your body and brain know what is supposed to happen when. So kind of free-wheeling your way thru the day, powering thru late-night work on coffee ... while it might be productive and address some of your anxieties about the future, it really plays havoc with your circadian rhythm. Unless you're willing to try and moderate that behavior I think you'll just have to put up with the myoclonic jerks because I haven't found any sure-fire fix that will overpower all of the other factors pushing in the wrong direction.

But I do have a thought about how to unwind. "They" say that journaling is a very powerful tool. "They" say that it is helpful to spend about 15 minutes at the end of every day focusing on what is making you most anxious. Yanno, REALLY awfulize it! (If I don't get this done then that bad thing will happen, and if that bad thing happens then something worse will happen, and then ... I'll be out on the street with no job, no home, no family, no friends) ... and WRITE IT DOWN. Then, CLOSE THE BOOK. I don't do that, exactly, but I have a diary that I keep ... if something pops into mind that I need to do I write it down before it skitters away. I record what I did, who I called, what they said, appointments I've kept, symptoms that I or the family seem to be having which I find helpful in dealing with doctors ("How long has that been going on?") ... it's a place to "dump" all of those nagging thoughts and also a record of accomplishment, and if I had to keep all of that bubbling at the top of my mind it would really make me anxious. Posting online seems to be a good record for your accomplishments but a private space for personal worries might be helpful.

Another possibility is melatonin about an hour before bedtime. By itself, melatonin won't do much but it you combine with a better sleep-inducing routine it might help

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 5:10 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Stress has almost always been a part of me. It's really the only thing on the list that I can say has always been there. I know I drink way too much coffee these days, but it happened all throughout the second half of my life, and much of that I hardly drank coffee at all or in much more moderate amounts."

I've ALWAYS had problems getting to sleep, even as a very young kid (well under 5). One of my earlier memories is lying down in bed at night with my heart going - pound pound pound pound pound - that was my normal. I rarely recall (in my life, probably on the fingers of one hand) getting comfy ... drowsy ... having my mind wander ... drifting off. No. I'm awake, awake, awake, awake, awake, awake, awake, awake ... waking up at some point.

I want to ask you to not rule anything out.

When I was young - younger than 5 and through my pre-teens - I had what I think of as 'restless body syndrome'. I would twist and turn and twist and turn ... (while my heart went - pound pound pound pound pound -) I believe I was running out of air. I had many allergies and asthma as a kid (still do), and it kept me from relaxing because I would snore, and have sleep apnea. This wasn't because I was overweight or under-muscled, or underactive. It's just the allergies swelled everything up a bit, which made breathing and getting air more difficult, which made relaxing difficult, which made sleep difficult.

The problem returned in my 30s and 40s, when I was extremely active and fit. But I would actually stop breathing, and wake up sitting straight up with a desperate gasp, with my heart pounding and a panicked feeling. I didn't think it was sleep apnea, because I thought that was for old, fat guys ... until the one night I woke up in the middle of a gasp and realized what I was doing. That's how I identified the problem.

So, not scolding or anything Jack, but you smoke and that can't help. Sleep apnea could be a problem.

Another thing is PVCs (premature ventricular contractions, aka VPCs ventricular pre-contractions). I had those as well. Generally it's caused by having an irritable spot in your ventricles, that spontaneously fires off an aberrant signal and makes your ventricles contract too early. Then when the REAL signal to contract comes down from the top of your heart, it finds the ventricles have already shot the bullet (so to speak) and are in the state of re-loading. They're just not ready, and so nothing happens. So your ventricles continue to fill up and fill up until the next signal to contract comes down that they can respond to, and that gives you an extra-late, extra-full, extra-hard THUMP heartbeat. Mostly they're uncomfortable but not harmful. Depending on your biochemistry, you may be sensitive to irritants that cause your ventricles to spontaneously misfire. That include caffeine and nicotine (and alcohol). An imbalance of minerals is also a problem. For me the problem was an unusual sensitivity to alcohol (specifically red wine, and possibly the sulfites in it). A glass or two a day more than 2 or 3 days in a row was enough to trigger problems. But also, I needed to eat better, more regular meals with more real food, and more real minerals, especially fruits and veges. It took a couple of months to eventually smooth out for good, but avoiding wine and eating regular food worked to clear that up. You may need to cut down on the caffeine and nicotine, and just eat better.

AND finally there's the myoclonus - which I've also had! That's the one that would often play on repeat in the eves - more so than the PVCs or the apnea which would repeat but not quite so insistently - - start to fall asleep and JERK!!! My entire body would stiffen up with a hard jerk. Then start to fall asleep and JERK!!! Then start to fall asleep and JERK!!! Then start to fall asleep and JERK!!! Eventually I had something very weird happen - which was a buzzing feeling in the base of my skull and my legs 'running' in place HARD, that I had no control over whatsoever despite being fully awake. That's what finally had me going for help. But once they determined it wasn't a new seizure disorder (a newly developed seizure disorder in adults is often a medical problem), they just wrote it off as a complex myoclonus. Anyway, reducing stress, reducing caffeine etc, better diet also helped clear that up.

So, yeah - I'd say don't dismiss things offhand. See if you can puzzle out what's happening first, second, and third. Do you wake up with a GASP! Do you feel an extra hard THUMP from your heart? Do you notice a ringing in one ear, a glow behind your closed eyelids in part of your field of vision, or any other signal that ends with a big JERK!?

But in general, reduce stress, reduce dietary irritants, eat regular food at regular times, and overall treat yourself more like a friend.

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 6:33 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'd say "listen to Kiki". She is considering a wider variety of possibilities than I am. I should never cross anything off a list unless I can do so definitively. And, nothing says that you don't have three or more things going on!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 9:18 PM

Well... if I could afford a sleep study like my brother did, maybe I'd do it. But, yanno...

I too, have suffered from insomnia since I was 5 years old. I remember specifically feeling a sense of abandonment every night when everybody else would easily fall asleep and I'd be up with my own thoughts until 1 or 2 AM almost every school night at a very young age.

Funny thing is, I don't really have insomnia anymore. Just all these other issues, compounded by the fact that I can rarely go a full night without having to go to the bathroom (which I've learned never to have a cigarette otherwise I won't get back to sleep for hours).

I don't think there's really any big mystery behind any of it. Even though I've been sober for three years and haven't smoked any weed for about five, I still smoke a lot and I actually drink about 3 times as much coffee than I used to ever since I stopped drinking. Maybe it is sleep apnea, but in the case of my brother the reason he was sent to get a sleep study is because his regular doctor visit was so terrible they wanted to know what was going on. I'm sure my visit today would not be as good as it was last year, but last visit turned up great for everything. Even when I was working and I had that great visit, I still had these jerks that would prevent me from sleeping. They do happen quite a bit more often now though...

In fact, my old man just woke me up from an early sleep tonight. I haven't been getting very good sleep recently and staying up real late along with getting up early in the morning, so tonight when I finished work I cooked my dinner about 4 hours earlier than usual and would have gone right to sleep if I didn't have about 2 or 3 more jerks... but I finally made it and then the phone woke me up. :)

BTW... My bedroom doors are finished and hung. That looks nice. :)

And tomorrow I'll get my tables back. I just didn't feel like doing it tonight... and I still don't.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I can't sleep on my sides at all. I used to every night when I was a kid, but around my early to mid 20's when I put on a lot of muscle mass from working out, on top of the fact that I smoke, I can't sleep on my sides anymore because my arms will fall asleep. I mean full-out. I've woken up and had zero feeling from my shoulder to my fingertips and I have "flop" my arm into the wall until I get the pins and needles and regain control of it. I've only slept on my back for the last 20 or so years.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I've dealt with that for 20years or so. Wake up and my entire arm from shoulder to fingers would be numb. Have to bang it on the bed to get the feeling back. My trouble though is caused by what I feel is nerve damage in my neck due to the brain tumour and the pressure it was exerting before the surgery and then after effects of the surgery. It is not a nice feeling to wake up to.

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Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I can't sleep on my sides at all. I used to every night when I was a kid, but around my early to mid 20's when I put on a lot of muscle mass from working out, on top of the fact that I smoke, I can't sleep on my sides anymore because my arms will fall asleep. I mean full-out. I've woken up and had zero feeling from my shoulder to my fingertips and I have "flop" my arm into the wall until I get the pins and needles and regain control of it. I've only slept on my back for the last 20 or so years.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I've dealt with that for 20years or so. Wake up and my entire arm from shoulder to fingers would be numb. Have to bang it on the bed to get the feeling back. My trouble though is caused by what I feel is nerve damage in my neck due to the brain tumour and the pressure it was exerting before the surgery and then after effects of the surgery. It is not a nice feeling to wake up to.

Oh... do I feel for you. It's been a while since it happened bad to me, but that's only because I sleep only on my back every night and I'm fortunate enough not to be the type to roll around after I actually get to sleep (after those hypnic jerks stop for the night).

I remember the first time it happened. I jumped up out of bed and was freaking the hell out and imagining I'd have to get the whole arm amputated or something. Literally whipping my body back and forth to throw the dead arm into a pole in my grandma's basement I was living in at the time until I finally got the worst pins and needles sensation I'd ever felt and finally got control of my arm again.

I really hope you don't go through that often. :(

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:14 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Well... if I could afford a sleep study like my brother did, maybe I'd do it. But, yanno...

Oh, just fwiw I didn't have a sleep study, it was just a regular EEG to check for seizure disorder (since that was the most concerning possibility). It took less than an hour. They're not cheap either, but not nearly as time-consuming or expensive as a sleep study!

I also think with a little sleuthing you could probably figure out what's going on, by noticing what comes before, during, and after ... And I think you could probably help it go away by moderating your habits a bit. But anyway ...

Quote:
I too, have suffered from insomnia since I was 5 years old. I remember specifically feeling a sense of abandonment every night when everybody else would easily fall asleep and I'd be up with my own thoughts until 1 or 2 AM almost every school night at a very young age.

Funny thing is, I don't really have insomnia anymore. Just all these other issues, compounded by the fact that I can rarely go a full night without having to go to the bathroom (which I've learned never to have a cigarette otherwise I won't get back to sleep for hours).

I don't think there's really any big mystery behind any of it. Even though I've been sober for three years and haven't smoked any weed for about five, I still smoke a lot and I actually drink about 3 times as much coffee than I used to ever since I stopped drinking. Maybe it is sleep apnea, but in the case of my brother the reason he was sent to get a sleep study is because his regular doctor visit was so terrible they wanted to know what was going on. I'm sure my visit today would not be as good as it was last year, but last visit turned up great for everything. Even when I was working and I had that great visit, I still had these jerks that would prevent me from sleeping. They do happen quite a bit more often now though...

In fact, my old man just woke me up from an early sleep tonight.

Well DANG!

Quote:
I haven't been getting very good sleep recently and staying up real late along with getting up early in the morning, so tonight when I finished work I cooked my dinner about 4 hours earlier than usual and would have gone right to sleep if I didn't have about 2 or 3 more jerks... but I finally made it and then the phone woke me up. :)

DOUBLE DANG!

Quote:

BTW... My bedroom doors are finished and hung. That looks nice. :)

And tomorrow I'll get my tables back. I just didn't feel like doing it tonight... and I still don't.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 12:16 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I was talking with some relatives back east - one cousin has been coughing since November. I shouldn't feel too bad about still coughing and being tired after a couple of weeks.

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Well... if I could afford a sleep study like my brother did, maybe I'd do it. But, yanno...

I too, have suffered from insomnia since I was 5 years old. I remember specifically feeling a sense of abandonment every night when everybody else would easily fall asleep and I'd be up with my own thoughts until 1 or 2 AM almost every school night at a very young age.

Well, I know when I was a kid it was just too HOT to get to sleep, at least in the summer. But I got to the "insomnia" thing later. I was seven or eight, maybe, pondering the imponderables until the wee hours of the morning ... It's a big scary universe, nobody can protect me. What is reality? Who am I, really? After about a year of that, I learned to fall asleep just to escape those thoughts.

Quote:
Funny thing is, I don't really have insomnia anymore. Just all these other issues, compounded by the fact that I can rarely go a full night without having to go to the bathroom

Welcome to the club!

Quote:
I don't think there's really any big mystery behind any of it. Even though I've been sober for three years and haven't smoked any weed for about five, I still smoke a lot and I actually drink about 3 times as much coffee than I used to ever since I stopped drinking. Maybe it is sleep apnea, but in the case of my brother the reason he was sent to get a sleep study is because his regular doctor visit was so terrible they wanted to know what was going on. I'm sure my visit today would not be as good as it was last year, but last visit turned up great for everything. Even when I was working and I had that great visit, I still had these jerks that would prevent me from sleeping. They do happen quite a bit more often now though...

In fact, my old man just woke me up from an early sleep tonight. I haven't been getting very good sleep recently and staying up real late along with getting up early in the morning, so tonight when I finished work I cooked my dinner about 4 hours earlier than usual and would have gone right to sleep if I didn't have about 2 or 3 more jerks... but I finally made it and then the phone woke me up. :)

Well your problem is partly situational. But it sounds like anxiety is driving you, too. Instead of wrecking your sleep and potentially your health, is there a more direct way of addressing the things that make you anxious? I mean, I know that you're working hard to fix the things you can fix, but are there things that you worry that you CAN'T fix?

*****

I have a question about that closet you've been asking about. I have to say I don't understand why, or in what way, you believe the shape would be "weird". You have a 15'X15' room. The typical closet is about 25" deep (interior space, has to accommodate a clothes hangar plus clothes and a few inches room) add about 4" for frame and door ... anyway, a closet down the entire length of one wall would be more than adequate for husband and wife. There are a few things I, personally, would appreciate that they don't normally build nowadays. Usually, there is a shelf above the clothes rod, but because it's hard to access most people use it for things like blankets, luggage, sports equipment etc. I would prefer that to be a separate cabinet with its own door because that way those doors will almost always be closed and the items up there wouldn't get dusty. Then, women appreciate certain kinds of built-ins: cubbies or shelves for shoes, purses, and other non-hanging items. Also, since most hanging items are short (Tshirts, shirts, jackets) a part of the closet can accommodate double rods (one over the other). And finally ... drawers below the waist, shelves above... makes access easier.

Maybe look into "Love it or List It" or some of the other shows to look at the various closets and see what appeals to people?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I can't sleep on my sides at all. I used to every night when I was a kid, but around my early to mid 20's when I put on a lot of muscle mass from working out, on top of the fact that I smoke, I can't sleep on my sides anymore because my arms will fall asleep. I mean full-out. I've woken up and had zero feeling from my shoulder to my fingertips and I have "flop" my arm into the wall until I get the pins and needles and regain control of it. I've only slept on my back for the last 20 or so years.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

I've dealt with that for 20years or so. Wake up and my entire arm from shoulder to fingers would be numb. Have to bang it on the bed to get the feeling back. My trouble though is caused by what I feel is nerve damage in my neck due to the brain tumour and the pressure it was exerting before the surgery and then after effects of the surgery. It is not a nice feeling to wake up to.

Oh... do I feel for you. It's been a while since it happened bad to me, but that's only because I sleep only on my back every night and I'm fortunate enough not to be the type to roll around after I actually get to sleep (after those hypnic jerks stop for the night).

I remember the first time it happened. I jumped up out of bed and was freaking the hell out and imagining I'd have to get the whole arm amputated or something. Literally whipping my body back and forth to throw the dead arm into a pole in my grandma's basement I was living in at the time until I finally got the worst pins and needles sensation I'd ever felt and finally got control of my arm again.

I really hope you don't go through that often. :(

Do Right, Be Right. :)

First time it happened to me it freaked me out as well but once I realized what was happening I just banged my arm on the bed till the feeling came back.

It doesn't happen too often but still annoying when it does.

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well your problem is partly situational. But it sounds like anxiety is driving you, too. Instead of wrecking your sleep and potentially your health, is there a more direct way of addressing the things that make you anxious? I mean, I know that you're working hard to fix the things you can fix, but are there things that you worry that you CAN'T fix?

Yeah... I've got two speeds. 200% or 0%. That's about it.

There are just so many things that I can fix. I need to get that down to a more managable level first. I told my dad that I decided that even though I like the idea of spackling everything at once, and painting as much as possible, I need to get everything else done upstairs before I even start working on the windows. That's going to be a huge task I don't want to rush and it was making the current work feel overwhelming for me. They will not even be started until all of the 2nd level baseboard and trim are complete. Getting my dentures finally done next week should be a load off as well...

As for not worrying about things I can't fix, I think I'm doing a pretty good job of that these days. These political issues have become more of a joke to me than anything else. And I don't let the fact that the government is spying on everybody all the time bother me anymore at all either. Me and a few other billion people, right? Whatever.

Quote:
I have a question about that closet you've been asking about. I have to say I don't understand why, or in what way, you believe the shape would be "weird". You have a 15'X15' room. The typical closet is about 25" deep (interior space, has to accommodate a clothes hangar plus clothes and a few inches room) add about 4" for frame and door ... anyway, a closet down the entire length of one wall would be more than adequate for husband and wife. There are a few things I, personally, would appreciate that they don't normally build nowadays. Usually, there is a shelf above the clothes rod, but because it's hard to access most people use it for things like blankets, luggage, sports equipment etc. I would prefer that to be a separate cabinet with its own door because that way those doors will almost always be closed and the items up there wouldn't get dusty. Then, women appreciate certain kinds of built-ins: cubbies or shelves for shoes, purses, and other non-hanging items. Also, since most hanging items are short (Tshirts, shirts, jackets) a part of the closet can accommodate double rods (one over the other). And finally ... drawers below the waist, shelves above... makes access easier.

Maybe look into "Love it or List It" or some of the other shows to look at the various closets and see what appeals to people?

I found a mock up I made in paint years ago, to illustrate the "weird" shape of the closet. Keep in mind that I wasn't using any sort of legitimate arcitect or CAD program, so although the measurements are correct, the illustration of them is not.

That "box" on the left side is actually quite a bit wider than it looks in the picture. In the picture it looks like a tiny inconvenient nub, but at 18" compared to the 37.5" of deep space to the right of it, it is actually about 1/3rd of the closet. Even more, if you consider that the closet begins immediately on the left wall, but there are 7.5" of the right side hidden.

(If you look at where I put the arrow up/down on the floor with the 42" deep, that's probably where that annoying nub would come to in reality.

Even where the nub is, the closet is fairly deep at 26.5", but to the right of it it's a full 42" deep. There's a lot of potential to waste a lot of that space if I don't do this right.

Keep in mind too, that there will be bi-fold doors on either side that block about five inches on either side when they are completely folded up. That's about 12" to 13" lost from direct view on the right side of the closet.

I've looked at quite a few different sites for ideas, but nobody else seems to have this "problem" and I haven't really found anything that gave me a good idea how to use this space.

EDIT: Oh..... I forgot to mention that the previous owners just had a double shelf on top. One in the back where it was deep and you couldn't reach anything, with a full one in the front. They also had a clothes rack in the front under the front shelf... so all of that extra space in the back was just wasted. Probably would have only been good if ET was visiting and he needed a good place to hide.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 1:00 PM

Sore legs had to walk down and up 10 flights of stairs yesterday. Elevators were out as they were doing routine work on them. Not fun.

Also I am having some trouble with stupid thing.

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:20 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

What is the source of that "box", SIX? Is it part of another room? Just curious.

Yes, I see what you mean by odd shape. I can think of a few things to do ... for example, the space in front of the "box" is actually deep enuf for hanging clothes, si you might be able to put in a tall shelf, and two clothes rods (one over the other) preserving nearly all of the remaining space which ... seems hard to fill efficiently but could be something like a walk-in. Definitely needs some thought, and visualization is not in my wheelhouse! But, I'll give it a try.

*****

NAH, I don't mean worrying about politics or the surveillance state. I post about it, but it's not something that worries me overall. More like practical things ... what are your plans for retirement? How will you get medical care? Are there any jobs that you could get to supplement your savings? (Right now seeing money going out, not coming in.) I admit I was worried that you quit your job, and still am worried that you don't have one lined up. The economy could go sour pretty quickly, and jobs might not be so easy to find. (I have a very Depression-era attitude towards jobs which is ... hang on for all you've got, and don't let go until you have another one lined up. The people that we have employed were IMHO far too casual with their jobs and are now paying for the fact that they quit to live the free life ... and they kind of expect us to bail them out, while we're just trying to save money for daughter's future.) So not sure if your worries line up with mine, but there are long-term things that I would be planning for if I were in your shoes. They would cetainly be on my mind!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 2:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Sore legs had to walk down and up 10 flights of stairs yesterday. Elevators were out as they were doing routine work on them. Not fun.

Also I am having some trouble with stupid thing.

Jezz, that's more exercise than I get in a month! Good for muscle tone but- oy vey!!!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:04 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That right-hand wall in blue - is that a freestanding wall sticking out into the room or is it part of the bedroom interior walls? If it's a freestanding wall, how much space is there to the bedroom wall to the right? In other words - could you take down that wall and extend the closet rightward all the way to the room wall?

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 3:05 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh Brenda! What a chore!!!

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What is the source of that "box", SIX? Is it part of another room? Just curious.

Nah... that's essentially the "center" of the house... Really, the stairs are, but that's right next to them and it's where the pipes going up into the roof are and right above the water heater in the basement. Nothing can be done about it.

Quote:
Yes, I see what you mean by odd shape. I can think of a few things to do ... for example, the space in front of the "box" is actually deep enuf for hanging clothes, si you might be able to put in a tall shelf, and two clothes rods (one over the other) preserving nearly all of the remaining space which ... seems hard to fill efficiently but could be something like a walk-in. Definitely needs some thought, and visualization is not in my wheelhouse! But, I'll give it a try.

I'll see if I can get an actual pic up in the next few days and you can look at the other picture to get an idea of the actual measurements we're working with.

Quote:
*****

NAH, I don't mean worrying about politics or the surveillance state. I post about it, but it's not something that worries me overall. More like practical things ... what are your plans for retirement? How will you get medical care?

I don't care about any of that. I'll deal with that when the time comes. I can live on next to nearly nothing right now. I don't plan on actually paying any medical bills when I'm old. Let them destroy my credit at that point. I'm always going to have a house that's paid for no matter where that is. I just can't get sick before I'm in my final house.

Quote:
Are there any jobs that you could get to supplement your savings? (Right now seeing money going out, not coming in.) I admit I was worried that you quit your job, and still am worried that you don't have one lined up.

Nah. I got laid off. Unemployment is gone now though. I've managed to pay all of my bills and do all of this work though and I'm only down a little bit. The dentures are going to take a huge chunk out of what I've got though, and there's nothing coming in anymore. I'm going to find some bullshit part time work after I adapt to the new normal. If I can manage to make $550 per month after taxes somewhere I'll be able to keep paying all the bills and putting money into the house without dipping into savings.

Quote:
The economy could go sour pretty quickly, and jobs might not be so easy to find. (I have a very Depression-era attitude towards jobs which is ... hang on for all you've got, and don't let go until you have another one lined up. The people that we have employed were IMHO far too casual with their jobs and are now paying for the fact that they quit to live the free life ... and they kind of expect us to bail them out, while we're just trying to save money for daughter's future.) So not sure if your worries line up with mine, but there are long-term things that I would be planning for if I were in your shoes. They would cetainly be on my mind!

I would imagine our money worries are quite a bit different. I don't worry about money, even though I don't have much and I don't really have any prospects to make much.

That's the beauty of working at the bottom. If I don't like what I'm doing I can just quit and find another shitty job. I feel I made the most of my unemployment though, and I am in a much better state of mind than I was when I first got laid off and I had a massive hoard taking up every room in my house, a porch that was falling apart and the racoons and ants and mice were taking over the house. Now that I've shored all of that up all the money I put into the house at this point is going to give me 5 to 10 times the money back when I sell the place.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
That right-hand wall in blue - is that a freestanding wall sticking out into the room or is it part of the bedroom interior walls? If it's a freestanding wall, how much space is there to the bedroom wall to the right? In other words - could you take down that wall and extend the closet rightward all the way to the room wall?

No. The wall in blue on the right is outside of the room.

About 2 feet right of this closet is the door to the hallway. On the other side of that wall is the back of the tiny ass linen closet in the hallway that is only 9 1/2" deep. If I would do anything, I would actually knock that down and put it back the 7.5" to make the master bedroom closet flush with the door and the linen closet would actually be deep enough to put bath towels inside of it. (But I'm not doing that because it's a crazy amount of work, I'd have to put some more hardwood flooring in where the wall was moved, and I'd imagine that the wall itself is load bearing and it wouldn't be a good idea anyhow).

Like I told Sigs, I'll get a few pictures snapped of the closet as well as everything wrapping around into the hallway. It's hard to really visualize anything just by my crappy little mockup and my words. When I have the actual picture of the closet you can see exactly how much room is in there by looking at the diagram I made though since those measurements are accurate.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Sore legs had to walk down and up 10 flights of stairs yesterday. Elevators were out as they were doing routine work on them. Not fun.

Also I am having some trouble with stupid thing.
Jezz, that's more exercise than I get in a month! Good for muscle tone but- oy vey!!!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

Had no choice. Things to do. But yeah oy vey! is right.

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Oh Brenda! What a chore!!!

It was but like I said to Sig. I had things to do. So I have to put up with sore muscles for a few days.

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Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:11 PM

Rain, rain, rain.

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What is the source of that "box", SIX? Is it part of another room? Just curious.

SIX: Nah... that's essentially the "center" of the house... Really, the stairs are, but that's right next to them and it's where the pipes going up into the roof are and right above the water heater in the basement. Nothing can be done about it.

So it's a pipe chase? Ok.

Quote:
SIGNY: Yes, I see what you mean by odd shape. ... Definitely needs some thought, and visualization is not in my wheelhouse! But, I'll give it a try.

SIX: I'll see if I can get an actual pic up in the next few days and you can look at the other picture to get an idea of the actual measurements we're working with.

That would be great!

Quote:
SIGNY: NAH, I don't mean worrying about politics or the surveillance state. I post about it, but it's not something that worries me overall. More like practical things ... what are your plans for retirement? How will you get medical care?

SIX: I don't care about any of that.

Oh dear. And that's why I worry about you. Not that there's anything I can do about it, but I've never seen that approach end well.

Quote:
SIX: I would imagine our money worries are quite a bit different. I don't worry about money, even though I don't have much and I don't really have any prospects to make much.

That's the beauty of working at the bottom. If I don't like what I'm doing I can just quit and find another shitty job.

I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I just can't. Maybe because of personality differences, or maybe because we have a child to think about, but I can't imagine NOT planning for the future in some substantial way. Plus, I know two guys who are about 30 years older than you and they had the same attitude and now they need someone to rescue them. I know the system is rigged, but you have a lot of advantages ... you're smart, you're a real quick learner, I feel you could do a lot of things if you put your mind to it, and you shouldn't be at the bottom. A lot of people are where they are because they spend money recklessly or because they don't have your natural talents ... that's not you.

But maybe you're in the best position to weather the upcoming storm. You're younger, you're fit, you know a lot of useful things; if all else fails you could be the fixit guru, doing small tool repair or what-have-you. Me, I'm old and sick.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Speaking of old and sick: the doctor's visit today was exhausting. Not that she did anything unusual but all of that driving and talking and coughing just wore me out.

I have to go back tomorrow; she has a couple of additional meds to control the asthma better plus I showed her a picture of the goop coming from my lungs and she wants a chest xray to make sure I don't have a bacterial pneumonia. Plus some blood tests; she suspects an immune system problem for which there are treatments. If she can get to the bottom of all of this and figure out why my system goes nuts over innocuous things like lettuce but then can't seem to clear a staph aureus infection I'll be way happier.

Sign me: Sick and tired of being sick and tired.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 3:33 AM

Think I figured out the problem with this thing. Found that the cable was coming out of my computer. The one from the modem to the computer, so I pushed it back and it seems to be behaving itself for now. So, new rule for me. No dishes near the cable hook up into the computer as I think they were getting hooked on it and pulling it out which I never noticed till today.

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIX: Nah... that's essentially the "center" of the house... Really, the stairs are, but that's right next to them and it's where the pipes going up into the roof are and right above the water heater in the basement. Nothing can be done about it.

Quote:
SIGNYM: So it's a pipe chase? Ok.

Is that what they call it? Sure then.

Quote:
SIX: I'll see if I can get an actual pic up in the next few days and you can look at the other picture to get an idea of the actual measurements we're working with.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM: That would be great!

Working on it now.

Quote:
SIX: I don't care about any of that.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM: Oh dear. And that's why I worry about you. Not that there's anything I can do about it, but I've never seen that approach end well.

Yeah, well... I see how people at the bottom live around here and it's not entirely terrible, well... addictions and other poor life choices aside that is. A guy I did some work with for an old friend a while back is 60 years old and just working odd's 'n ends jobs for two more years until he gets SSI. He says that's still barely enough to cover his rent, but it will be a huge help. He is drunk by noon on any given day, yet manages to still do really good work. He won't wear masks when doing demo and he smokes. You can tell he's not in great health. But he's living right now in an apartment with a wife that doesn't work at all and a daughter who is 23 years old who contributes with her part time work. I feel bad for all of their situation, but he's got gas to get him where he's going and he's not starving.

He's also driving out of county to get a "deal" on his cigarettes at $8 a pack. I was really trying to convince him to roll his own since it's less than $1 a pack when you do it. I can't say for sure, but I'm willing to bet that his wife smokes too, and there's a pretty good chance the daughter does as well, statistically speaking.

Even at the bottom, they aren't making wise financial choices with their vices of all things. Say they all smoked 1 pack per day. That's $24 per day. If they rolled, that would be $3 per day. That would be a savings of $7,665 after-tax dollars per year, which is only $2,000 short of the SSI money he'll get in 2 years that will "barely pay the rent". Imagine what the three of them could do with an extra $7,665 per year that they're not able to do now, especially once the SSI comes in.

Quote:
SIX: I would imagine our money worries are quite a bit different. I don't worry about money, even though I don't have much and I don't really have any prospects to make much.

That's the beauty of working at the bottom. If I don't like what I'm doing I can just quit and find another shitty job.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM: I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and I just can't. Maybe because of personality differences, or maybe because we have a child to think about, but I can't imagine NOT planning for the future in some substantial way. Plus, I know two guys who are about 30 years older than you and they had the same attitude and now they need someone to rescue them.

I just don't see myself needing any rescuing. I started living like I had nothing back when I was living in my grandma's basement with the two cats that pissed all over the place. Then, when I got my last great job I saved every cent of it I could and put myself into the position I'm in now.

I'm frugal to a fault. It's amazing what you can make your money do for you if you work at it. All of these fixes and upgrades I've done to the house so far, including a lot of paint and materials I haven't even begun to use for future projects as I continue to get work done have only been less than $2,000. Winter heating bills suck, but on any given month my bills and food are $360 on average. It's $480 a month if you include property taxes and car insurance and registration.

Sure... I have to keep my computers and my car together with duct tape and bubble gum, but that's nothing new to me. I was doing that when I made $60k per year (benefits included) as well.

As far as being "rescued", I'm about to pull another of my teeth out in a few days before I get the rest of them yanked by a professional to save myself $130. lol

I'm not going to say that I never was scared about the future. That' probably contributed to my drinking for all of those years. But it turns out I'm a lot more capable than I gave myself credit for.

Quote:
I know the system is rigged, but you have a lot of advantages ... you're smart, you're a real quick learner, I feel you could do a lot of things if you put your mind to it, and you shouldn't be at the bottom. A lot of people are where they are because they spend money recklessly or because they don't have your natural talents ... that's not you.

Yeah... I shouldn't be at the bottom, but it's not all that bad. I wouldn't be learning new things every day like I am if I wasn't. Maybe my computer isn't fast enough to play new games that I'm interested in, but do I really have the time right now to be sinking into playing games?

Quote:
But maybe you're in the best position to weather the upcoming storm. You're younger, you're fit, you know a lot of useful things; if all else fails you could be the fixit guru, doing small tool repair or what-have-you. Me, I'm old and sick.

Well... I'm youngish and healtyish. One thing that is for sure is that both my youth and my health will run out one day.

I'm not going to worry about it though. Not to get too dark, but when the day comes that I can no longer do for myself or living every day is unbearable because the cancer is eating me alive or some other medical emergency goes without help because I don't have insurance, there's always "self tooth extraction" for that.

All I can do is hope that is a very, very long time from now. No sense in worrying about things I have no control over, especially when I've decided that I'm not going to work a full time job I hate, working for people that I hate for the rest of my life just for health insurance.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:47 AM

Alright... Picture time.

I took a few extra snaps here, going around the closet into the hallway so you can get a picture of how the two closets and the bedroom/hallway all tie into each other. I get to show off the work a bit too.

REPOST OF DIAGRAM WITH MEASUREMENTS:

Here's the closet with only the left bi-fold door up. These are terribly hard to put back up, so I'm hoping I can build the closet without having to take the left one down. Unfortunately, I forgot to photograph it with the door closed so you could see the awesome 45 degree angle I made for the return nearly butted right up against the door. It looks great.

Here's just another angle on the closet for some perspective.

And here's a shot with my refinished, bright, shiny white bedroom door that leads out to the hall. Can you tell that this POS was probably as old as I am and had holes in it? Everything is caulked and once I get the spackle up on the nail holes the trim will all get one final coat of paint. You can hardly see the nail holes on the picture, but they're more visible IRL.

In this image the door is open, so you can see into the hallway. The bi-fold to the left of the nail gun on the ground is the linen closet I was talking about that butts right up to the right side of the bedroom closet. (That bi-fold will close completely, but I want to wait a few weeks at least to let the paint totally cure before having any of them completely closed for more than a few seconds so the paint doesn't stick together).

And finally, a shot into the linen closet itself. As you can see, it's not much better than worthless. Sure, it's nice to have a hidden place to buy my bulk purchases of smaller things, but at only 9 1/2" deep, you're not going to be putting all of your towels in there. I have to devote one half of one of my dressers for that unfortunately.

Nice shelves though, huh? Can you believe that is original wood that had rough edges and was covered in an awful turquoise flower print veneer, that was also put on every square inch of the walls inside as well?

I only even have vague recollections of doing that since I was drinking all the way back then as well, though not to the severe degree that happened later. I do remember using my router to make rounded edges for them on the bottom of the front of the shelves before staining them and putting a few coats of poly I had left over from when I did the hardwood floors. It's interesting how much darker they turned out than the floor since it's a much softer wood.

The glass you see on top is a nice touch, but really just decorative. I didn't shell out any money for them. A friend at the old job said that they were getting rid of a coffee table that had four pieces of glass. Unfortunately 1 broke before I got them, so the top shelf doesn't have one. It just so happened that they were exactly 9 1/2" wide, so they fit perfectly in there. But they don't go all the way to the walls, and they have 45 degree angles on them behind the door that you can't see as well. Anything I think might leak goes on the glass. Nothing but toilet paper and toothbrushes and the like on any shelving that doesn't have glass.

Oh... and I had to patch a hole in the door too since I had to move the knob hardware to the middle of the door. The idiots who came before me put it all the way on the right like it's a standard door which made it almost impossible to open or close without using two hands and finagling it. Works great now.

Any ideas you all have for that closet would be awfully appreciated. I'm kind of at a loss here. The shape/size seems to be the worst of all worlds.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

First of all .... nice trim work, SIX. The hardwood floors and trim are going to be a real selling point. If I were walking thru that area, that's what I would be focusing on. Assuming that the windows turn out as good as everything else, those would be a real plus. However, as an experienced homeowner, I would also be looking at the quality of the windows themselves ... single pane? Casement?

OK, about that closet ... the pictures do make things clearer. The space on the left of the bi-fold is 26.5" wide (or deep). It can accomodate 2 clothes rods (high,low) with one end of each rod anchored in the 18" section of the chase wall, and the other end anchored in a (built) support right behind the bifold door. That creates approximately four feet (25" X 2) hanging space for shirts and skirts. Shelf on the bottom for shoes. The back wall likewise can accommodate a clothes rod for taller items (dresses, slacks, coats) but I would build a shelf 10" wide and 12" deep on the 15" part of the chase wall because otherwise if you have clothes hanging on the side wall and clothes hanging on the back wall they'll foul each other in the corner when you try and remove them. So that leaves another approximately two feet (37"-approx 10") of hanging space ... six feet all together. You can build drawers under the single clothes rod

That 7.5" spot could use maybe clothes hooks

This shows how double closet rod creates more storage space

This is just pretty

In fact. a lot of good ideas here
https://www.familyhandyman.com/closet/easy-ways-to-expand-your-closet-
space/

I sure hope that helps!!
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Alright... Picture time.

REPOST OF DIAGRAM WITH MEASUREMENTS:

The depth one needs for hanging clothes is about 24". So starting with that figure, you've got good enough space for a single or double (or partially single / double) rod across the front. Unfortunately that leaves an awkward space to the right of the chase in the rear. And you only have about 18" depth left over from the front rack, so there's not enough depth left over to put another side to side rod in. But 18" is a good measurement for a set of shelves there.

An alternative for that right rear space is that you could put in short rods front-to-back.

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 4:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

He could put a clothes rod across the back. Altho you need 24" depth for clothes, the actual rod needs to be only 13-14" from the back wall

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
First of all .... nice trim work, SIX.

Thanks.

Quote:
The hardwood floors and trim are going to be a real selling point. If I were walking thru that area, that's what I would be focusing on.

Yup. That's why I'm thinking once everything is done upstairs I'm going to move out of the living room so I can really give it the same treatment that I did the bedrooms. The walls thruought this house were terrible, with layer upon layer of paint just covering imperfections everywhere. If all I do is paint the living room it's just going to look like shitty walls with yet another layer of paint on them. Fortunately, that's the only room left in the house that I still have to do that for. I already did the kitchen on the 1st floor. I might even rent a machine and sand the hardwood down on the 1st floor and re-stain and poly it like I did upstairs. It's not nearly as bad as the floors upstairs were, but the living room is the first room you see if you're coming in the front door.

Quote:
Assuming that the windows turn out as good as everything else, those would be a real plus. However, as an experienced homeowner, I would also be looking at the quality of the windows themselves ... single pane? Casement?

What exactly is casement? They're all those vinyl newer windows, double pane. They're definately not super high quality Feldco windows though, although they're working fine and much lower maintenance than old wooden windows.

Speaking of which, one of the windows in the living room is wood,and is sealed shut. I always wondered why that was when the rest of the house is vinyl. I plan on removing that window and putting a new one in... I'm just hoping that there isn't a problem there that prevented this from being done before.

Quote:
OK, about that closet ... the pictures do make things clearer. The space on the left of the bi-fold is 26.5" wide (or deep). It can accomodate 2 clothes rods (high,low) with one end of each rod anchored in the 18" section of the chase wall, and the other end anchored in a (built) support right behind the bifold door. That creates approximately four feet (25" X 2) hanging space for shirts and skirts. Shelf on the bottom for shoes. The back wall likewise can accommodate a clothes rod for taller items (dresses, slacks, coats) but I would build a shelf 10" wide and 12" deep on the 15" part of the chase wall because otherwise if you have clothes hanging on the side wall and clothes hanging on the back wall they'll foul each other in the corner when you try and remove them. So that leaves another approximately two feet (37"-approx 10") of hanging space ... six feet all together. You can build drawers under the single clothes rod

That 7.5" spot could use maybe clothes hooks

This shows how double closet rod creates more storage space
(imaged removed for reply formatting)

This is just pretty
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Agreed. Too pretty for me though. :)

Quote:
In fact. a lot of good ideas here
https://www.familyhandyman.com/closet/easy-ways-to-expand-your-closet-
space/

I'll check that site out.

Quote:
I sure hope that helps!!

Thanks for the suggestions.

I don't know if putting clothes on the left side is the best idea though, although I do like the idea of the double racks there and the single taller rack on the right (it would also be a lot less shelf building on my part).

My concern is the bifold door there. The space is deep enough, but without having it right in front of me now I would guess that there is at least 5" of dead space on the left side when the bifold door is open full.

Now I read somewhere you only need like 22.5" depth for clothes, but you're saying 24". I've only got 26.5" depth there on that left side, so if it really is 24" that would only leave 2" in the front to reach back and behind the open bi-fold door for any clothes all the way on the left side of the rack.

I actually really like your suggestions and it would be a lot easier than building an entire shelving unit like I was considering doing on that left side. I was just wondering what you thought about my trepidation here.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 6:48 PM

I got all of the tricky baseboards up today, save for one. So except for the closets themselves, all of the baseboards in both bedrooms is finally done. Everything in the hallway is done now too, except for a short run to an outside 45 degree that wraps around to the stairs. I'm actually not sure how I'm doing the stair border itself yet... If I'm going to put the old quarterround back up or possibly rip the top part of my new baseboards to cap it off. That would look better, but it's a lot more work and I have to make sure I have enough baseboard since I wasn't accounting for that and I can no longer buy any new ones.

At this point, I think I need to finish what I've started, and treat everything else as its own separate project. That would mean spackling all the nail holes tomorrow morning, sanding them when they're dry and painting all of the existing casing fronts and baseboard. Everything is already caulked and dry.

If I got that done, it would all be behind me and my individual projects would be what is left...

Master Bedroom Closet.
2nd Bedroom Closet.
Stairway to 2nd floor.
4 Windows.
Painting both the bathroom door and attic door (when it is warm enough not to have an attic door).

Then, eventually, a bathroom remodel. Probably nothing really too serious. Just a new vanity, ceramic tile floor to replace the existing vinyl crap, and re-seating the existing toilet before giving the walls and trim a nice paint job. I can't use the new trim I bought for the rest of the house in there because it's a fairly small bathroom and the distance between the window and the shower would not accommodate window casings as large as there will be everywhere else.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Casement is a window configuration, where the window is attached on the side with hinges and opens outward like a door.

There are windows that slide past each other either side to side, or vertically.windows that hinge at the top (awning) and windows that open at the bottom (hopper)

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Not sure I understand about the clothes rods on the side. The rods would be along the wall, the hanging clothes would be facing the front, they would take up that 18" space and then some. It might look a little akward because the bifold door would be covering up the sleeve of the front hanging item but I think it might make up in practicality what it lacks in looks

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:32 PM

Eyes tired and going all over the place. Long Thursday again.

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Thursday, January 23, 2020 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Casement is a window configuration, where the window is attached on the side with hinges and opens outward like a door.

There are windows that slide past each other either side to side, or vertically.windows that hinge at the top (awning) and windows that open at the bottom (hopper)

They're the ones that slide vertically past each other. I can either lower the top one or raise the bottom one. I didn't even realize that I could lower the top one in my bathroom and the screen was up there. I always used to keep that window closed since I thought there was no screen.

I hope those are in style, because I'm certainly not changing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not sure I understand about the clothes rods on the side. The rods would be along the wall, the hanging clothes would be facing the front, they would take up that 18" space and then some. It might look a little akward because the bifold door would be covering up the sleeve of the front hanging item but I think it might make up in practicality what it lacks in looks

Oh... so you mean the poles would be coming toward you when you open the door on the left side? I misunderstood what you said. That would probably work. I thought you meant parallel to the back wall, where it would bury clothes on both poles that were behind the bi-fold door.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, January 24, 2020 3:43 AM

Got a project to get started on over the weekend. Have to take a part a video cabinet.

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Friday, January 24, 2020 3:56 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
He could put a clothes rod across the back. Altho you need 24" depth for clothes, the actual rod needs to be only 13-14" from the back wall

That's where I got lost. You need an entire ~24" from one shoulder of the hanger to the other shoulder. If you put a rod side-to-side across the back between the chase and the righthand-wall, while the rod need only by ~12" from the back wall, the front portion the the hangers (and their clothes) will intrude on the clothes that are on the rod that goes across the front of the closet side-to-side.

So ... not understanding this post.

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Friday, January 24, 2020 4:11 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yup. That's why I'm thinking once everything is done upstairs I'm going to move out of the living room so I can really give it the same treatment that I did the bedrooms. The walls thruought this house were terrible, with layer upon layer of paint just covering imperfections everywhere. If all I do is paint the living room it's just going to look like shitty walls with yet another layer of paint on them. Fortunately, that's the only room left in the house that I still have to do that for. I already did the kitchen on the 1st floor. I might even rent a machine and sand the hardwood down on the 1st floor and re-stain and poly it like I did upstairs. It's not nearly as bad as the floors upstairs were, but the living room is the first room you see if you're coming in the front door.

Yeah, I just want to comment as well on how nice the floors and trim look!

Quote:
Speaking of which, one of the windows in the living room is wood,and is sealed shut. I always wondered why that was when the rest of the house is vinyl. I plan on removing that window and putting a new one in... I'm just hoping that there isn't a problem there that prevented this from being done before.

Oh the never-ending mysteries of home ownership!

Quote:
OK, about that closet ... the pictures do make things clearer. The space on the left of the bi-fold is 26.5" wide (or deep). It can accomodate 2 clothes rods (high,low) with one end of each rod anchored in the 18" section of the chase wall, and the other end anchored in a (built) support right behind the bifold door. That creates approximately four feet (25" X 2) hanging space for shirts and skirts. Shelf on the bottom for shoes. The back wall likewise can accommodate a clothes rod for taller items (dresses, slacks, coats) but I would build a shelf 10" wide and 12" deep on the 15" part of the chase wall because otherwise if you have clothes hanging on the side wall and clothes hanging on the back wall they'll foul each other in the corner when you try and remove them. So that leaves another approximately two feet (37"-approx 10") of hanging space ... six feet all together. You can build drawers under the single clothes rod

That 7.5" spot could use maybe clothes hooks

This shows how double closet rod creates more storage space
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This is just pretty
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Quote:
Agreed. Too pretty for me though. :)

Quote:
In fact. a lot of good ideas here
https://www.familyhandyman.com/closet/easy-ways-to-expand-your-closet-
space/

Quote:
I'll check that site out.

Quote:
I sure hope that helps!!

Quote:
Thanks for the suggestions.

I don't know if putting clothes on the left side is the best idea though, although I do like the idea of the double racks there and the single taller rack on the right (it would also be a lot less shelf building on my part).

I guess I'm used to rough-and-ready shelf-building - yanno, supports nailed (or screwed) into studs on either end and pine planking rest on the supports. But if you're going for a more finished built-in look, I can see how that could be some task.

Quote:
My concern is the bifold door there. The space is deep enough, but without having it right in front of me now I would guess that there is at least 5" of dead space on the left side when the bifold door is open full.

Now I read somewhere you only need like 22.5" depth for clothes

Different places say different things, but if you're going to hang something big - like a men's suit jacket - it's best to allow more space rather than less.

Quote:
but you're saying 24". I've only got 26.5" depth there on that left side, so if it really is 24" that would only leave 2" in the front to reach back and behind the open bi-fold door for any clothes all the way on the left side of the rack.

I actually really like your suggestions and it would be a lot easier than building an entire shelving unit like I was considering doing on that left side. I was just wondering what you thought about my trepidation here.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

It depends on how fancy you want those shelves to look, I think!

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Friday, January 24, 2020 5:05 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Oh... so you mean the poles would be coming toward you when you open the door on the left side? I misunderstood what you said. That would probably work. I thought you meant parallel to the back wall, where it would bury clothes on both poles that were behind the bi-fold door.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

That's how I re-read it. Signy's plan would give you 25" + 30" (55") hanging space (up to double that with high-low rods) and if I read it correctly, n x 7.5" shelves. Mine would give you 35" + 17" (52") across the front with n x 35" shelves in the back, but they'd be behind clothes and awkward to get to.

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Friday, January 24, 2020 5:05 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Clothes rods: Imagine one rod across the back of the closet from chase to wall, and two rods along the left-hand wall from chase to bifold door

KIKI: The rod across the back of the closet: A clothes hangar is approximately 24" wide from shoulder tip to shoulder tip, but it's only HALF that from center hook to shoulder tip. Hence the distance from the clothes rod to the wall only needs to be as wide as center hook to shoulder tip. There's absolutely no need to put a rod a full 24" from the wall. It could be attached at the chase and the far right-hand wall.

The rods along the lefthand side wall ... same thing. They only need to be about 14" from the wall, which is about half of the width of a hangar plus a couple of inches extra clearanace. The rod could be attached to the chase, but since there's no attachment point at the bifold door they can be attached by a bracket They even have rod brackets with shelves so no need to build and attach separate shelves

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!

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Friday, January 24, 2020 5:06 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hey Brenda - good luck with your project!

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Friday, January 24, 2020 5:10 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"There's absolutely no need to put a rod a full 24" from the wall."

You up too?

Oh, I get that measurement. I thought you were talking about and front and back side to side rods - one in the rear to the right of the chase, and one across the front, and the depth of the closet not accommodating that. I misunderstood.

Well, I'm going to take some more cough medicine and go back to bed.

Goodnight! I hope you're improved from before.

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Friday, January 24, 2020 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Got a project to get started on over the weekend. Have to take a part a video cabinet.

Take it apart?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, January 24, 2020 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
That's where I got lost. You need an entire ~24" from one shoulder of the hanger to the other shoulder. If you put a rod side-to-side across the back between the chase and the righthand-wall, while the rod need only by ~12" from the back wall, the front portion the the hangers (and their clothes) will intrude on the clothes that are on the rod that goes across the front of the closet side-to-side.

Just to be clear, the "chase" is that "boxed out" area on the left.... right?

I'm pretty sure that "chase" is going to make any solution less than optimal. I'm probably going to have to just settle for good enough here.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Yeah, I just want to comment as well on how nice the floors and trim look!

Thank you.

It should look good. It only took me 8 years to get to this point.

Quote:
Oh the never-ending mysteries of home ownership!

I've honestly had enough, but if I ever feel the need to go down another rabbit hole, I might knock down a few portions of the walls in the attic and see what's going on back there. I already know I'm going to find a lot of racoon crap, but what other mysteries lie behind those walls?

Quote:
I guess I'm used to rough-and-ready shelf-building - yanno, supports nailed (or screwed) into studs on either end and pine planking rest on the supports. But if you're going for a more finished built-in look, I can see how that could be some task.

Well... I haven't built anything like that since high school, but I enjoy this kind of work. But with so many other things that need to be done, that could be a real time sink for me now, and I think I need a morale boost by getting something actually completed. Unfortunately, there was some damage around the small bedroom windows that I'm going to need to repair, which is going to require me to repaint the room when it's all done. So even though the bedroom closet is going to be far easier by comparison otherwise, there's probably more work to do in the small bedroom still. (Windowsills are supposed to be there for a reason, and when rain gets in over the years when you're leaving the windows open to cool down over summer, and you've got garbage bags for windows hanging over them... well...)

If I can get away without making the closets too large of a project and still make them functional that is the best option for me.

Quote:
Different places say different things, but if you're going to hang something big - like a men's suit jacket - it's best to allow more space rather than less.

Well the one thing I do have an abundance of is dead space. Doesn't make any sense to not make it 24" unless there was a real dire need not to.

Quote:
It depends on how fancy you want those shelves to look, I think!

Nothing super fancy. Just want it to look nice and be functional.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Friday, January 24, 2020 10:41 AM