REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

In the garden, and RAIN!!!!

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, May 28, 2022 19:26
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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 10:57 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Oh, Signy, before it slips my mind, again, I used to wonder why Peltier coolers didn't take over the refrigeration world. While they have their uses - in small spaces for example - it turns out that they're a lot more inefficient than the standard mechanical version, and have poor recovery times after, say opening the frig door, because of low heat-removal rates. And that's saying something!, considering how inefficient mechanical cooling is!


https://www.labmanager.com/product-focus/solid-state-vs-compressor-bas
ed-cooling-5787


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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I've always imagined Peltier coolers as being useful for when you need to keep something small and medical refrigerated, like a box if vials or a transplant organ. It could run off your car's electrical sysem.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:43 PM

BRENDA


Out for my walk but my right shoulder is a little sore after yesterday.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 3:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SIGNYM:
Jeezus, JSF, you're lecturing to people who know all about refrigerants, refrigerators, all kinds of coolers (including Peltier coolers), humidity and percent moisture measurements

I think I know how to condense moisture and dry gases and how to deal with humidity and moisture calculations for.... home HVAC

The fact is that if you cool air but do not reach dew point (ie water does not condense out) relative humidity goes up.

JSF: Well, jeez. If you already understood that the Dew Point at the coils is 40 degrees F, and you already understand that the output of the A/C is 60 degrees F with an RH of 70%, which when warmed to 70 degrees F is RH 35%, and that Air Conditioners and Dehumidifiers are functionally the same, then I do not understand why you have been posting as if you are dumbfounded by the concepts.

How do I "know" this? Whether the coil condenses out moisture or not depends on the moisture content and temperature of the air coming in, and whether the coil reaches the dew point depends on the efficiency of the AC. But according to the AC guy who came to replace our compressor, you can generally expect a 20 degree drop in temp across the evap coils. So if the temp outside in 100 and the dew point is 40, then the temp coming at the coils is 80F ... far far away from any possible condensation.

And if the temp drops at night to 80, and the AC manages to cool the air to 60F, then the temp is STILL above the dew point of 40F.

Right?

No. Not right.




Based upon your prior posted replies, I had considered our exchange on this subject finished, and had not bothered to respond to the above post.
I had already ended my attempts towards discussion with kiki about the topic.

But then you posted the following, suggesting you enjoyed the discourse.

Despite you posting more (repeated, continuing) wrong, and apparently not reading the facts which I have posted, I can try to reply briefly. If you desire to dispute the facts that I am posting and have posted, no need to bother. If you have genuine and valid questions about the facts I post, feel free to entertain those.

Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Ok, let me put it this way:

Dew point is like temperature: It's a measurement of outdoor air, and has nothing to do with any specific air conditioner. If you go to wunderground.com and do a search on any los angeles zip code, and call up the 10-day forecast, you'll see lines curving up and down for temperature, "feels like", and DEW POINT.

If the temperature is 100F and the dew point is 40F, you would have to cool the air all the way down to 40F to get condensation. And unless water is condensed, moisture content will not be reduced.

Is a normal AC unit capable of cooling air from 100F to 40F?

OTOH, if the temperature is 80F and the dew point is 65F, what are the chances that an AC unit will condense water out of the air?

I DID appreciate the discussion, tho.

Why you think I implied lack of knowledge about Dew Points, I don't know. I have been adequately familiar with Dew Point since running the Barometer room in the Calibration Lab of our sensor and instrument repair shop for our airline at LAX. It was the only calibrated Standard Barometer our airline had in SoCal. I don't recall if the next nearest was SFO, Denver, or Houston.
Even before that, every calibration lab I worked at was required to maintain a humidograph.


No, the molecular composition of the refrigerant does NOT change just because external conditions have changed. No external temperature, humidity level, light or brightness, or even "temperature setting" on an Air Conditioner HMI/display will make alterations to the molecular composition of the refrigerant.
The system using refrigerants is a closed system.
No, external environmental conditions or distractions will not change the boiling point of the stable refrigerant under system compression (pressure).
No, the compression does not change based upon external environmental conditions, unless you have a variable compressor for your residential unit, which means a very, very expensive A/C, and thus a very, very expensive abode.

Perhaps you can explain to yourself how an Evaporator Coil can freeze water into a solid block while at the same time never dropping below 59 degrees F, or even never dropping below 45 degrees F.

Yes, Evaporator Coils are notoriously difficult to get an accurate reading from, and one end of the Evaporator tube may be 40 degrees F while the other end could be 60 degrees F. But kiki already admitted she measured 59 degrees F, so you need not further argue about any Dew Point above 59 unless you are arguing with her.


I have no disagreement that HVAC guys, just like auto mechanics, can be stupid, even very stupid. Maybe that guy made a situational comment, or maybe you misunderstood what or how he said. But if he really said that, then I would either A) not let him touch my A/C equipment or B) watch him like a hawk, every thing he did. If he really believed that, then he could be just blissfully ignorant, and only doing what his boss told him to do or say, to make the company money. If he knew better and was just saying that to lie to you, then he should be watched closely to ward from sabotage of your equipment. A Compressor swap is not brain surgery, no matter what algore says. You might check of he charged you for applying Prop Wash to your Fan Blades, or refilling your Blinker Fluid, or replacing your Muffler Belt.
Regardless, I would not let such a tard near Ammonia refrigeration, nor nitrogen refrigeration.

In a 70 degree space, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees. In a 110 degree environment, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees. I have seen and measured both - it is part of troubleshooting.
The outside temperature has no relation to the output temperature of an A/C. It does affect the efficiency of cooling off the Condenser. If the outside temperature is 120 degrees, and the inside temperature is at 90 degrees, then the 90 degrees is the pertinent factor that the A/C and refrigerant is chewing on. The refrigerant does not change it's own boiling point based upon either the inside temp or the outside temp.

When the boiling point of the refrigerant is 40 degrees F, then any air, regardless of temperature (unless something higher than 150 degrees) or humidity, which is forced past this Evaporator tube will continue away from the Evaporator at 40 degrees, and more importantly at 40 degrees Dew Point.
You have seen a cold beer can come out of refrigeration on a hot day? If 70 degrees outside, will condensation form on the can? (Yes.) If 110 degrees outside, will condensation form on the can? (Yes.) The only real difference is that, in stagnant (unforced) air, the 110 degrees will condense faster, practically immediately - unless the Dew Point is under 40 or 50 degrees.


Upon reviewing your post, I see you may be confused about Dew Point of A/C output air. The Dew Point of air coming out of a working A/C cannot be 100% RH. The critical factor is the INSTANTANEOUS DEW POINT of the air when it encounters the Evaporator tube containing the 40 degree refrigerant inside. The air on the exit side of this tube or Coil cannot have a dew point higher than 40 degrees. By the time it exits the A/C vent, the temp would be 60 degrees, and RH around 70% (or so).
You don't need to cool the entire room down to 40F to achieve condensation (think of a cold can), but only the instantaneous point of contact of the forced air across the 40F Evaporator Coil. The room can be 120 degrees, and the 40F coil will still form condensate - and that parcel of air will be dehumidified down to the Dew Point of 40F until it mixes with the rest of the space.

Quote:

Is a normal AC unit capable of cooling air from 100F to 40F?
If you are asking the proper question, then yes. The instantaneous cooling at the Evaporator will produce 40 degree air, and by the time it exits the A/C it will be 60 degrees, and by the time it is a foot away from the vent you can still place your hand and feel sub-70 temp, and by the time this air reaches 15 feet away from to vent in a 100 degree space, it is likely 90 or 95 degrees, largely depending upon the Blower Fan.
So if the indoor temperature is 100 degrees, the normal functioning A/C will not make the entire space 60 in an instant, but will after enough time - that amount of time is determined by the capacity or rating of the A/C - like the size of the coils, and the Blower Fan capacity. Even if the outside temp is 120 F, the A/C air will become 90 (most efficiently), then 80, then 70, then 60 (least efficiently). If the indoor temp is much below 60 degrees, then the normal A/C unit will, when running, mostly just freeze up the Evaporator Coil into a solid block of ice. Because the air does not have enough heat in it to supply the heat needed for the refrigerant to boil efficiently in the Evaporator.
At all of these temps, the air is being cooled to 40 F on the exit side of the Evaporator, but the physics of the normal residential A/C will not cool the entire space to 40 degrees without freezing up the coil. This is why a refrigerator cooling system is different than an A/C unit. And, if Freezer and Refrigerator are independent, the Freezer cooling is different as well. The targeted temp range is determined by the combination of specific refrigerant and pressure.

Quote:

OTOH, if the temperature is 80F and the dew point is 65F, what are the chances that an AC unit will condense water out of the air?
kiki has already admitted that she measured 59 degrees on her Evaporator Coil (the notoriously error-prone measurements of Evaporators would have her read 59 only if the actual temp was lower, not if the actual temp was higher.) With a temp at lest as low as 59 degrees, I think you should be able to see that any hypothetical Temperature characteristics or Dew Point higher than 59 degrees (exiting the unit) is moot. Obviously, the Dew Point in the conditioned space must be attacked piecemeal, it does not instantly change throughout the entire space.

The other argument either you or kiki seems to be having is that you consider a Dew Point of 40F to be too humid - which neither of you explained early on, so we could not know your level of reference.




I'll need to finish composing this later.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:20 PM

BRENDA


Back from my walk but I hate AC. Went through local Walmart twice today and each time about froze. The mall that it is attached to is just fine on their AC levels.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 7:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



JSF - you're missing some vital information.


Not all ACs use the refrigerant you listed. A different refrigerant would have a different 'boiling point'. And no, I didn't check my AC unit to see what it uses, because I would have to move it and it's great exactly where it is. But anything you say about boiling point makes an assumption about the refrigerant.


Another caveat is that 'boiling point' changes with pressure. There is not ONE boiling point for any liquid-vapor transition, there is a continuous series of boiling points depending on pressure.

Here are some examples of BP curves for different compounds at different pressures:


Real life examples of boiling point changing with pressure are 1) water boiling at a lower temperature in Denver, CO due to lower atmospheric pressure, and 2) the increased temperature water boils at in a pressure cooker.

I don't know what pressure you're assuming the refrigerant is boiling at, but it's an assumption.

Another, and very bad, assumption is that AC units routinely ice over. That's only true if the refrigerant is low. That leads to an even lower pressure after the capillary tube, which causes the temp to drop below its normal functional level. But it's not a normal thing. It means something is broken.

Quote:

But kiki already admitted she measured 59 degrees F ... In a 70 degree space, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees.
So, my measurement was what you claimed it should be, and the dew point - which is around 55F - is still below the AC output. I'm glad you agree. The AC output does not bring the air temp below the dew point, therefore moisture does not condense out!
Quote:

When
IF
Quote:

the boiling point of the refrigerant is 40 degrees F, then any air ... which is forced past this Evaporator tube will continue away from the Evaporator at 40 degrees
Only if heat transfer is 100% efficient with regards to the entire mass of air going past the evaporator coils.
Quote:

Upon reviewing your post, I see you may be confused about Dew Point of A/C output air. The Dew Point of air coming out of a working A/C cannot be 100% RH.
Dew point is the TEMPERATURE at which moisture condenses out of the air. So dew point is reported in degrees, not in relative humidity percent. Or, to put it another way, dew point is the TEMPERATURE at which air becomes saturated with water vapor ie = the TEMPERATURE at which the RH is 100%.

FWIW I measured the backside of the evaporator coils 3X in 3 places and got the same measurement.


You haven't really shown me that my evap coils go down to 40F because 1) you made a lot of assumptions to come up with that figure - including the type of refrigerant, the level of fill, and the pressure in the evap coils; and 2) you had to throw out actual data to maintain your claim. In addition, you seem to think that there's 100% heat transfer of all the air passing by the coils, and that that air will reach your (assumed) 40F. My measurements show that the coils themselves were at 59F, probably in temperature equilibrium with the air exiting past them. In that case, indeed, the air never got below the dew point.


Quote:

It was the only calibrated Standard Barometer our airline had in SoCal. I don't recall if the next nearest was SFO, Denver, or Houston.
JEEZE!!! What airline was THAT? I certainly don't want to fly it! IMO it had dangerously inadequate capabilities for basic important things!

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 8:31 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
JSF - you're missing some vital information.

Not all ACs use the refrigerant you listed. A different refrigerant would have a different 'boiling point'. And no, I didn't check my AC unit to see what it uses, because I would have to move it and it's great exactly where it is. But anything you say about boiling point makes an assumption about the refrigerant.

blah blah blahblahblah....What I already said.
Perhaps this is a demonstration of kiki not reading what I already stated, or else her failure of reading comprehension. Not sure it matters which.
Quote:


Another caveat is that 'boiling point' changes with pressure. There is not ONE boiling point for any liquid-vapor transition, there is a continuous series of boiling points depending on pressure.

blahblahblah...again repeating what I already stated.
Quote:


Here are some examples of BP curves for different compounds at different pressures:


Real life examples of boiling point changing with pressure are 1) water boiling at a lower temperature in Denver, CO due to lower atmospheric pressure, and 2) the increased temperature water boils at in a pressure cooker.

I don't know what pressure you're assuming the refrigerant is boiling at, but it's an assumption.

and yet, here you seem to not even understand what you just posted above. All of the refrigerants have a boiling point under Zero degrees F (at atmo pressure), and the Compressor is matched to the refrigerant such that the boiling point is 40 degrees F, at the design pressure which the Compressor is chosen for. You must be making the assumption that this is rocket surgery and nobody but you can comprehend how to manipulate pressures to obtain the desired boiling point of a chosen refrigerant.
Quote:



Another, and very bad, assumption is that AC units routinely ice over. That's only true if the refrigerant is low. That leads to an even lower pressure after the capillary tube, which causes the temp to drop below its normal functional level. But it's not a normal thing. It means something is broken.

obviously you must be correct - my dehumidifier which iced up several times about 10 years ago must be broken, despite never being recharged or repaired and continuing to pull gallons of water per day even now. silly me
Quote:


Quote:

But kiki already admitted she measured 59 degrees F ... In a 70 degree space, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees.
So, my measurement was what you claimed it should be, and the dew point - which is around 55F - is still below the AC output. I'm glad you agree. The AC output does not bring the air temp below the dew point, therefore moisture does not condense out!
Quote:

When
IF
Quote:

the boiling point of the refrigerant is 40 degrees F, then any air ... which is forced past this Evaporator tube will continue away from the Evaporator at 40 degrees
Only if heat transfer is 100% efficient with regards to the entire mass of air going past the evaporator coils.
Quote:

Upon reviewing your post, I see you may be confused about Dew Point of A/C output air. The Dew Point of air coming out of a working A/C cannot be 100% RH.
Dew point is the TEMPERATURE at which moisture condenses out of the air. So dew point is reported in degrees, not in relative humidity percent. Or, to put it another way, dew point is the TEMPERATURE at which air becomes saturated with water vapor ie = the TEMPERATURE at which the RH is 100%.

FWIW I measured the backside of the evaporator coils 3X in 3 places and got the same measurement.


You haven't really shown me that my evap coils go down to 40F because 1) you made a lot of assumptions to come up with that figure - including the type of refrigerant, the level of fill, and the pressure in the evap coils; and 2) you had to throw out actual data to maintain your claim. In addition, you seem to think that there's 100% heat transfer of all the air passing by the coils, and that that air will reach your (assumed) 40F. My measurements show that the coils themselves were at 59F, probably in temperature equilibrium with the air exiting past them. In that case, indeed, the air never got below the dew point.

so much wrong to bother addressing.....
Quote:




Quote:

It was the only calibrated Standard Barometer our airline had in SoCal. I don't recall if the next nearest was SFO, Denver, or Houston.
JEEZE!!! What airline was THAT? I certainly don't want to fly it! IMO it had dangerously inadequate capabilities for basic important things!

You really, really conjure that every airline must have a Calibration and Repair Lab in every single podunk town in the world, regardless if they had an adequate airport? You would certainly bankrupt any otherwise viable business thru useless wasteful spending. I recall other airlines had even fewer Calibration and Repair Labs than ours did, and I never heard of a single airline (especially not the largest) which had thousands or even hundreds of locations with facilities for Calibration and Repair Lab to repair every single part, component, assembly, and sensor that the airline possessed. The LAX Lab was fairly robust, and I don't recall if there were any particular parts which was beyond our scope or purview for repair, calibration, or disposal. Your version of insanity would have mandates for every single block in America to have an auto repair facility.
I would certainly not wish upon any airline the likes of a harpy like you flying on their birds.
You must conjure that the United States must maintain an exact duplicate of the Atomic Clock individually in every city in America, not merely in Boulder.
Sigs has implied she is familiar with the concept of Calibration Standards, so maybe you can consult with her how to define, maintain, and utilize Standards.

And now I even recall that a number of Cities and meteorology facilities in SoCal had theirs calibrated off of our Standard. I don't recall if ours was the designated primary Standard for all at LAX, but a niggling memory indicates that may have been the case. I do recall that the "list" of facilities which calibrated off our Standard, which list we were required to maintain, was actually a book.

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 9:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



JSF - why are you stuck on 40F? You yourself cited a SPECIFIC refrigerant "R-134a". But not all refrigerants 'boil' at 40F, and there are a variety of refrigerants used in AC units. So, unless you can quote me some ASTM standard (or equivalent) that says all compressor/ refrigerant combinations must be designed to an evap coil temp of 40F, I'm going to ignore your 40F mania.


Aside from thinking that cooling coil icing is a normal function of any kind of refrigeration (it isn't), you missed one very important fact: As the air passing the coils is cooled down, the coils are warmed up.

While coils, at the very, very entry point of the refrigerant, MAY be down to 40F (which is an unproven claim on your part), by the time the refrigerant has moved through the coils, it's warmed up considerably. The coils are no longer at 40F. You yourself mention that evap coils may be different temps in different places, but then you completely ignore what that means. The air will only be made as cold as the evap coil it touches, it can't be made any colder. Given that the evap coils warm up, even if they start at 40F at the very entrance to the coils, they don't stay at 40F.
And given the relative masses of the two thermal systems - the mass of room air blowing past the coils v the mass of refrigerant circulating through the evap coils - the coils will ALWAYS warm up more than the air will cool down. So coil temps will rise above 40F. And the air exiting the coils will never be at 40F.

That's why my coils measured 59F. And that's why the air doesn't get cool enough to condense moisture, under my conditions. And that's why the room gets more humid as it's cooled down.


And no, I don't think every possible small podunk needs a NIST SRM or even a CRM. But if they're taking barometric measurement for anything important, they SHOULD have a robust QC system in place. At the very least they should be checking their barometers(specialized manometers) against a known value (like an altitude-corrected nearby NWS air pressure reading) before they take a measurement, in order to make sure their barometer's working correctly. And of course there should be a system of routine checks of all measurement instruments out in the field.



But I guess you're just very proud of the specialness of the job you did. If so - congratulations!

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Tuesday, June 22, 2021 11:16 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

It actually DOES keep the bedroom cool, which is a good thing for sleeping! and by experience, I can testify it's far far better than not having anything at all.

Anyway, gonna' start my day.

ta ta for now



I'm sure it does. They're not entirely useless like swamp coolers are.

They're just designed with the flaw that they work against themselves.

It's certainly better than nothing at all.

Hopefully you can construct an outside-of-the-house stabilizer that can carry the bulk of the weight of a window unit or get somebody to build you one. It's not central air, but it really will make all the difference in the world.

I'm honestly shocked at how well a single unit cools off my entire house and keeps it dry.

Good luck.




ETA: Oh... I had done a lot of online research about what size I'd need for my house before hand. I think that a lot of it is incorrect. Or perhaps other people's idea of "comfortable" is a lot different than mine is.

I really wanted to get the 15,000 BTU option. I finally found a window unit with 15,000 BTUs that would plug into a 120V service, but it was too big for my window by about 1.5" so I went with the 12,000 BTU option instead.

At this point, two summers into it, I can't imagine I'd be any better off with the 15k over the 12k version. I can't even entirely discount JSF saying that I've gone overboard with the 12k unit as well unless I were to get another new A/C that was 8k or 10k BTU and test it out versus my current experience.

When I was a kid we didn't even have A/C at my grandma's when we visited our dad for a few years. I've only had A/C in a car about 2 years out of the 25 years I've been driving. And I just went 8 years in my own house without it. And you're in a house where the kitchen has been reading 115 degrees.

I think our idea of comfortable is a lot less prissy.



--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 2:02 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
JSF - why are you stuck on 40F? You yourself cited a SPECIFIC refrigerant "R-134a". But not all refrigerants 'boil' at 40F, and there are a variety of refrigerants used in AC units. So, unless you can quote me some ASTM standard (or equivalent) that says all compressor/ refrigerant combinations must be designed to an evap coil temp of 40F, I'm going to ignore your 40F mania.


Aside from thinking that cooling coil icing is a normal function of any kind of refrigeration (it isn't), you missed one very important fact: As the air passing the coils is cooled down, the coils are warmed up.

While coils, at the very, very entry point of the refrigerant, MAY be down to 40F (which is an unproven claim on your part), by the time the refrigerant has moved through the coils, it's warmed up considerably. The coils are no longer at 40F. You yourself mention that evap coils may be different temps in different places, but then you completely ignore what that means. The air will only be made as cold as the evap coil it touches, it can't be made any colder. Given that the evap coils warm up, even if they start at 40F at the very entrance to the coils, they don't stay at 40F.
And given the relative masses of the two thermal systems - the mass of room air blowing past the coils v the mass of refrigerant circulating through the evap coils - the coils will ALWAYS warm up more than the air will cool down. So coil temps will rise above 40F. And the air exiting the coils will never be at 40F.

That's why my coils measured 59F. And that's why the air doesn't get cool enough to condense moisture, under my conditions. And that's why the room gets more humid as it's cooled down.


And no, I don't think every possible small podunk needs a NIST SRM or even a CRM. But if they're taking barometric measurement for anything important, they SHOULD have a robust QC system in place. At the very least they should be checking their barometers(specialized manometers) against a known value (like an altitude-corrected nearby NWS air pressure reading) before they take a measurement, in order to make sure their barometer's working correctly.

Yes, as I already pointed out, NWS did calibrate off of our Standard.

I see that since you cannot understand the concept of Calibration Standard, you should just assume I am special.

Your claim that air is a vastly better conductor of heat energy than metal tubing, even copper, is fairly preposterous. Refrigerant which easily boils at -26F without pressure but is pressurized for a 40F boiling point and contained within a metal tube - often copper - easily overpowers weak heat conductor (air), and the heat required for the boiling is far more than the meager heat provided by the air - unless, as I mentioned, the air is above 150 degrees F.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 3:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

SIGNYM:
Jeezus, JSF, you're lecturing to people who know all about refrigerants, refrigerators, all kinds of coolers (including Peltier coolers), humidity and percent moisture measurements

I think I know how to condense moisture and dry gases and how to deal with humidity and moisture calculations for.... home HVAC

The fact is that if you cool air but do not reach dew point (ie water does not condense out) relative humidity goes up.

JSF: Well, jeez. If you already understood that the Dew Point at the coils is 40 degrees F, and you already understand that the output of the A/C is 60 degrees F with an RH of 70%, which when warmed to 70 degrees F is RH 35%, and that Air Conditioners and Dehumidifiers are functionally the same, then I do not understand why you have been posting as if you are dumbfounded by the concepts.

SIGNY: How do I "know" this? Whether the coil condenses out moisture or not depends on the moisture content and temperature of the air coming in, and whether the coil reaches the dew point depends on the efficiency of the AC. But according to the AC guy who came to replace our compressor, you can generally expect a 20 degree drop in temp across the evap coils. So if the temp outside in 100 and the dew point is 40, then the temp coming at the coils is 80F ... far far away from any possible condensation.
And if the temp drops at night to 80, and the AC manages to cool the air to 60F, then the temp is STILL above the dew point of 40F.
Right?

JSF: No. Not right.
Based upon your prior posted replies, I had considered our exchange on this subject finished, and had not bothered to respond to the above post.
I had already ended my attempts towards discussion with kiki about the topic.
But then you posted the following, suggesting you enjoyed the discourse.
Despite you posting more (repeated, continuing) wrong, and apparently not reading the facts which I have posted, I can try to reply briefly. If you desire to dispute the facts that I am posting and have posted, no need to bother. If you have genuine and valid questions about the facts I post, feel free to entertain those.

SIGNYM: Ok, let me put it this way:
Dew point is like temperature: It's a measurement of outdoor air, and has nothing to do with any specific air conditioner. If you go to wunderground.com and do a search on any los angeles zip code, and call up the 10-day forecast, you'll see lines curving up and down for temperature, "feels like", and DEW POINT.
If the temperature is 100F and the dew point is 40F, you would have to cool the air all the way down to 40F to get condensation. And unless water is condensed, moisture content will not be reduced.
Is a normal AC unit capable of cooling air from 100F to 40F?

OTOH, if the temperature is 80F and the dew point is 65F, what are the chances that an AC unit will condense water out of the air?

I DID appreciate the discussion, tho.

JSF: Why you think I implied lack of knowledge about Dew Points, I don't know. I have been adequately familiar with Dew Point since running the Barometer room in the Calibration Lab of our sensor and instrument repair shop for our airline at LAX. It was the only calibrated Standard Barometer our airline had in SoCal. I don't recall if the next nearest was SFO, Denver, or Houston.
Even before that, every calibration lab I worked at was required to maintain a humidograph.
No, the molecular composition of the refrigerant does NOT change just because external conditions have changed. No external temperature, humidity level, light or brightness, or even "temperature setting" on an Air Conditioner HMI/display will make alterations to the molecular composition of the refrigerant.
The system using refrigerants is a closed system.
No, external environmental conditions or distractions will not change the boiling point of the stable refrigerant under system compression (pressure).
No, the compression does not change based upon external environmental conditions, unless you have a variable compressor for your residential unit, which means a very, very expensive A/C, and thus a very, very expensive abode.

Perhaps you can explain to yourself how an Evaporator Coil can freeze water into a solid block while at the same time never dropping below 59 degrees F, or even never dropping below 45 degrees F.
Yes, Evaporator Coils are notoriously difficult to get an accurate reading from, and one end of the Evaporator tube may be 40 degrees F while the other end could be 60 degrees F. But kiki already admitted she measured 59 degrees F, so you need not further argue about any Dew Point above 59 unless you are arguing with her.

I have no disagreement that HVAC guys, just like auto mechanics, can be stupid, even very stupid. Maybe that guy made a situational comment, or maybe you misunderstood what or how he said. But if he really said that, then I would either A) not let him touch my A/C equipment or B) watch him like a hawk, every thing he did. If he really believed that, then he could be just blissfully ignorant, and only doing what his boss told him to do or say, to make the company money. If he knew better and was just saying that to lie to you, then he should be watched closely to ward from sabotage of your equipment. A Compressor swap is not brain surgery, no matter what algore says. You might check of he charged you for applying Prop Wash to your Fan Blades, or refilling your Blinker Fluid, or replacing your Muffler Belt.
Regardless, I would not let such a tard near Ammonia refrigeration, nor nitrogen refrigeration.

In a 70 degree space, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees. In a 110 degree environment, the output of a working A/C should be 60 degrees. I have seen and measured both - it is part of troubleshooting.
The outside temperature has no relation to the output temperature of an A/C. It does affect the efficiency of cooling off the Condenser. If the outside temperature is 120 degrees, and the inside temperature is at 90 degrees, then the 90 degrees is the pertinent factor that the A/C and refrigerant is chewing on. The refrigerant does not change it's own boiling point based upon either the inside temp or the outside temp.

When the boiling point of the refrigerant is 40 degrees F, then any air, regardless of temperature (unless something higher than 150 degrees) or humidity, which is forced past this Evaporator tube will continue away from the Evaporator at 40 degrees, and more importantly at 40 degrees Dew Point.
You have seen a cold beer can come out of refrigeration on a hot day? If 70 degrees outside, will condensation form on the can? (Yes.) If 110 degrees outside, will condensation form on the can? (Yes.)

IT DEPENDS ON THE HUMIDITY OF THE AIR. IN DEATH VALLEY, THE ANSWER IS "NO".
Quote:

JSF: The only real difference is that, in stagnant (unforced) air, the 110 degrees will condense faster, practically immediately - unless the Dew Point is under 40 or 50 degrees.


Upon reviewing your post, I see you may be confused about Dew Point of A/C output air. The Dew Point of air coming out of a working A/C cannot be 100% RH. The critical factor is the INSTANTANEOUS DEW POINT of the air when it encounters the Evaporator tube containing the 40 degree refrigerant inside. The air on the exit side of this tube or Coil cannot have a dew point higher than 40 degrees. By the time it exits the A/C vent, the temp would be 60 degrees, and RH around 70% (or so).
You don't need to cool the entire room down to 40F to achieve condensation (think of a cold can), but only the instantaneous point of contact of the forced air across the 40F Evaporator Coil. The room can be 120 degrees, and the 40F coil will still form condensate - and that parcel of air will be dehumidified down to the Dew Point of 40F until it mixes with the rest of the space.

SIGNY: Is a normal AC unit capable of cooling air from 100F to 40F?

JSF: If you are asking the proper question, then yes. The instantaneous cooling at the Evaporator will produce 40 degree air, and by the time it exits the A/C it will be 60 degrees, and by the time it is a foot away from the vent you can still place your hand and feel sub-70 temp, and by the time this air reaches 15 feet away from to vent in a 100 degree space, it is likely 90 or 95 degrees, largely depending upon the Blower Fan.
So if the indoor temperature is 100 degrees, the normal functioning A/C will not make the entire space 60 in an instant, but will after enough time - that amount of time is determined by the capacity or rating of the A/C - like the size of the coils, and the Blower Fan capacity. Even if the outside temp is 120 F, the A/C air will become 90 (most efficiently), then 80, then 70, then 60 (least efficiently). If the indoor temp is much below 60 degrees, then the normal A/C unit will, when running, mostly just freeze up the Evaporator Coil into a solid block of ice. Because the air does not have enough heat in it to supply the heat needed for the refrigerant to boil efficiently in the Evaporator.
At all of these temps, the air is being cooled to 40 F on the exit side of the Evaporator, but the physics of the normal residential A/C will not cool the entire space to 40 degrees without freezing up the coil. This is why a refrigerator cooling system is different than an A/C unit. And, if Freezer and Refrigerator are independent, the Freezer cooling is different as well. The targeted temp range is determined by the combination of specific refrigerant and pressure.

SIGNY: OTOH, if the temperature is 80F and the dew point is 65F, what are the chances that an AC unit will condense water out of the air?

JSF: kiki has already admitted that she measured 59 degrees on her Evaporator Coil (the notoriously error-prone measurements of Evaporators would have her read 59 only if the actual temp was lower, not if the actual temp was higher.) With a temp at lest as low as 59 degrees, I think you should be able to see that any hypothetical Temperature characteristics or Dew Point higher than 59 degrees (exiting the unit) is moot. Obviously, the Dew Point in the conditioned space must be attacked piecemeal, it does not instantly change throughout the entire space.

The other argument either you or kiki seems to be having is that you consider a Dew Point of 40F to be too humid - which neither of you explained early on, so we could not know your level of reference.

I'll need to finish composing this later.



JSF:

1) An evaporator coil only ices over if something is WRONG. Usually it's blocked airflow, but sometimes it's a problem with the expansion valve.

2) EVEN IF the evaporator coil reaches 40F - OR LOWER- the air is flowing over it too quickly to reach 40F. Heat transfer is not instantaneous. Ever wait for a pot to boil? It takes time.

3) Every website that I looked at about the temperature drop across the evaporator coils says the same thing: a 20F drop. Sometimes as little as 15F, sometimes as high as 22F, but due to the nature of airflow and heat transfer, air does NOT reach evaporator coil temperatures, unless it's had a long time to equilibrate. (Hence, ice blocks= restricted airflow.)

https://hvacrschool.com/20-%CE%B4t-delta-t-a-lazy-rule-of-thumb/
https://www.achrnews.com/articles/93135-air-side-diagnostics-and-servi
ce

https://www.shopyourway.com/m/questions/1091500
https://georgebrazilhvac.com/blog/what-temperature-should-my-central-a
ir-conditioner-be-putting-out


Feel free to look at any wesbite that you care to look, they'll all say the same thing:
A 20F drop across the evaporator coils is typical of a properly-operating AC unit. Now, EVENTUALLY, because the AC unit pulls air from the room and not directly from the outside, the room will cool down (RH increasing as it does unless water is condensing out) and then at some point the AC evap coils may cause water to condense out, if they didn't initially.

Now, one thing that I did find interesting is in reading about the nature of the expansion valve. Also, I learned that AC systems are usually adjusted to reach approx the same temperature after the expansion valve, and that the compressor, the refrigerant, and the expansion valve all have to work together.

Never diss our AC guy!! Our compressor developed a leak right past the compressor part, and all of the other AC people wanted to replaced the whole thing. ($15,000+). But with some diligent research he came up with a compressor and an intermediate refrigerant and mated two different systems together, and it works great!

I can't imagine why YOU can't imagine a situation in which an AC unit does NOT act as a dehumidifier. If the outside temperature is high enough, and the humidity is low enough, you won't be able to wring water out of the air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures (in the 70s). You'd have to use a chemical drier.

Theoretically, let's start on the far end of the bell curve: Air with no moisture in it at all. Clearly, you can't dehumidify it any further no matter HOW much you cool it down! As we move along the curve, adding a smidge of water to the air (to approximate, say, the water content of Mars) it's still impossible to dehumidify the air with a normal AC. But by adding more and more moisture to the air, it becomes more and more possible to dehumidify with less and less of a temperature drop until eventually the moisture condenses out on its own and you have fog.

So it's obvious to me that under some conditions of temperature and humidity - such as what happens during a Santa Ana in the high deserts and foothills - it's theoretically possible not to be able to dehumidify air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures.

I don't feel the need to discuss this any further but I do appreciate you delving into this with us because I had to look into things myself, and I learned more about ACs..


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Pity would be no more,
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THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

1KIKI:
JSF - why are you stuck on 40F? You yourself cited a SPECIFIC refrigerant "R-134a". But not all refrigerants 'boil' at 40F, and there are a variety of refrigerants used in AC units. So, unless you can quote me some ASTM standard (or equivalent) that says all compressor/ refrigerant combinations must be designed to an evap coil temp of 40F, I'm going to ignore your 40F mania.
Aside from thinking that cooling coil icing is a normal function of any kind of refrigeration (it isn't), you missed one very important fact: As the air passing the coils is cooled down, the coils are warmed up.
While coils, at the very, very entry point of the refrigerant, MAY be down to 40F (which is an unproven claim on your part), by the time the refrigerant has moved through the coils, it's warmed up considerably. The coils are no longer at 40F. You yourself mention that evap coils may be different temps in different places, but then you completely ignore what that means. The air will only be made as cold as the evap coil it touches...

Actually, it mostly WON'T be made as cold as the evap coil that it touches because (1) Most of the air moving thru the evap coil never touches the coil itself anyway, and (2) heat transfer takes time
Quote:

KIKI: it can't be made any colder. Given that the evap coils warm up, even if they start at 40F at the very entrance to the coils, they don't stay at 40F.
And given the relative masses of the two thermal systems - the mass of room air blowing past the coils v the mass of refrigerant circulating through the evap coils - the coils will ALWAYS warm up more than the air will cool down. So coil temps will rise above 40F. And the air exiting the coils will never be at 40F.
That's why my coils measured 59F. And that's why the air doesn't get cool enough to condense moisture, under my conditions. And that's why the room gets more humid as it's cooled down.
And no, I don't think every possible small podunk needs a NIST SRM or even a CRM. But if they're taking barometric measurement for anything important, they SHOULD have a robust QC system in place. At the very least they should be checking their barometers(specialized manometers) against a known value (like an altitude-corrected nearby NWS air pressure reading) before they take a measurement, in order to make sure their barometer's working correctly.

JSF: Yes, as I already pointed out, NWS did calibrate off of our Standard.

Bully for you, sport! Except you never did post that, as I recall.

Quote:

JSF: I see that since you cannot understand the concept of Calibration Standard, you should just assume I am special.
I happen to know that KIKI understands QA and calibration standards far better than I do. Heck, you BOTH prolly understand QA better than I do!

But why do you assume that you're the only person who knows anything? Your job - which sounds suspiciously like airplane instrument repair - sounds technically advanced and very responsible. (As an aside, I think you mentioned that you were stationed at El Toro, correct? Neighborhood rumor has it that all of those military choppers and Ospreys that we see overhead are training flights from there. Is that true? And if that's the case, were you working on aircraft repair there? My BIL used to do aircraft repair for the Navy on an aircraft carrier.)

But you're not the only one with advanced technical expertise. So PUHLEEZ stop assuming that you're so all-fired special!

EDITED TO ADD: JSF, you kept posting about the "dew point at the coils" being 40F which I find utterfly confusing. DEW POINT is a characteristic of THE AIR, whether it is at the coils or anywhere else. Dew point is simply a temperature-independent measure of the amount of moisture in the air, no matter WHERE you measure it. Why would dew point at the coils be any different than dew point outdoors, or dew point indoors? (Well, dew point indoors might be higher, NOT because the temperature is cooler -if air conditioned- but because human activity- such as breathing, cooking, and showering - adds moisture to the air.)

The average June dew point at Furnace Creek, Death Valley, is 30F with a RH of 17%. Santa Ana conditions here have historically rivaled average Death Valley conditions, with excessively low RHs and dew points. So if you're ASSUMING that the dew point (at the coils, or anywhere else) is 40F, you're making a bad assumption.




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Pity would be no more,
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THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 12:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



JSF - if you have to continually misrepresent my posts - and yours - and reality (ie your claim the entire NWS doesn't have even one SRM; or implying you used to recalibrate SRMs) - in order to 'refute' them, there's something wrong with your argument.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 1:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Managed to help hubby replace another light fixture. Then we got all involved in estimating the heat buildup in the (entirely enclosed) light fixtures around the house, since the package says not to use LEDS in enclosed fixtures.

The package gives the wattage of the bulbs (13), but the mA draw and normal voltage (120) calculate to 18W, so we spent some trying to figure out how they got that. Turns out, since both V and A vary sinusoidally you need to calculate the root mean square of both in order to get 13W. Presumably that's what they did and it's correct, not just an advert fudge factor. Anyway, the heat buildup won't start any fires or anything but I assume that it WILL shorten the life of the electronics inside the LED.

Did you ever feel how heavy those suckers are??? There's a lot of complicated electronics in the base, since LEDs work on lower voltage DC current.

Looking at a cooldown so for the next few days my work -aside from normal ousehold chores - will prolly be outdoors.



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THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 4:47 PM

BRENDA


Back from my walk and not as warm as yesterday. Bit more cloud cover and breeze. But weather is suppose to remain warm to hot until next Tuesday.


Now, I have to figure out how to get another hole put into the tv stand so I can run some wires to hook up the VCR I have and see if it still works.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

SIGNYM:
Jeezus, JSF, you're lecturing to people who know all about refrigerants, refrigerators, all kinds of coolers (including Peltier coolers), humidity and percent moisture measurements



JSF:

https://georgebrazilhvac.com/blog/what-temperature-should-my-central-a
ir-conditioner-be-putting-out


here you are quoting one of the many sites that says refrigerant flows from the Compressor into the Evaporator, then the Condenser, then bakc to the Compressor - the exact opposite of fact.

The 3rd sentence from your link:
Quote:

The temperature your AC puts out is relative to the temperature you set on your thermostat.
What a complete load of horsepoop. Your refrigerant does NOT change it's molecular structure or composition based upon your HMI/display settings. Your refrigerant DOES NOT change it's own boiling point. Unless you have an expensive variable Compressor, your pressure of your refrigerant does not change based upon any whims. No wonder you are saying the things you post if you believe this nonsense.
Quote:



I can't imagine why YOU can't imagine a situation in which an AC unit does NOT act as a dehumidifier. If the outside temperature is high enough, and the humidity is low enough, you won't be able to wring water out of the air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures (in the 70s). You'd have to use a chemical drier.

Theoretically, let's start on the far end of the bell curve: Air with no moisture in it at all. Clearly, you can't dehumidify it any further no matter HOW much you cool it down! As we move along the curve, adding a smidge of water to the air (to approximate, say, the water content of Mars) it's still impossible to dehumidify the air with a normal AC. But by adding more and more moisture to the air, it becomes more and more possible to dehumidify with less and less of a temperature drop until eventually the moisture condenses out on its own and you have fog.

So it's obvious to me that under some conditions of temperature and humidity - such as what happens during a Santa Ana in the high deserts and foothills - it's theoretically possible not to be able to dehumidify air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures.

Not sure if you are still in mid-edit of your post after a half a day.

But i don't understand why you are working so feverishly to push and pull and tug and move the goalposts.
The topic was humid air. Mention was made about the air was too humid.
Before your edits, you were talking about dry air, which was in no part of the topic except changing humid air to dry air.

You two have been proclaiming that air with high Relative Humidity cannot possibly pass through Evaporator Coils of a working, normal residential Air Conditioner (or Dehumidifier) where at least a portion are 40 degrees F and produce a single droplet of water upon the coil.


I'm not going to bother explaining moisture baffles because you are obviously already overly confused, and now you cannot even stay on topic.

Sure, kiki has been flying off on every possible and available tangent, but now you have decided to veer off in the opposite vector.

I am suspecting that you don't even know (or remember) common methods to remove moisture from the air without introducing temperature change or dessicants. I come up with 2 off the top of my head without much thought.


Yes, yes, because I am familiar with Dew Point, this makes me very, very special. Bully for me. Particularly for those like you 2 who have apparent difficulty grasping the concepts and ramifications.


I recall when my humidostat in my basement was reading 35% (RH) at approx 70 degree F, and my one-tube Portable A/C (like what kiki says she has) upstairs continued to pull out water, filling up to a 5 gallon bucket per day. Consulting a chart, this seems to equal about 40 Degree F Dew Point. This further illustrates that a working, normal residential (and underpowered for a 2,000 Sq Ft building) Portable A/C was still condensing (dehumidifying) 40 Degree Dew Point air - as it should.



I measured a cross section of coil, and for every interval of 8mm, there was 2mm air gap and 6mm of metal coil.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

SIGNYM:
Jeezus, JSF, you're lecturing to people who know all about refrigerants, refrigerators, all kinds of coolers (including Peltier coolers), humidity and percent moisture measurements

JSF:

https://georgebrazilhvac.com/blog/what-temperature-should-my-central-a
ir-conditioner-be-putting-out


here you are quoting one of the many sites that says refrigerant flows from the Compressor into the Evaporator, then the Condenser, then bakc to the Compressor - the exact opposite of fact.
Quote:



I can't imagine why YOU can't imagine a situation in which an AC unit does NOT act as a dehumidifier. If the outside temperature is high enough, and the humidity is low enough, you won't be able to wring water out of the air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures (in the 70s). You'd have to use a chemical drier.

Theoretically, let's start on the far end of the bell curve: Air with no moisture in it at all. Clearly, you can't dehumidify it any further no matter HOW much you cool it down! As we move along the curve, adding a smidge of water to the air (to approximate, say, the water content of Mars) it's still impossible to dehumidify the air with a normal AC. But by adding more and more moisture to the air, it becomes more and more possible to dehumidify with less and less of a temperature drop until eventually the moisture condenses out on its own and you have fog.

So it's obvious to me that under some conditions of temperature and humidity - such as what happens during a Santa Ana in the high deserts and foothills - it's theoretically possible not to be able to dehumidify air with a normally-operating AC unit set to typical indoor temperatures.

JSF: Not sure if you are still in mid-edit of your post after a half a day.

But i don't understand why you are working so feverishly to push and pull and tug and move the goalposts.
The topic was humid air. Mention was made about the air was too humid.
Before your edits, you were talking about dry air, which was in no part of the topic except changing humid air to dry air.

You two have been proclaiming that air with high Relative Humidity cannot possibly pass through Evaporator Coils of a working, normal residential Air Conditioner (or Dehumidifier) where at least a portion are 40 degrees F and produce a single droplet of water upon the coil.

Neither Kiki not I posted any such thing. KIKI was posting about 115F air - and around here, that means DRY SANTA ANA CONDITIONS WITH LOW RH- being cooled to 70F and achieving higherRH as a result. The starting condition is hot DRY air, not hot humid air.


Quote:

I'm not going to bother explaining moisture baffles because you are obviously already overly confused, and now you cannot even stay on topic.
Your snark isn't going to change the fact that the confusion appears to be entirely on your end. But by all means, please stop lecturing us as if we know nothing.

****

I'm going to refer back to a post that you made about pump cycles, which implied that the less water that you pump out with each cycle means that the pump will go off less often.

But if you pump less water per cycle, the pump will have to go off MORE often in order to keep up with the inflow. It's simple subtraction: water trickling in minus water being pumped out. Maybe you post confusingly, but sometimes your posts sound nonsensical.


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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 6:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

SignyM - I can't imagine why YOU can't imagine a situation in which an AC unit does NOT act as a dehumidifier. ... Theoretically, let's start on the far end of the bell curve: Air with no moisture in it at all. Clearly, you can't dehumidify it any further no matter HOW much you cool it down!
Quote:

JSF: Not sure if you are still in mid-edit of your post after a half a day.

But i don't understand why you are working so feverishly to push and pull and tug and move the goalposts.
The topic was humid air. Mention was made about the air was too humid.
Before your edits, you were talking about dry air, which was in no part of the topic except changing humid air to dry air.

I see JSF is seriously confused. JSF - I even posted the RELATIVE HUMIDITY and the DEW POINT of the AMBIENT AIR to indicate that the air was RELATIVELY DRY, NOT HUMID.

I even contrasted your upper midwest conditions (hot, humid) to SoCal conditions (even hotter, and a lot drier.)

What's so hard to understand about that?

My point was that if you start with RELATIVELY DRY, NOT HUMID AIR that's really warm, you will not be able to dehumidify it through a normal house AC.
Quote:

You two have been proclaiming that air with high Relative Humidity cannot possibly pass through Evaporator Coils of a working, normal residential Air Conditioner (or Dehumidifier) where at least a portion are 40 degrees F and produce a single droplet of water upon the coil.
That's the exact opposite of everything I've posted.

Sheesh.

Try reading the posts before you get triggered and go off on people, OK?

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yes, JSF, you seem to get triggered on misunderstandings. You did it in the "lesbian underwear" thread too. MAYBE you should seek clarification first, before you go off on people? Because, yanno, sometimes we actually agree on a lot of things.

I trust the topic is well and truly dead? Anyway, not gonna post about it anymore.

*****

Garden is regularly producing zucchini, cucumbers, and tomatoes now. Also beet greens. I've figured that into the upcoming menu.

I tried an experiment with the beets. Bc I didn't seed them directly but bought them from a nursery, I planted "cells" of beets with lot of seedlings in them. They're crowding each other out now, and while attempting to thin them I pulled out a bunch of small beets (beetlings??) along with the beet I was aiming at, so I got a trowel and re-planted them further apart and watered them in. They looked dead for a few days but now I see them perking up and sprouting new leaves, so I guess I can recover many of the small beets instead of just harvesting them for greens.


Seriously thinking of either chickens or guinea fowl. Seems like a cool project, but it's gonna have to wait until more things are straightened out first.

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Back from my walk and not as warm as yesterday. Bit more cloud cover and breeze. But weather is suppose to remain warm to hot until next Tuesday.


Now, I have to figure out how to get another hole put into the tv stand so I can run some wires to hook up the VCR I have and see if it still works.

Is your wrist better yet?

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 11:21 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hey.

We don't talk politics in this thread for a reason.

Let's not find something to argue about here, mkay?



--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 11:28 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Back from my walk and not as warm as yesterday. Bit more cloud cover and breeze. But weather is suppose to remain warm to hot until next Tuesday.


Now, I have to figure out how to get another hole put into the tv stand so I can run some wires to hook up the VCR I have and see if it still works.

Is your wrist better yet?



My right wrist is fine now as is my right shoulder.

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Wednesday, June 23, 2021 11:30 PM

BRENDA


Seems that BC is set to set break some temperature records this weekend. Rain may show up next Wednesday according to the weather people.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 8:25 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Hey Brenda - is BC in drought yet? The website where I can check it out is a month behind, so I can't seem to find current info.

Here's the US picture. They update it Thursdays, so by the end of today it'll be current.




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Thursday, June 24, 2021 10:52 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm very happy with "abnormally dry" here. Sorry about your drought out west there. I guess by now ya'all just call that Summer.


Glad your wrist is better Brenda. Hows the new foot stool working out?




--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 12:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Let's see ... besides "the west", the drought extends to some of the mountain states (Montana) the high plains states (Wyoming, the Nebraskas) and upper midwest (Minnesota, Iowa, Wisonsin and Michigan).

Prime agricultural and ranch land that produces corn, soy, beef and cheese.

Expect beef and cheese to go up in price. And since corn and soy are used primarily to feed livestock, possibly ALL forms of meat and poultry.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I think we discussed this before, but has anyone besides me noticed increased grocery prices?

I used to be able to stick pretty close to my grocery target, but for the past sevevn shopping trips I was over-budget ($30-$50 per week) for 5 out of 7 trips, and the under-budget didn't average out the over-budget, like it usually did,

I think the main culprit is meat, with cheese and fresh vegetables following.

I have "target prices': prices above which I won't buy something, and for meat that's $4/lb for lean, trimmed cuts. But used to be there was always a good sale in one of the two stores that I routinely shop, so I could often find meat that was significantly cheaper than that: ground turkey for $2.67/lb, or lean beef (which I ground myself) for $3.99. Now even fatty beef (tri-tip) is $4.99/lb on sale, and sales in general are hard to come by. So where I used to average maybe $2.50/lb for meat, I'm regularly buying closer and closer to my price point-maybe average $3.50/lb.

The other price I'm sensitive to is cheese. My price point on that was $5/lb but I used to be able to find cheese on sale for $3.00/lb. No more. All of that gone the way of the dodo and best price I can find is $4/lb. Bread: expensive. Organic fruits and vegetables used to be generically $2/lb. Well, fortunately the garden is going to fill in for some of that.

TBH I shop at regular grocery stores, not warehouse or club stores (I can't store the huge quantities that one is required to buy).

So, am I the only one? Have prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:23 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Hey Brenda - is BC in drought yet? The website where I can check it out is a month behind, so I can't seem to find current info.

Here's the US picture. They update it Thursdays, so by the end of today it'll be current.






From what I can gather Kiki, we aren't quite there yet. But the fire rating for most of BC is in the danger zone. So there are fire bans on across the province.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:24 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I'm very happy with "abnormally dry" here. Sorry about your drought out west there. I guess by now ya'all just call that Summer.


Glad your wrist is better Brenda. Hows the new foot stool working out?




--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.



For storage great but I can't sit on it as it is too tall but when I am sitting in the chair I was given I can put my feet up on it, so that is good.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:26 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think we discussed this before, but has anyone besides me noticed increased grocery prices?

I used to be able to stick pretty close to my grocery target, but for the past sevevn shopping trips I was over-budget ($30-$50 per week) for 5 out of 7 trips, and the under-budget didn't average out the over-budget, like it usually did,

I think the main culprit is meat, with cheese and fresh vegetables following.

I have "target prices': prices above which I won't buy something, and for meat that's $4/lb for lean, trimmed cuts. But used to be there was always a good sale in one of the two stores that I routinely shop, so I could often find meat that was significantly cheaper than that: ground turkey for $2.67/lb, or lean beef (which I ground myself) for $3.99. Now even fatty beef (tri-tip) is $4.99/lb on sale, and sales in general are hard to come by. So where I used to average maybe $2.50/lb for meat, I'm regularly buying closer and closer to my price point-maybe average $3.50/lb.

The other price I'm sensitive to is cheese. My price point on that was $5/lb but I used to be able to find cheese on sale for $3.00/lb. No more. All of that gone the way of the dodo and best price I can find is $4/lb. Bread: expensive. Organic fruits and vegetables used to be generically $2/lb. Well, fortunately the garden is going to fill in for some of that.

TBH I shop at regular grocery stores, not warehouse or club stores (I can't store the huge quantities that one is required to buy).

So, am I the only one? Have prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.



I've noticed that depending on what store I am in chicken can be high.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:26 PM

BRENDA


Out for a walk in the heat in a bit.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think we discussed this before, but has anyone besides me noticed increased grocery prices?

I used to be able to stick pretty close to my grocery target, but for the past sevevn shopping trips I was over-budget ($30-$50 per week) for 5 out of 7 trips, and the under-budget didn't average out the over-budget, like it usually did,

I think the main culprit is meat, with cheese and fresh vegetables following.

I have "target prices': prices above which I won't buy something, and for meat that's $4/lb for lean, trimmed cuts. But used to be there was always a good sale in one of the two stores that I routinely shop, so I could often find meat that was significantly cheaper than that: ground turkey for $2.67/lb, or lean beef (which I ground myself) for $3.99. Now even fatty beef (tri-tip) is $4.99/lb on sale, and sales in general are hard to come by. So where I used to average maybe $2.50/lb for meat, I'm regularly buying closer and closer to my price point-maybe average $3.50/lb.

The other price I'm sensitive to is cheese. My price point on that was $5/lb but I used to be able to find cheese on sale for $3.00/lb. No more. All of that gone the way of the dodo and best price I can find is $4/lb. Bread: expensive. Organic fruits and vegetables used to be generically $2/lb. Well, fortunately the garden is going to fill in for some of that.

TBH I shop at regular grocery stores, not warehouse or club stores (I can't store the huge quantities that one is required to buy).

So, am I the only one? Have prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??



I haven't noticed since I've been stocked up on stuff that I bought before Biden*'s inflation started kicking in. I guess I should prepare myself for another round of sticker shock.

You should consider finding a way to be able to stock up on things. Maybe one of those upright fridges that only cost about $20 per year to run?


There's certain deals that pay for the membership almost instantly. I get two of the biggest boxes of Cheerios you've ever seen for $6.00. Just one of those boxes literally dwarfs the insanely small box of Cheerios you get at the local grocery stores for $4.00 if they're not on sale.

Last time I bought cheese there I was able to get 5 lbs of Cheddar for $12.00. Granted, that was nearly 2 years ago. But it sure beats the $3.99 for 1 lb that I'm paying for Aldi's garbage cheese these days.




--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 5:37 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think we discussed this before, but has anyone besides me noticed increased grocery prices?

I used to be able to stick pretty close to my grocery target, but for the past sevevn shopping trips I was over-budget ($30-$50 per week) for 5 out of 7 trips, and the under-budget didn't average out the over-budget, like it usually did,

I think the main culprit is meat, with cheese and fresh vegetables following.

I have "target prices': prices above which I won't buy something, and for meat that's $4/lb for lean, trimmed cuts. But used to be there was always a good sale in one of the two stores that I routinely shop, so I could often find meat that was significantly cheaper than that: ground turkey for $2.67/lb, or lean beef (which I ground myself) for $3.99. Now even fatty beef (tri-tip) is $4.99/lb on sale, and sales in general are hard to come by. So where I used to average maybe $2.50/lb for meat, I'm regularly buying closer and closer to my price point-maybe average $3.50/lb.

The other price I'm sensitive to is cheese. My price point on that was $5/lb but I used to be able to find cheese on sale for $3.00/lb. No more. All of that gone the way of the dodo and best price I can find is $4/lb. Bread: expensive. Organic fruits and vegetables used to be generically $2/lb. Well, fortunately the garden is going to fill in for some of that.

TBH I shop at regular grocery stores, not warehouse or club stores (I can't store the huge quantities that one is required to buy).

So, am I the only one? Have prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??

Well, obviously, Californians wanted higher cost of living, higher inflation, and higher food prices - and that is why they vote for Lord Darth Obiden.
Everybody has known this for more than a year.
So now Californians got what they voted for, so they must be thrilled.

Curious that you seemed to gloss over the fact that for the past 4 years, prices have been held in check, or even dipping, during the thriving, bustling Free Market economy.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 8:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think we discussed this before, but has anyone besides me noticed increased grocery prices?

I used to be able to stick pretty close to my grocery target, but for the past sevevn shopping trips I was over-budget ($30-$50 per week) for 5 out of 7 trips, and the under-budget didn't average out the over-budget, like it usually did,

I think the main culprit is meat, with cheese and fresh vegetables following.

I have "target prices': prices above which I won't buy something, and for meat that's $4/lb for lean, trimmed cuts. But used to be there was always a good sale in one of the two stores that I routinely shop, so I could often find meat that was significantly cheaper than that: ground turkey for $2.67/lb, or lean beef (which I ground myself) for $3.99. Now even fatty beef (tri-tip) is $4.99/lb on sale, and sales in general are hard to come by. So where I used to average maybe $2.50/lb for meat, I'm regularly buying closer and closer to my price point-maybe average $3.50/lb.

The other price I'm sensitive to is cheese. My price point on that was $5/lb but I used to be able to find cheese on sale for $3.00/lb. No more. All of that gone the way of the dodo and best price I can find is $4/lb. Bread: expensive. Organic fruits and vegetables used to be generically $2/lb. Well, fortunately the garden is going to fill in for some of that.

TBH I shop at regular grocery stores, not warehouse or club stores (I can't store the huge quantities that one is required to buy).

So, am I the only one? Have prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??

Well, obviously, Californians wanted higher cost of living, higher inflation, and higher food prices - and that is why they vote for Lord Darth Obiden.
Everybody has known this for more than a year.
So now Californians got what they voted for, so they must be thrilled.

Curious that you seemed to gloss over the fact that for the past 4 years, prices have been held in check, or even dipping, during the thriving, bustling Free Market economy.

Do you suppose you could just answer without the political snark?

In the "Real complaints about Biden" thread I SPECIFICALLY tied Biden to inflation.
And BTW, I didn't vote for Biden.

So why do you have to act like your political credentials are better than anyone else's? Please, don't bring that here. This is a thread for personal events, like an online diary.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 8:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Speaking of personal events... been having pain not exactly back pain, but starting to the right of my tailbone, wrapping around my butt, and going down the front of my thigh to my knee. Pinched nerve of some sort.

Tried pregabalin and it reduced the pain and helped me sleep, but every day for a bit over a week I'd wake up feeling worse than the day before.

So this AM I took 800mg of ibuprofen and, man, I feel like a million bucks!

I'm sure all of you know, with intermittent back pain and joint pain, how limiting it can be. But today I just tore thru the gardening and shopping and I still feel good!!

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 9:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Hey Brenda - is BC in drought yet? The website where I can check it out is a month behind, so I can't seem to find current info.

Here's the US picture. They update it Thursdays, so by the end of today it'll be current.

Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

From what I can gather Kiki, we aren't quite there yet. But the fire rating for most of BC is in the danger zone. So there are fire bans on across the province.

Fingers crossed for you province then, Brenda.

I see the US upper Midwest also has a problem. I think the provinces north of the US upper Midwest are also in drought, at least close to the border. And southern Ontario and Quebec may also be entering drought.

Oh, fwiw here's the updated US Drought Monitor version from today.




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Thursday, June 24, 2021 9:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, am I the only one? Have (grocery) prices really gone up, or am I doing something new and different with my menu planning and shopping??


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

I haven't noticed, but I'm not really in a position to. My shopping is intermittent, where I generally buy in 1 of 2 ways: 1) I buy for a recipe, to make a large (predetermined) batch of 12 meals and 2) I stock up and buy large amounts/ run low/ stock up again. (And often I'll do my bulk heavy-lifting/ shelf-stable shopping - like canned goods, from more perishable bulk shopping - like chicken, because it's too difficult to manage both the shelf bulk items the perishable items quickly. I want to be able to get my perishables home, unloaded, and stored right away.)

Aside from which I don't buy categories, I buy brands, and usually a fairly limited number of brands. SO FAR, the brand prices have been stable, but the quality has gone down a lot. I may have mentioned for example how WET the chicken packages are, with literally free water in the tray bottoms despite those newly-expanded extra-large capacious absorbent pads.

Also, some brands disappeared over a year ago and have not come back, Wright's bacon for example. And supply is still iffy. Usually in any shopping trip there's at least 1 item I usually get where I either can't get something at all, or only get very limited quantities.


Speaking of which, I have a new recipe. It's a dry chicken curry. It's chicken thighs, onions, potatoes, and peas mixed with a lot of a tasty curry powder that I like.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 9:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Speaking of personal events... been having pain not exactly back pain, but starting to the right of my tailbone, wrapping around my butt, and going down the front of my thigh to my knee. Pinched nerve of some sort.

Or maybe arthritis in your sacroiliac-joint? I have that, which was QUITE a surprise, because the joint is a fixed joint! Despite being a fixed joint, it too is subject to arthritis. Another candidate is piriformis syndrome pain. If your knee was affected I'd say it might be your illiotibial band, which has its own issues.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sacroiliitis/symptoms-c
auses/syc-20350747


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Thursday, June 24, 2021 10:32 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Hey Brenda - is BC in drought yet? The website where I can check it out is a month behind, so I can't seem to find current info.

Here's the US picture. They update it Thursdays, so by the end of today it'll be current.

Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

From what I can gather Kiki, we aren't quite there yet. But the fire rating for most of BC is in the danger zone. So there are fire bans on across the province.

Fingers crossed for you province then, Brenda.

I see the US upper Midwest also has a problem. I think the provinces north of the US upper Midwest are also in drought, at least close to the border. And southern Ontario and Quebec may also be entering drought.

Oh, fwiw here's the updated US Drought Monitor version from today.






Thanks. BC is going to need it for this weekend at least. Temps could reach into the 40sC depending where you are in the province. My area it will reach into the low 30sC.

Yeah, Alberta will be getting some of this heat too and most like farther east.

This dome is sitting over BC and Washington State with fingers like I said into Alberta.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 11:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



You know how I interpret deg C? I remember that normal body temp is 37C, which is 98.6F.

Some areas are expecting low 40's, eh? That's way, WAY over 100F.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 11:51 PM

BRENDA


No work for me tomorrow. Had to call my boss to find out. She said she's been meaning to call me all week but kept forgetting.

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Thursday, June 24, 2021 11:55 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

You know how I interpret deg C? I remember that normal body temp is 37C, which is 98.6F.

Some areas are expecting low 40's, eh? That's way, WAY over 100F.



I might have known that about body temp in C but I am not really much good with it.

Yeah, I know. Those over 100F is out towards the Valley, places like Abbotsford, Mission, Chilliwack. There will be cooling stations set up in all the areas expecting those temps and I would imagine even in my city, Vancouver too.

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Friday, June 25, 2021 12:06 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm actually a pretty big fan of the metric system, even though I have no way of really comparing any measurements to any real life stuff since US Public Schools are a joke and churn out a bunch of dummies in the global economy.

That being said, I personally think the Celsius scale is pretty limiting.

There's not enough numbers in between actual temperature differences.

I totally get the desire for Base 10, but temperature is just a different animal than most other things that are measured. IMO, there's no reason why you can't call Fahrenheit Base 10. Most of us tend to think of the differences in Fahrenheit temperatures in the tens as it is.

--------------------------------------------------

And he who is not sufficiently courageous to defend his soul — don’t let him be proud of his ‘progressive’ views, and don’t let him boast that he is an academician or a people’s artist, a distinguished figure or a general. Let him say to himself: I am a part of the herd and a coward. It’s all the same to me as long as I’m fed and kept warm.

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Friday, June 25, 2021 10:50 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



No bueno ...

Drought Indicators in Western U.S. Flash Warnings of the ‘Big One’
Summer in the U.S. begins with widespread drought already at historic levels across 11 states. Experts warn of worsening conditions once wildfires start.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-24/historic-drought-sl
ams-entire-western-u-s-as-wildfire-season-looms



Record Heat to Scorch Seattle, Then Spread Across Western U.S.
Seattle on Sunday could reach 103 degrees Fahrenheit (39 Celsius), tying its all-time hottest reading and breaking the 96-degree mark for its warmest June day, said Bob Oravec, a senior branch forecaster at the U.S. Weather Prediction Center. Portland could also tie its record high of 107 on Saturday, with other parts of the region hitting unprecedented levels.
The worst of the heat will be centered on the Northwest and then seep east into Idaho by Monday, though California will also be struck with oppressive conditions. The Golden State’s Independent System Operator, which manages the electric gird, said it’s closely watching the situation. Excessive heat watches stretch the length of California to the suburbs north and west of Los Angeles, where temperatures could reach 110 from Sunday to Monday.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-25/record-heat-to-scor
ch-seattle-then-spread-across-western-u-s


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Friday, June 25, 2021 1:25 PM

BRENDA


Out for my walk in a bit. Bottle of water with me though I will be heading into a nice (read chilly) mall.

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Friday, June 25, 2021 1:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

No bueno ...

Drought Indicators in Western U.S. Flash Warnings of the ‘Big One’
Summer in the U.S. begins with widespread drought already at historic levels across 11 states. Experts warn of worsening conditions once wildfires start.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-24/historic-drought-sl
ams-entire-western-u-s-as-wildfire-season-looms



Record Heat to Scorch Seattle, Then Spread Across Western U.S.
Seattle on Sunday could reach 103 degrees Fahrenheit (39 Celsius), tying its all-time hottest reading and breaking the 96-degree mark for its warmest June day, said Bob Oravec, a senior branch forecaster at the U.S. Weather Prediction Center. Portland could also tie its record high of 107 on Saturday, with other parts of the region hitting unprecedented levels.
The worst of the heat will be centered on the Northwest and then seep east into Idaho by Monday, though California will also be struck with oppressive conditions. The Golden State’s Independent System Operator, which manages the electric gird, said it’s closely watching the situation. Excessive heat watches stretch the length of California to the suburbs north and west of Los Angeles, where temperatures could reach 110 from Sunday to Monday.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-25/record-heat-to-scor
ch-seattle-then-spread-across-western-u-s


Moscow, I read somewhere, is also experiencing record high temps. Meanwhile, some poor Czech village was flattened by tornadoes. TORNADOES??

I hope this isn't the harbinger of a third installment of the Ridiculously Resilient Ridge.

And FWIW, for all of the trouble that it is, I'm sure glad I went xeric. The big buzz in the yard right now is the CA buckwheat.

Somebody needs to kick those stuck lobes of jet stream and get them precessing again.

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Friday, June 25, 2021 4:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Sigs, you bring up an abandoned subject.
I did not elaborate at the time, because it would only distract from the resolution - amid far too much distraction already. I conjured that once the problem had been resolved, you would be able to see the answers to your questions and erroenous assumptions. If you had not been able to understand, I had indicated I would explain to you the details. This is what I normally find, when I fix other people problems - everybody generally understands afterward how things were, and why they didn't see it, but they still don't know how I figured it all out.

That subject was abandoned without resolution. So now I can try to explain it to you.
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm going to refer back to a post that you made about pump cycles, which implied that the less water that you pump out with each cycle means that the pump will go off less often.

But if you pump less water per cycle, the pump will have to go off MORE often in order to keep up with the inflow. It's simple subtraction: water trickling in minus water being pumped out. Maybe you post confusingly, but sometimes your posts sound nonsensical.

Consider the following situation, which may or may not reflect reality.

You have a well, or large bucket or pail, or drum, with water in it.
To discharge the water, a pump is installed, and the pump needs to be able to push water vertically about 2 feet. A 1/10 HP pump will get up about 30 inches, so this is fine. A 1/4 HP pump will get the water up about 11' (132") vertically - vastly more than enough for 30 vertical inches. A 1/3 HP pump is common for this application, but has far more power and pressure than needed. A 1 HP pump pushes the water more than 20 feet vertically (240+ "), to the roof, far too much power and pressure. Instead, a 2 hp pump is installed, still needing to push water vertically 30".

The discharge for this pump goes vertically a couple feet, and before reaching it's peak has a branch-off, a Y-pipe. At the top of the straight portion, the pipe does a U-turn sand dumps into an enclosed jug, or chamber, or reservoir, which can hold 1 gallon of water. The bottom drain orifice does not allow water under pressure to be forced through it, and the reservoir fills up to the 1 gallon capacity. With the 1/10 HP pump, the drain would be adequate to prevent the reservoir from filling in one pump cycle. Once the pump cycle ends, the water can drain out of the reservoir before the next pump cycle restarts. Once the water has drained from the reservoir, it is drained away to never never land, and is never seen from again.
At the branch-off, that pipe goes a little further vertical, then turns horizontal and goes very far, at least 100 feet, then does a U-turn and returns, dumping back into the well the pump is in. This is the overpressure and overfill pipe. Let's call this a "Delay Pipe" for now. The length and slope of this delay pipe is such that the water of the pump cycle starts flowing back into the well about 3 minutes after pump cycle, and finishes flowing in after about 7 minutes following pump cycle.
In addition, the well also has input from a Rainwater Collection assembly. This consists of 2 x 55 gallon drums, draining in parallel into the well, but the inlet is submerged such that the drums do not empty into the well when the inlet is submerged.
Also, other inputs include Laundry water discharge, and Condensate from the A/C, Dehumidifier, or Heating system.
That is the situation.

To start, the float range for the pump in the well is set at about 8", with the upper limit almost overflowing the well rim.
Let's say the pump has been not running for a while, and the Rainwater Collection drums are almost full. A small rain come along, and adds 1 gallon to the Rainwater Collection Drums, topping them off. But due to the humidity before the rain, the Dehumidifier condensed enough to trip the Condensate Pump, which then dumped into the well, and then tripped the float in the well to start the pump.

The pump sends 8 gallons into the discharge pipe. Since the pump is vastly overpowered and overpressured, it quickly fills the 1 gallon reservoir. The remaining 7 gallons goes into the overpressure pipe, where it is delayed until it's return to the well.
With the water level in the well lower, the drain from Rainwater Collection is uncovered, and Rainwater now trickles into the well from the Collection Drums. Let's say 3 gallons from the Drums enter the well. After 3 minutes, water from the delay pipe flows in, and after about 5 minutes, the 8 gallons is replentished, the float trips again, and a 2nd pump cycle kicks off, pumping out 8 gallons again (3 g from Rainwater Collection, and 5 g from the first cycle's 7 g overpressured).
The water level has dropped 8 gallons, but the 2 gallons from the first cycle still flows into the well. Rainwater Collection drain trickles into the well again, but because the water level in the well is higher, the drain inlet is submerged quicker. About 1 gallon of Rainwater Collection flows into the well, and after about 5 minutes from the prior cycle, another 5 gallons from the delay pipe flows in, restoring the 8 gallon mark, and the pump cycle kicks off again.
This continues and repeats.
The first cycle sent 1 gallon away to never never land, never to be seen again. The 2nd cycle sent another gallon away. Every cycle pumps 8 gallons, and each time the first of those gallons drains away, not to be seen again.
If the pump cycle is 5 minutes, and there is no more rain coming from anywhere, then removing 1 gallon per cycle means 12 gallons per hour is removed, and the 110 gallons in the Rainwater Collection drums will need 110 pump cycles, about 9 hours of the pump cycling every 5 minutes, to drain empty. As long as no other condensate, laundry, or rain adds to it.
YOU would calculate this as 8 gallons per pump cycle, for 880 gallons of water to pump out the one gallon of rain which kicked off the sequence.

Now let us adjust the float range to 5 inches, and no longer at the top rim of the well. This makes a 5 gallon volume per pump cycle.
The 1st pump cycle kicks off. The first gallon goes to the reservoir, never to be seen again. The remaining 4 gallons of overpressure water goes to the delay pipe.
The same 5 minute cycle seems to apply, this has little or no change due to the reduced float range.
Although the rain stops now, the same 1 gallon per overpowering pump cycle is drained away to never never land, and the 110 gallons of Rainwater Collection system still takes HOURS of 5-minute pump intervals to empty the Rainwater drums.
Now YOU calculate that, with 5 gallons per pump cycle, there is 550 gallons of rainwater instead of the single gallon of rainwater which kicked it all off.

Reducing the range from 8" to 5" increased the efficiency, instead of removing 1 gallon per 8 gallons pumped we moved to 1 gallon per 5 gallons pumped.

I said if we reduce the float range to 3" or less, then there would be less work, and more efficiency. If we got the pump cycle volume to be less than the capacity of the reservoir (which is 1 gallon in the above example), then every pump cycle would have none of the pumped water returning to the well in delayed fashion.
If the range was 1" in the above example, the Rainwater Collection drain would almost never be submerged, so the Collection drums would practically always be empty, and every pump cycle would be 100% effective, not returning pumped water to the well.
Then YOU would calculate the actual number of gallons entering the system (or loop), which would all be going off to never never land.

Understand?

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Friday, June 25, 2021 5:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I read partway into your description of how it is that discharging fewer gallons per cycle leads to fewer required cycles, and what I see is that you're making a LOT of assumptions as to how you think SIX's drainage system is working, or not. You're assuming a functional "reservoir", a flow restriction, and a return pipe, none if which might exist as functions in SIX's system (yes, I understand the hydraulic equivalents of resistance, capacitance, and inductance as well as critical orifices and the problem of leaks.)

You're ASSUMING that the pump overpressrizes the drainage and that the overpressurized water leaks out and returns to the sump.

In simple terms, I think what you're envisioning is a drainage pipe full of water under pressure, squirting out at every possible crack close to the foundation, and making its way to the sump. I don't know if that's the case, altho it is a possibility.

Just from my experience with instruments that used water-based solvents under high pressure, I think the crtical factors are as follows:

Water is essentially imcompressible, but air is compressible.

The system will only become pressurized if water is being pumped into the drainage pipe faster than it can flow out, and THAT will be determined by the smallest opening in the system and the dead volume before the smallest opening (which acts as the "reservoir" that you mentioned) in which water accumulates before reaching the critical restriction.

What is the pump output in gallons per minute?

What is the dead volume to the narrowest pipe diameter? That determines your "reservior".

What is the maximal flow at normal pressure through the smallest diameter drainage pipe?

I apologize if you've taken all this into account already. I know you spent a lot of time trying to suss out the exact configuration of SIX's drain pipes, and you had access to a diagram which I didn't see. And, quite honestly, SIX's description leftme baffled so I stopped trying to follow it. But those would be the critical parameters that I'd be trying to establish first, before I tried to detail anything else.




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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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Friday, June 25, 2021 11:16 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


There's no high pressure at the drain.

It's a ridiculous assumption that I discounted nearly immediately.

I have a clean out valve past the pipe that I repaired a few years ago. You can pull the top right off of that and look at the water FLOWING out towards the street from there.

It's a lot of water, but it's not busting pipes.

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And he who is not sufficiently courageous to defend his soul — don’t let him be proud of his ‘progressive’ views, and don’t let him boast that he is an academician or a people’s artist, a distinguished figure or a general. Let him say to himself: I am a part of the herd and a coward. It’s all the same to me as long as I’m fed and kept warm.

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Saturday, June 26, 2021 12:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Well then, I think that answers the question!

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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

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