REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

In the garden, and RAIN!!!!

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, May 28, 2022 19:26
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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 8:28 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I will read your other post later. I'm not ignoring it. Had a very long day.


Installed 63 feet of drainage pipe on the two garage downspouts as well as the back porch downspout that fed right in the center of the sand pit.

I was filling a 6 gallon pail and using that to figure exactly where the breaking point would be for the water to go down the driveway and adding a few feet to that for good measure.

I was unable to put the adapters after the elbows. That just lead to 90% of the water leaking out of the adapters and tubes and ending up right at the base of the garage.

I actually had to cut the downspout on the porch/shed 8 inches higher than it was to install that pipe. Using pavers, I was able to get it high enough to clear the driveway and roll downhill, although I'd bet there is about 3 or 4 gallons of standing water in the ribs right now.

It actually doesn't look nearly as bad as I thought it might. The black tubes don't look terrible on the black asphalt.

I gave them all a real good test by dumping about 4 or 5 gallons a few times directly into the downspouts and making sure it wasn't leaking by the foundation and it was rolling down the driveway.

Mission accomplished, I think.



That should be all the roof water from both sides of the garage and the back side of the porch out of the equation now.

Even better, two of the pipes travel along where the grass and driveway meet, and it's very easy to move them slightly out of the way to mow the lawn and then put them right back.


Oh yeah, and I mowed the lawn before it got dark too.

I'm exhausted.




I got about 35 or so feet of tube left to play with on the other 3 downspouts which will be plenty.


The Tee and Wye are completely out of the question. If I were to have joined those two downspouts at the end of the shed/porch together with one before draining it out to the street it would have only ended up in dumping all of the roof water from the back porch and 80% of the entire front of the house right next to the shed slab wherever the Tee/Wye was.

This system relies entirely on gravity and is the exact opposite of water tight.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 9:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 9:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix,
When you get to your sump well, you might have a float with a threaded rod attached, and an upper stop and lower stop. Those control the height difference from start of pump to end of pump. You can add water to make it trip on, look at the water level, or mark that level, and then what the water level is when it stops.



Have you considered using a shower curtain instead of door on the basement shower? Using that once per month helps keep all the plumbing in working order. Resale values really get boosted by more bathrooms and bath/showers. More than entire garages. Sometimes more than another bedroom.

Are you saying your "sump" is outside the livable space of basement, outside the heated portion, left to freeze in the winter?

Personally, I love tri-level homes. But I don't know how yours is situated.
I think you said your entire front side has a crawl space. Does this entire crawlspace have a concrete floor? Is there any part of crawlspace that does not have concrete floor? The porch is above a crawl space? You think water goes from sand pit to under the porch, and somehow into the sump well? That would be going through the basement wall?
Is there a wall between the livable basement and the crawlspace? concrete wall? I think the pump is near the front of the house, and near the wall which the porch is attached to. How far from the livable part is the pump/well away from? Alternately what I'm looking for is how far from the pump could a pipe reach 7 1/2 feet above the basement floor? I assume the kitchen area prevents a pipe from going 7' above the pump, even trying to sneak into a closet or something.

Starting with the basement, lets call that level 1, if I understand correctly. Then what you call the crawl space, sounds like it has the same floor level as the basement, but not headroom, lets call that level 0.5, if I am correct. So that is the whole front of the house, facing the street, the whole length?
Level 1.5 would be above the crawlspace, the lowest full sized level on that part of the house - does that span about 15 feet from the front of the house? That includes the kitchen, and what else? Front foyer, living room, office, toilet?
Level 2 would be directly above the full height portion of the basement, right? That has a bedroom, toilet, anything else? That is all along the backside of the house, no view of the street in front?
Is there another level above the kitchen level? That would be Level 2.5, if I am correct.
Is there another level above level 2?
At some point there is an attic, or half attic. Is that on the front of back side?

When you say the waste water sewage pipe goes out the back, do you imagine that goes to the side street, under your sand pit, between house and garage?

Thanks for helping me understand.


I wanted to cover the grass surface against the basement wall, so you could plan and evaluate before you started digging and tarring, and not need to re-do the digging.



The next topivs I plan are


Sump/Septic discharge

Sump/septic intake

Sand pit drainage

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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 9:51 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
When you get to your sump well, you might have a float with a threaded rod attached, and an upper stop and lower stop. Those control the height difference from start of pump to end of pump. You can add water to make it trip on, look at the water level, or mark that level, and then what the water level is when it stops.



It's a float with a thread. I hate it. It was an emergency replacement when the Zoeller broke. That had the pump go straight up and down on the side.

I think a problem is that the new one never drains below the inlet pipe from outside. I'm assuming that this is a problem?

I'll know more soon when I go down there and take measurements and get to know the system better again. Should be soon.


Quote:

Have you considered using a shower curtain instead of door on the basement shower? Using that once per month helps keep all the plumbing in working order. Resale values really get boosted by more bathrooms and bath/showers. More than entire garages. Sometimes more than another bedroom.


Yes I have. But there is nothing behind it either except for bare studs. Maybe I'll try pouring some water from a bucket down there and see what happens. It's gotten almost zero use in 10 years.

Quote:

Are you saying your "sump" is outside the livable space of basement, outside the heated portion, left to freeze in the winter?


Yes, but not left to freeze. It's a wide open layout in the house, and there has never been a door installed after I gutted the basement. One time years ago when I kept the heat really low in my house the water pipes in the kitchen froze a bit on me, but that hasn't been a problem in 5 or 6 years. I also have a oil heater down there I can plug in if it ever got too frigid.

Quote:

Personally, I love tri-level homes. But I don't know how yours is situated.


I personally hate them and would never own one again. Not even one that wasn't on a flood plain.

Quote:

I think you said your entire front side has a crawl space. Does this entire crawlspace have a concrete floor? Is there any part of crawlspace that does not have concrete floor? The porch is above a crawl space? You think water goes from sand pit to under the porch, and somehow into the sump well? That would be going through the basement wall?


Yes. Entire front is crawl space. Dirt crawl. No cement on top. Just heavy-ish visquene that turns into a waterbed if the sump isn't working and water is coming in.

The porch is above A crawl space, but is blocked off from the sump well by the original house foundation. It was a very shitty addition made well after the house was originally built, but before anybody gave two craps about code enforcement apparently.

I don't know if it ever gets into the main crawl space. But it's not a 24/7 pool under the porch floor, so it must end up going somewhere.

Water doesn't go into there from a french drain. It comes in from cracks in the cinderblock walls. I patched quite a bit of it from inside, but those walls are just terrible. I resigned myself to just making the top that will be exposed look pristine and tarring over it this year.

Quote:

Starting with the basement, lets call that level 1, if I understand correctly. Then what you call the crawl space, sounds like it has the same floor level as the basement, but not headroom, lets call that level 0.5, if I am correct. So that is the whole front of the house, facing the street, the whole length?


Level 0.5 is the entire length of the front half of the house under the 1st floor, which I guess we'd call 1.5. It shares the same floor as the basement 1.0, but is lower since it's just a dirt crawl, and the dirt is graded from every angle to the sump well which is quite a bit lower then the entry into the crawl from 1.0.

Quote:

Level 1.5 would be above the crawlspace, the lowest full sized level on that part of the house - does that span about 15 feet from the front of the house? That includes the kitchen, and what else? Front foyer, living room, office, toilet?


Yeah. It's around 15 feet from the front of the house to the wall... To the stairwell going both up to 2.0 and down to 1.0.

Kitchen and living room. No toilets. The toilets are on 2.0 and 1.0 and both feed into the crap tube going out the back of the house.

Quote:

Level 2 would be directly above the full height portion of the basement, right?


Yeah.

Quote:

That has a bedroom, toilet, anything else? That is all along the backside of the house, no view of the street in front?


2 bedrooms, one bathroom. All along the back of the house. The porch/shed only shares a wall with the front of the house, so the back portion is a lot shorter.

[Is there another level above the kitchen level? That would be Level 2.5, if I am correct.


Yeah. My nighmare of a finished attic that has been creaking and cracking. Drywall has bowed in and popped screws. The 2nd layer of plywood has popped up in a few spots. I don't know if this is a top down problem with the roof, or a bottom up problem with the foundation settling.

Speaking of settling, it's been quite unsettling, TBH...

Quote:

Is there another level above level 2?


Kind of. "3.0" would be like the inverse of the crawl space. they actually finished it in two rooms, but you couldn't really do anything on the carpet up there except for crawl around or lie down on it.

Quote:

At some point there is an attic, or half attic. Is that on the front of back side?


The larger part, 2.5, would be all along the front. As long as you're not a giant you can walk upright on that half toward the center, but half of the walls are the bottom of the roof. Nobody but a 4 year old or younger could stand in 3.0 all along the back side of the house.

Quote:

When you say the waste water sewage pipe goes out the back, do you imagine that goes to the side street, under your sand pit, between house and garage?


I don't know where it goes. It's the only drain pipe the city didn't map out when I needed to get the stumps removed because it was nowhere near the trees.

If it's anything like the gas, it goes straight back toward the neighbor behind me, and then along the easment to the street, but I couldn't say.

Quote:

Thanks for helping me understand.


Thank you for the tips and the interest.

Quote:

I wanted to cover the grass surface against the basement wall, so you could plan and evaluate before you started digging and tarring, and not need to re-do the digging.


Sounds good. It won't be tomorrow that I'm doing this. I think I want to get past potential rainy season and wait until at least June. I've still got all that kitchen work to do anyhow. So we've got time to discuss it.

Quote:

The next topivs I plan are


Sump/Septic discharge

Sump/septic intake

Sand pit drainage




Cool bud. Thanks.


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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 9:57 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

We are going to be putting an end to that, if I have my way.
Record what the interval was around the time of actual rain, or up to an hour after. That is the time we might compare to when we work out solutions.
After a few hours of no rain, those intervals are BS that we will fix.


This is not an exact question, but if you tried to route PVC pipe from your wash machine around to your main sewer pipe at the rear of your house, what would be the obstructions, problems? Same for the sump to the main sewer pipe? This is not really the plan, but I'm interested in the path a pipe could take to the rear main pipe.

Also, is there some utility room or closet adjacent to the kitchen?

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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 10:02 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

We are going to be putting an end to that, if I have my way.



Hey man. I'm all for it.



Quote:

Record what the interval was around the time of actual rain, or up to an hour after. That is the time we might compare to when we work out solutions.


I've got a ton of measurements for the first day. A good deal for the 2nd day, and increasingly less the last two days.

Worst time was around 4 minutes and 45 seconds, which I believe was about an hour after the 3.5" of rain stopped.

Quote:

After a few hours of no rain, those intervals are BS that we will fix.


Sounds great.


Quote:

This is not an exact question, but if you tried to route PVC pipe from your wash machine around to your main sewer pipe at the rear of your house, what would be the obstructions, problems? Same for the sump to the main sewer pipe? This is not really the plan, but I'm interested in the path a pipe could take to the rear main pipe.


If we tried doing any of that, you'd have to crawl under pipes to get to the back "bedroom" down there, and you'd probably have to stand on a bucket and pee over a pipe in the bathroom.



Quote:

Also, is there some utility room or closet adjacent to the kitchen?



There is a wall dividing the large livingroom from the kitchen. To the left of the entry door is a coat closet, and when you walk past that and turn into the kitchen there is a larger/deep "pantry" closet, which is behind the stove in the kitchen.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 10:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN



Does your basement have a floor drain with grate/cover? Has this ever bubbled up water from backup? where is it located? how close to the nearest wall? wooden wall or concrete?
Now that I understand better, I need to review posts that you've already posted.
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
When you get to your sump well, you might have a float with a threaded rod attached, and an upper stop and lower stop. Those control the height difference from start of pump to end of pump. You can add water to make it trip on, look at the water level, or mark that level, and then what the water level is when it stops.

It's a float with a thread. I hate it. It was an emergency replacement when the Zoeller broke. That had the pump go straight up and down on the side.

I think a problem is that the new one never drains below the inlet pipe from outside. I'm assuming that this is a problem?

This adds to the problem, is certainly not optimal.
What is the problem with the float depth? Ran out of threaded rod length? Obstruction at the bottom preventing float from dropping? If it is crowded at the bottom, can the pump be scooted to a corner or far side, so that the float can freely drop? Take along an empty milk jug (1/2 gal is better) and a pail to empty out the bottom, unless you already left them there before. When you can't run the pump, this is the way to empty the well
Or else, currently, if you understand the switches that activate the pump and stop it, then trigger the pump on until it gets all the way down and starts sucking air. When you hear air sucking, or it is empty, then turn off the pump with other switch. A sponge from that point can make working down there easier. The highest nut on the threaded rod should be the setting for depth at pump shutoff. put that a lot higher and see if the float can freely fall all the way down without rubbing or obstruction. If the float is too fat, there should be skinnier options at the store. If the rod is not long enough, get a longer threaded rod at the store. Connect a water hose to a faucet, with a on/off tip on the end, drag it up to the well, and use that to test your adjustments and depth, freedom of movement.
BTW, this adjustment to increase stroke will increase the "on" time of the pump (still less than a minute), and should increase wait interval until the next cycle
Quote:



Quote:

Have you considered using a shower curtain instead of door on the basement shower? Using that once per month helps keep all the plumbing in working order. Resale values really get boosted by more bathrooms and bath/showers. More than entire garages. Sometimes more than another bedroom.
Yes I have. But there is nothing behind it either except for bare studs. Maybe I'll try pouring some water from a bucket down there and see what happens. It's gotten almost zero use in 10 years.

Oh, bare studs? Never mind. To keep the plumbing working, wrap a cheap curtain around the shower head a few laps, duct tape it there, and run some water, hot and cold, to keep the knobs, valves, drain wet and working every once in a while. If something doesn't work, you can put it on your list of future projects, no urgent need of repair.
Quote:



Quote:

Are you saying your "sump" is outside the livable space of basement, outside the heated portion, left to freeze in the winter?
Yes, but not left to freeze. It's a wide open layout in the house, and there has never been a door installed after I gutted the basement. One time years ago when I kept the heat really low in my house the water pipes in the kitchen froze a bit on me, but that hasn't been a problem in 5 or 6 years. I also have a oil heater down there I can plug in if it ever got too frigid.

Quote:

Personally, I love tri-level homes. But I don't know how yours is situated.
I personally hate them and would never own one again. Not even one that wasn't on a flood plain.

Quote:

I think you said your entire front side has a crawl space. Does this entire crawlspace have a concrete floor? Is there any part of crawlspace that does not have concrete floor? The porch is above a crawl space? You think water goes from sand pit to under the porch, and somehow into the sump well? That would be going through the basement wall?
Yes. Entire front is crawl space. Dirt crawl. No cement on top. Just heavy-ish visquene that turns into a waterbed if the sump isn't working and water is coming in.

The porch is above A crawl space, but is blocked off from the sump well by the original house foundation. It was a very shitty addition made well after the house was originally built, but before anybody gave two craps about code enforcement apparently.

I don't know if it ever gets into the main crawl space. But it's not a 24/7 pool under the porch floor, so it must end up going somewhere.

Water doesn't go into there from a french drain. It comes in from cracks in the cinderblock walls. I patched quite a bit of it from inside, but those walls are just terrible. I resigned myself to just making the top that will be exposed look pristine and tarring over it this year.


I think I'm beginning to understand. The foundation is underneath the entire outline of all of the walls of the house proper. Concrete walls are on top of that foundation, all the way up to ground level, about 3 1/2 feet, and then some.
Only half of the basement has concrete floor, and the crawlspace does not. Is that code in your area?
The attached porch has concrete or brick buried into the ground, outside the basement wall, but you don't know how far down, and it does not have foundation.
Is that right?


Does your front door enter the living room?
OK. Here is a great Q. On the floor with your kitchen & living room, is there any Utility room, or closet? Any voids in the walls? I thought you said there was some abandoned venting or ductwork in some wall - is that still the case? which wall, how far from nearest other wall? how far from main sewer pipe? what dimensions of ductwork/void? This could be your solution.
Quote:




Quote:

Starting with the basement, lets call that level 1, if I understand correctly. Then what you call the crawl space, sounds like it has the same floor level as the basement, but not headroom, lets call that level 0.5, if I am correct. So that is the whole front of the house, facing the street, the whole length?
Level 0.5 is the entire length of the front half of the house under the 1st floor, which I guess we'd call 1.5. It shares the same floor as the basement 1.0, but is lower since it's just a dirt crawl, and the dirt is graded from every angle to the sump well which is quite a bit lower then the entry into the crawl from 1.0.
Quote:

Level 1.5 would be above the crawlspace, the lowest full sized level on that part of the house - does that span about 15 feet from the front of the house? That includes the kitchen, and what else? Front foyer, living room, office, toilet?
Yeah. It's around 15 feet from the front of the house to the wall... To the stairwell going both up to 2.0 and down to 1.0.

Kitchen and living room. No toilets. The toilets are on 2.0 and 1.0 and both feed into the crap tube going out the back of the house.
Quote:

Level 2 would be directly above the full height portion of the basement, right?
Yeah.
Quote:

That has a bedroom, toilet, anything else? That is all along the backside of the house, no view of the street in front?

2 bedrooms, one bathroom. All along the back of the house. The porch/shed only shares a wall with the front of the house, so the back portion is a lot shorter.
Quote:

Is there another level above the kitchen level? That would be Level 2.5, if I am correct.

Yeah. My nighmare of a finished attic that has been creaking and cracking. Drywall has bowed in and popped screws. The 2nd layer of plywood has popped up in a few spots. I don't know if this is a top down problem with the roof, or a bottom up problem with the foundation settling.

Speaking of settling, it's been quite unsettling, TBH...

I'm curious. Have you ever checked the level of your house? Is the settling tipping the house forward? Is the back half of the house perfectly level, but then the front half tipping forward?
Not sure if you know, but buildings are like upside down boats, with the dirt/ground/mud being the water - the fluidity is measured in years instead of seconds. The entire basement having no concrete floor would mean it would settle quicker, but evenly overall. The entire basement having concrete floor would settle far slower, and evenly overall. Only half the basement with floor pored out to the foundation? That is why I asked if it was code.
Quote:


Quote:

Is there another level above level 2?
Kind of. "3.0" would be like the inverse of the crawl space. they actually finished it in two rooms, but you couldn't really do anything on the carpet up there except for crawl around or lie down on it.
Quote:

At some point there is an attic, or half attic. Is that on the front of back side?
The larger part, 2.5, would be all along the front. As long as you're not a giant you can walk upright on that half toward the center, but half of the walls are the bottom of the roof. Nobody but a 4 year old or younger could stand in 3.0 all along the back side of the house.
Quote:

When you say the waste water sewage pipe goes out the back, do you imagine that goes to the side street, under your sand pit, between house and garage?
I don't know where it goes. It's the only drain pipe the city didn't map out when I needed to get the stumps removed because it was nowhere near the trees.

If it's anything like the gas, it goes straight back toward the neighbor behind me, and then along the easment to the street, but I couldn't say.

You might be able to ask the water dept, or Street dept.
Quote:


Quote:

Thanks for helping me understand.
Thank you for the tips and the interest.
Quote:

I wanted to cover the (topic of) grass surface against the basement wall, so you could plan and evaluate before you started digging and tarring, and not need to re-do the digging.
Sounds good. It won't be tomorrow that I'm doing this. I think I want to get past potential rainy season and wait until at least June. I've still got all that kitchen work to do anyhow. So we've got time to discuss it.
Quote:

The next topivs I plan are


Sump/Septic discharge

Sump/septic intake

Sand pit drainage

Cool bud. Thanks.


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Wednesday, May 12, 2021 11:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're either at 35 minutes or 70 minute between sump off/sump on cycles. I may have missed one in between. I'll pay attention to it tonight when I settle in.

We are going to be putting an end to that, if I have my way.

Hey man. I'm all for it.

Quote:

Record what the interval was around the time of actual rain, or up to an hour after. That is the time we might compare to when we work out solutions.
I've got a ton of measurements for the first day. A good deal for the 2nd day, and increasingly less the last two days.

Worst time was around 4 minutes and 45 seconds, which I believe was about an hour after the 3.5" of rain stopped.
Quote:

After a few hours of no rain, those intervals are BS that we will fix.
Sounds great.

Quote:

This is not an exact question, but if you tried to route PVC pipe from your wash machine around to your main sewer pipe at the rear of your house, what would be the obstructions, problems? Same for the sump to the main sewer pipe? This is not really the plan, but I'm interested in the path a pipe could take to the rear main pipe.
If we tried doing any of that, you'd have to crawl under pipes to get to the back "bedroom" down there, and you'd probably have to stand on a bucket and pee over a pipe in the bathroom.


Is that for both the wash machine and sump pump?
Maybe I wasn't clear. If the pipe was routed along the walls like the current wash-to-sump routing, how would it go? Not straight shot across open spaces.

Can you describe the layout of the basement? Where are stairs, bathroom, bedroom, other walls, game room, laundry room, HVAC unit, water heater, those abandoned venting ductwork. What sequence going from the end wall shared with the living room toward the wall shared with the porch?
Quote:


Quote:

Also, is there some utility room or closet adjacent to the kitchen?

There is a wall dividing the large livingroom from the kitchen. To the left of the entry door is a coat closet, and when you walk past that and turn into the kitchen there is a larger/deep "pantry" closet, which is behind the stove in the kitchen.

Good info. We shall have solution options, currently waiting on your measurements of sump well. You will be able to choose the best path for you.


Also, to ensure my understanding, your front wall discharge pipe is near the porch, sump, and under your kitchen. And your rear crap pipe is near the center of the back wall? Practically against the wall?

I wonder if your front discharge goes out, turns around the corner, under the bricks of the porch and slab of shed, and merges with the main pipe somewhere in the back yard.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 5:11 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

Went for my bi annual mammogram yesterday afternoon. They twist my neck one way and push me onto the glass plate then move my knees another and move my arms.

They do this each time they take a picture.

Not my idea of fun. I'm a little sore but nothing drastic.

I'm glad that's what that was, and nothing serious!

I have a funny story ... which I may have told before ...

... but one time I want in for mine, the 20's something tech, who was a woman of VERY few words, said, in order: "Put your right arm in." "Take your right arm out." "Put your right arm in."

So of course I began singing " ... and you shake it all about. You do the hokey pokey ..."

Apparently she'd never heard the song. She looked at me like I was some incomprehensible alien.

Anyway, ** I ** thought it was funny!

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 9:12 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Does your basement have a floor drain with grate/cover?



No.

Lowest point of entry for any water is sump well. Next lowest would be the shower drain through the concrete to the sump well.

Quote:

This adds to the problem, is certainly not optimal.
What is the problem with the float depth? Ran out of threaded rod length? Obstruction at the bottom preventing float from dropping? If it is crowded at the bottom, can the pump be scooted to a corner or far side, so that the float can freely drop?



I don't remember. I think it was a lot of problems. Those rope floats suck... at least on a cheap Coleman that replaced my cast iron Zoller that died from air-lock (When I moved in there was an even cheaper RIGID brand piece of shit in there that failed. The well isn't super wide.

That crawl is the source of my nightmares man. I've had to do emergency swaps in frigid November and February water, naked, up to my waist not once, but twice.

Quote:

Take along an empty milk jug (1/2 gal is better) and a pail to empty out the bottom, unless you already left them there before. When you can't run the pump, this is the way to empty the well Or else, currently, if you understand the switches that activate the pump and stop it, then trigger the pump on until it gets all the way down and starts sucking air. When you hear air sucking, or it is empty, then turn off the pump with other switch. A sponge from that point can make working down there easier. The highest nut on the threaded rod should be the setting for depth at pump shutoff. put that a lot higher and see if the float can freely fall all the way down without rubbing or obstruction. If the float is too fat, there should be skinnier options at the store. If the rod is not long enough, get a longer threaded rod at the store. Connect a water hose to a faucet, with a on/off tip on the end, drag it up to the well, and use that to test your adjustments and depth, freedom of movement.


I'm never going to get it dry with a sponge now. This is work that needs to be done when I'm back to not hearing that pump go off for a day or two like before the rain. I have a cup down there. It's the only thing that really fits in the well around the pump.

I told myself I was going to work on this last summer, but always found other work and never did it. I've been subconsciously avoiding this problem until now.

Quote:

BTW, this adjustment to increase stroke will increase the "on" time of the pump (still less than a minute), and should increase wait interval until the next cycle


I think I need a whole new pump for that. This thing is a piece of shit.

I think I also need to dig the well deeper, and have a longer pipe going up to the drain.

Quote:

Oh, bare studs? Never mind. To keep the plumbing working, wrap a cheap curtain around the shower head a few laps, duct tape it there, and run some water, hot and cold, to keep the knobs, valves, drain wet and working every once in a while. If something doesn't work, you can put it on your list of future projects, no urgent need of repair.


Alright.

Quote:

I think I'm beginning to understand. The foundation is underneath the entire outline of all of the walls of the house proper.


Maybe? I can't say what's under that dirt crawl. It's lower than the concrete in the living area.

Quote:

Concrete walls are on top of that foundation, all the way up to ground level, about 3 1/2 feet, and then some.


That's how it is where you can live.

Quote:

Only half of the basement has concrete floor, and the crawlspace does not. Is that code in your area?


The real question is, would it matter if it was?

I grew up in Crook County, IL. Every time I expose something I'm always bringing it up to Crook County code or removing it if it's not worth the effort (like the dish washer).

I sure hope they don't build new houses like this anymore. Especially tri-level homes on flood plains.

Quote:

The attached porch has concrete or brick buried into the ground, outside the basement wall, but you don't know how far down, and it does not have foundation.
Is that right?



I'm assuming there is no foundation.

When I fixed the porch floor I graded the dirt from the walls and made it low in the center after removing all of the rusty beer and paint cans and the tons of other debris before putting two layers of the patio pavers from the sand pit on top of it, criss crossed, then putting on a layer of visquine.

Quote:

Does your front door enter the living room?


Yeah.

Quote:

OK. Here is a great Q. On the floor with your kitchen & living room, is there any Utility room, or closet? Any voids in the walls? I thought you said there was some abandoned venting or ductwork in some wall - is that still the case? which wall, how far from nearest other wall? how far from main sewer pipe? what dimensions of ductwork/void? This could be your solution.


There's no abandoned duct work in the walls. There's some sort of duct work that goes from level 1.0 all the way up to 2.5/3.0 for the pipe above the water heater.

The abandoned duct work is in the crawlspace, where there is an abandoned slab and gas pipes for a low profile furnace which I assume was removed by the prior homeowner after a flood ruined it.

My only current furnace is a 60's model Janitrol piece of shit. An upflow unit that drags the heat right under the ceiling before dispursing it through 6 insulated snakes that feed out to the ceilings on 1.5 and 2.0, three per floor.

The missing furnace would put heat out into 1.0 through the walls and 1.5 through the floors, but there is no heat in the crawl or livable basement except for residual heat from the attic unit.

Quote:

I'm curious. Have you ever checked the level of your house? Is the settling tipping the house forward? Is the back half of the house perfectly level, but then the front half tipping forward?


Nothing here is level man. Nothing is so out of level that the bubble is out of the box, but it's not great. It's impossible to do any measurements outside of the house since they have two layers of siding.

Inside you can measure, but it's hard to say how much new damage has occurred. These assholes didn't know how to build anything right. Even the tiles in the kitchen weren't installed level. My baseboard trim was a real trick trying to get installed so it was touching the floor all the way across a room because the hardwood floors aren't level.

I've been in really bad houses before. This isn't that. But it's not ideal either. If there is new damage occurring now, it should be fine if I can manage to stop it from getting any worse.

Quote:

Not sure if you know, but buildings are like upside down boats, with the dirt/ground/mud being the water - the fluidity is measured in years instead of seconds. The entire basement having no concrete floor would mean it would settle quicker, but evenly overall. The entire basement having concrete floor would settle far slower, and evenly overall. Only half the basement with floor pored out to the foundation? That is why I asked if it was code.


Like I said, I don't think it matters if it is code. We don't have any point of sale inspections or other such nonsense out here. Old shit is grandfathered as long as the house isn't falling apart and deemed unsafe. Just need to make sure the house stops moving if that's what happening now.

Quote:

You might be able to ask the water dept, or Street dept.


Yeah. Probably. But it does go out the back.


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Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 9:45 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Is that for both the wash machine and sump pump?
Maybe I wasn't clear. If the pipe was routed along the walls like the current wash-to-sump routing, how would it go? Not straight shot across open spaces.



It would have to be a straight shot through the very tight laundry room/water heater room, straight shot across the hallway, through the bathroom and to the pipe. The only way around that would be burying pipes by breaking up the good tile job and breaking concrete and then trying to get that water back up and out, or putting the pipes up into the ceiling after the living area starts. Otherwise, if you tried to just put them where the crap tube is it would be about abdomen level right through the hallway to the back room down there.

Quote:

Can you describe the layout of the basement? Where are stairs, bathroom, bedroom, other walls, game room, laundry room, HVAC unit, water heater, those abandoned venting ductwork. What sequence going from the end wall shared with the living room toward the wall shared with the porch?


The stairs in the house are all roughly in the center. When you walk in the front door, straight across are the stairs from 1.5 to 2.0. If you were to turn left when you get on 2.0 and walk 2 feet, there is a door leading to the stairs to 2.5. Directly under the stairs leading from 2.0 to 2.5 are stairs going down from 1.5 to 1.0. These stairs going down are directly across from the large and deep pantry closet behind the stove I mentioned.

There's a room right down the stairs that could be considered a 2nd living room or rec room. Maybe around 15' x 15' if it weren't for the bathroom intruding into it across from the stairs and the stairs themselves. (This is "porch side", although there is no porch connection on the liviable side of the house... just in the crawl)

If you turn right after going downstairs you're in the hallway. On the left is the door to the bathroom. On the right are two entrances. One is the entrance to the crawl which is below the stairs going up from 1.5 to 2.0. The 2nd is the small laundry room with the water heater (so small that there is unfortunately no freakin' slop sink in the house).

Walk a little further past the bathroom and laundry and there is a final room that is a little smaller than the first room in the basement. (This is the end wall shared with the living room, closest to the neighbor's house).

Duct work is all in the crawl. About 2/3rds of it is missing. Slab for furnace is directly to the left when you enter the crawl. The return for the system is cut into the stairs and there used to be grates installed over the carpet on top of them. (Carpet is a bad idea in a basement that floods, BTW... but I know that you're not a dummy like the previous owners).

Quote:

Good info. We shall have solution options, currently waiting on your measurements of sump well. You will be able to choose the best path for you.


Yeah. I'll try to get you those soon. I might do a bit more with the drainage outside on the 3 remaining downspouts if I get a brilliant idea while sanding down the remaining shelves and drawers I need to prep and prime so I can start painting all of the kitchen stuff. I'm doing it outside today since I don't want any more sanding going on inside and we've finally got a bright sunny day in the 60's today.

Quote:

Also, to ensure my understanding, your front wall discharge pipe is near the porch, sump, and under your kitchen.


Yeah.

Oh... and probably not very relavent, but maybe it is...

When the guy from the city came out to look for the water in and water out pipes, I asked him what he was marking just like I did whenever I caught anyone else out there. He had my drain pipe coming out to the front street coming from under the hasta bed/front porch slab around the center of the house where the living room would be.

I told him "wait a minute... That's not my drain pipe". I showed him the clean-out valve in front of the kitchen sink, and that goes all the way on an angle toward the corner of the property. We have no idea what that first pipe he found was and if it's an old abandoned drain line or something.

He wasn't exactly high-tech. He had a little bent rod he'd hold loosely in his hand and it would point in whatever direction the pipe was going.


Quote:

And your rear crap pipe is near the center of the back wall? Practically against the wall?


Yeah. About 2 feet in from the wall maybe. Instead of putting the toilet on the floor and springing for an expensive gravity well to flush it, they just attached that toilet right onto the wall and into the bottom of that pipe.

I hate that toilet. You right leg hits the wall when you sit on it. The cold, cold wall.


Quote:

I wonder if your front discharge goes out, turns around the corner, under the bricks of the porch and slab of shed, and merges with the main pipe somewhere in the back yard.



I sure hope not. That slab has seen better days. Last thing I need is to tear down the entire addition because the crap isn't going where it needs to go.

That crap pipe exits the house about 30 feet from the shed, so that would really suck if they didn't wrap those pipes around the back of the garage and did a shortcut under the shed instead.

It's already bad enough that my front drain pipe goes directly under the center of my only remaining tree outside. When I rodded that out 6 or so years ago there were some tree roots there.


Fucking amateurs.




P.S. The sump was around 35 minutes last night. Not 70. I missed one. It was over 36 minutes when I checked it around midnight. Not going to hang around at all inside today to see where we're at. I'll take a note of where it's at tonight.

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Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 10:44 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


If you get a chance, JSF, could you put a checklist of all the measurements you wanted together for me so I can tick them off.

I'll try to go by memory when I do it, but I think those questions spanned multiple posts and since that's the next step it would be good to know exactly what you want so I don't miss anything.

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Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 1:51 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:

Went for my bi annual mammogram yesterday afternoon. They twist my neck one way and push me onto the glass plate then move my knees another and move my arms.

They do this each time they take a picture.

Not my idea of fun. I'm a little sore but nothing drastic.

I'm glad that's what that was, and nothing serious!

I have a funny story ... which I may have told before ...

... but one time I want in for mine, the 20's something tech, who was a woman of VERY few words, said, in order: "Put your right arm in." "Take your right arm out." "Put your right arm in."

So of course I began singing " ... and you shake it all about. You do the hokey pokey ..."

Apparently she'd never heard the song. She looked at me like I was some incomprehensible alien.

Anyway, ** I ** thought it was funny!



Yeah, started when I turned 50. Anyways when I was done the I told the tech that I was freaked by being there and she agreed that everyone is and then added, "Please come back in 2 years."

That is funny and something I might have done to lighten the situation up a bit.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 1:52 PM

BRENDA


Bright sunny day. Things to do. Later peeps.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 6:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Jack, I've been sort-of following along with your discussion.

IIRC, your sump pump leads to a pipe that goes through the cellar wall. That was broken on the outside and dumping water right near your foundation. Once you fixed it the water ended up running through an underground pipe that also basically drains into your yard, just not as close to the house ... do I remember right?

It seems like rather than have the laundry and shower formally attached to the sanitary system (via pumps if the house sanity pipe is higher than the shower and laundry waste-outlets), a previous owner simply hijacked the sump well to do the work.

In many places a shower and laundry tubs/ machines are NOT considered 'grey water', they're considered 'black water'. So whoever hijacked the sump for the shower and laundry might not have been doing it to code. In that case, being grandfathered-in would be a very good thing!

But it could contribute to excess surface water downslope of you - which is fine - unless it ponds up and the pond creeps up higher and higher with rainfall.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 7:14 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If you get a chance, JSF, could you put a checklist of all the measurements you wanted together for me so I can tick them off.

I'll try to go by memory when I do it, but I think those questions spanned multiple posts and since that's the next step it would be good to know exactly what you want so I don't miss anything.

Diameter of well.
Depth of well. From bottom to top rim.
difference in height from "pump on" depth to "Pump off" depth.


Those are the 3 I am waiting for.

While you are down there, others which may be useful:
height from dirt floor (top of well rim) to where the discharge pipe goes through the wall.
Height from dirt floor to the bottom of the floor joists of the kitchen floor.
If there is space between the floor joists, then the height from the dirt floor to the highest point between the floor joists.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 7:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix, to confirm my understanding:
Your basement 15' x 15' room. one wall is back of house, other wall is end of house, shared with kitchen. Are either of these finished walls, or just bare concrete?

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 9:09 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Diameter of well.



Roughly 18.5", inside diameter.

Quote:

Depth of well. From bottom to top rim.


Unknown. I now remember i put a patio paver in there to shim it up during the emergency fix when the pipe to the check valve was too short. (Making my bad install even worse).

There used to be visible stones under it. Now it's just unidentified sludge.

Top of the well to the paver is around 15 to 16". It varies down to the top of the gunk, but around 18".

Quote:

difference in height from "pump on" depth to "Pump off" depth.


About 7".

Now I remember why the cord is so short. If it were much longer, the pump wouldn't go off until the water was at the very top of the well or higher.

Quote:

Those are the 3 I am waiting for.


Good. I got them all. But here's more...

There is a 4" inside diameter inlet. I can only assume this is from the french drain.

When I went down the well was damn near full. It didn't take much lifting of the float to get it to run, but who knows how much longer it would have taken for it to do it on its own.

Not only is the entire 4" inlet submerged, but before I triggered the pump it was submerged by an entire 4 more inches above the outside diameter of that pipe, so at least 4.5" from the top of the inside diamter of that inlet.

When the pump stops, the water is still about 1.5" above the bottom of the 4" inlet, and between whatever small backflow that comes in and the running water coming in from the inlet, it doesn't take more than a few seconds to be halfway covered.

I then held the float up until the pump was sucking in air, which would be about an additional 4 or 5 inches than it normally goes. The water flow is fairly heavy from the inlet when the water is below it. Imagine a slow pour lemonade into a tall glass. It's just about that heavy.


I think this is actually quite a serious problem, and it may have been doing a lot of damage ever since the emergency pump replacement. I think it's quite possible that gravity was keeping water in the french drain far longer than it needed to for years and years now.

What do you think?


I NEVER should have replaced that old pump with an entirely different system with that stupid float on a wire. It's just not deep enough as is for that type of pump.

Quote:

While you are down there, others which may be useful:
height from dirt floor (top of well rim) to where the discharge pipe goes through the wall.
Height from dirt floor to the bottom of the floor joists of the kitchen floor.
If there is space between the floor joists, then the height from the dirt floor to the highest point between the floor joists.



On my to-do list. Probably get it for you tomorrow.







Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix, to confirm my understanding:
Your basement 15' x 15' room. one wall is back of house, other wall is end of house, shared with kitchen. Are either of these finished walls, or just bare concrete?



It's not really 15 x 15 in that room. It would be if there were no stairs intruding into it, and the outside wall of the bathroom intrudes into it to the end of the stairs...

But yes. One wall is back of house, other wall is end of house shared with kitchen. It's the only finished room in the basement, sans baseboard. I got sick of looking at bare studs since there's a very open layout and a low "overlook" from the kitchen made it look even worse. I did, however, replace all the shitty Romex with legit conduit before I sealed it back up.








Oh... I forgot to get the picture prepared to show you of the pipes in and above the well JSF (if somebody identifies me or my house with that, they deserve to find me).

It's hard to explain how it's hooked up from memory, but I'm 100% confident that kitchen sink water doesn't get into the sump well. The sump has that check valve, then it goes higher than the drain pipe before going back down and into it. I'd imagine 100% of the sink water gets right outside. Any time I've looked in the check valve with the kitchen sink running it all appears to go outside.

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Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 9:19 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Jack, I've been sort-of following along with your discussion.

IIRC, your sump pump leads to a pipe that goes through the cellar wall. That was broken on the outside and dumping water right near your foundation.



Yes.

Quote:

Once you fixed it the water ended up running through an underground pipe that also basically drains into your yard, just not as close to the house ... do I remember right?


No. That goes out to the whatever sewer it spits out to.

I'd actually like to figure out a way to have a pipe that just goes out of the house so I can attach a hose to it and then rig my system so I can switch from one to the other in case my city sewer ever backs up again and I would have a way of at least getting the water out of my basement instead of panicking until 4:30AM wondering if I'll ever be able to turn it back on before everything floods.

Quote:

It seems like rather than have the laundry and shower formally attached to the sanitary system (via pumps if the house sanity pipe is higher than the shower and laundry waste-outlets), a previous owner simply hijacked the sump well to do the work.


Good 'ole Uncle Bob. That rascal.

Quote:

In many places a shower and laundry tubs/ machines are NOT considered 'grey water', they're considered 'black water'. So whoever hijacked the sump for the shower and laundry might not have been doing it to code. In that case, being grandfathered-in would be a very good thing!


Oh... I'm SURE they would never allow you to do that in new construction here. Too close to Chicago for that to fly.

But talking to neighbors around here, it's actually quite common around here in these old houses. So at least I'm in good company and Uncle Bob did everybody's plumbing back in the 60's.



Quote:

But it could contribute to excess surface water downslope of you - which is fine - unless it ponds up and the pond creeps up higher and higher with rainfall.



Well fortunately for me it's a one man house and I don't have a ton of laundry. And I always use the 2nd floor shower which is drained properly. The only working plumbing in the basement right now is the toilet which does go where it's supposed to go. The pipes for the vanity down there would drain correctly too whenever I get that installed, so it would just be the shower that was a problem.

Thanks for the input.





--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 9:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Alright, I should have mentioned last night that I think I had caught up to completing all of my posts.


Some asides:
Shower drain
If I understand, the shower drain runs from about midway along the back wall (not far from the main crap pipe) all the way to the farthest corner, the sump well under the kitchen corner - all under the concrete floor. This is beyond hijacking, this is a clear plan when pouring the concrete floor.

Sump "wire" and threaded rod and float(s)
I don't understand when you are talking about these terms. Is your threaded rod vertical? Or something else? You can explain more if you wish - we can correct these things, but it might be a moot point soon.

Uncle Bob. I assume this is a fictional character.




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Thursday, May 13, 2021 10:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Alright, I should have mentioned last night that I think I had caught up to completing all of my posts.


Some asides:
Shower drain
If I understand, the shower drain runs from about midway along the back wall (not far from the main crap pipe) all the way to the farthest corner, the sump well under the kitchen corner - all under the concrete floor. This is beyond hijacking, this is a clear plan when pouring the concrete floor.



Maybe, maybe not...

There is no limit to the dumbass shit that Uncle Bob is capable of. The entire basement floor is tiled except for the back bedroom which I assume had waterlogged carpet at some point.

For all I know somebody jacked their way through all that concrete, badly, then poured concrete over the pipe they put in, and covered it up with tile.

That's just about how bad everything else in this house was done. For all I know it was originally just a one bathroom house when it was built.

Quote:

Sump "wire" and threaded rod and float(s)
I don't understand when you are talking about these terms. Is your threaded rod vertical? Or something else? You can explain more if you wish - we can correct these things, but it might be a moot point soon.



Nah. It's a long damn cord with a float attached to it. You can shorten the cord with a clip on the unit by unscrewing it first.

If I were to make the cord longer, the unit would cycle longer and the water would be lower when it finished. But by making it longer it also makes it take longer for the float to activate, and it already waits until the well is almost full to turn on. (As I said in the last post to you, this water was at least 4.5" above the 4" inlet from the french drain as it is).

Quote:

Uncle Bob. I assume this is a fictional character.


Yeah. Almost everybody has an Uncle Bob. Uncle Bob likes beer and works for beer. Uncle Bob thinks he's a carpenter because he saw a hammer in a magazine once.

I also like to tell people that my entire house was built on a Friday.

Think about it....




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Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 10:54 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I'm considering buying the Wayne 1HP pump. It's around $200 all over and comes very highly rated. Side float, like I want. On at 9", off at 4".

I could dig the well out a bit and take my time and do a proper install. Get a new check valve on there while I'm at it.




Anyhow... Got some pics for you now JSF.

PIC 1: Shows all the pipes above ground. And my hair dryer that's been dangling there for like 6 years. Don't need down there anymore now that I keep the house at a reasonable temp in the winter. I could actually use it for my hair now that it's long though.

Right to the right of the cord the hairdryer is hanging on, going up at an angle, you can see the pipe that comes down from the kitchen sink. I'm actually not sure what the pipe going left of the hair dryer cord is (I'm going to investigate that next time I'm down there).

The PVC going down at an angle in front of the hair dryer is the laundry water.

That pipe out of the foundation is lower than I pictured it in my head. (BTW... that pipe is the one that was cracked outside. Fortunately for me, the nub outside the foundation was at least 2.5 to 3.5" and was enough for me to put the rubber coupler and clamps on. I don't know what I would have done had that sheered off right against the foundation)

But now with the pic you can see why I think it would be impossible for any kitchen water to get into the sump well, right?




PIC 2: This is what greeted me when I first went down and pulled the visqueen up (that paver is there to block the water from the relief hole from splashing all over the place, with the visqueen draped over it. I will angle that down next time so I don't need that.)

In the back behind the pump, you can see the 4" inlet pipe. That's 4" of water just sitting on top of it, and the pipe material is at least 1/2" thick, so that water sits there and isn't shot off until at least 4.5" of water is above the inlet pipe.

Oh... BTW... I can't speak for the entire crawl space, but I'd say that ground is more like clay than dirt. For what it's worth.



PIC 3: This is what it looked like after I held the pump float up until the unit sucked a tiny bit of air in. I'm not sure if you can make it out, but that's a steady stream of water falling in from the bottom of that pipe. When I let the pump turn off on it's own, the water level is about halfway up the 4" pipe and gets covered fairly quickly.

(These images are all quite large, so you can right click and open them to zoom in)








Oh... and around 9:00PM the sump pump went off after 46 minutes and 56 seconds.

That was 2 cycles after I had made it pump more than it usually does, so that should be the legit time. It was probably a little longer after I'd held it until the unit was sucking in air, but I'm going to guess not too much longer. I think it fills up a lot quicker when the water can just fall in instead of trying to force its way in when there is 4" of water above the pipe.


--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 11:33 PM

BRENDA


Email from my boss. Work for me tomorrow. Little later than usual. Have to be there after 11am.

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Thursday, May 13, 2021 11:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Email from my boss. Work for me tomorrow. Little later than usual. Have to be there after 11am.

Is that good news?

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Friday, May 14, 2021 12:04 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Alright, I should have mentioned last night that I think I had caught up to completing all of my posts.


Some asides:

Sump "wire" and threaded rod and float(s)
I don't understand when you are talking about these terms. Is your threaded rod vertical? Or something else? You can explain more if you wish - we can correct these things, but it might be a moot point soon.

Nah. It's a long damn cord with a float attached to it. You can shorten the cord with a clip on the unit by unscrewing it first.

If I were to make the cord longer, the unit would cycle longer and the water would be lower when it finished. But by making it longer it also makes it take longer for the float to activate, and it already waits until the well is almost full to turn on. (As I said in the last post to you, this water was at least 4.5" above the 4" inlet from the french drain as it is).


Sometimes you don't want to spend a couple bucks, sometimes you want to throw away hundreds.
I saw your pictures. I have no idea what you are talking about "cords" or "wire" and I suspect you don't have a threaded rod, horizontal or vertical.
I do not suggest you buy a new pump right now, I cannot imagine it will help much at this point. Maybe after some other things, and after you have thought some things out.

Do you have a linky to some part number or model number of a pump setup that is similar to what you have? I don't think I've seen a system without adjustments before.



From your measurements, it seems your 22 sec of pumping is moving about 2 gallons of volume. When I checked mine, it was around 8 gallons.

With your Pump on switch so high, your laundry water is coming in and then going out to your drainage tile around your house. At least your drainage tile and foundation is getting soapy and clean regularly.



I had thought your sump well was concrete, didn't know it was dirt or stone. No need to go digging there right now - after we have a plan, you may wish to investigate the true depth of that. If you installed a couple inch vertical extension of discharge pipe, then you could get that paver out from under the pump. That could be worthwhile, but you don't need to put yourself out right away if you hate it.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 12:20 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix,
Sump Pump Discharge.

I am going to explain how a normal Sump system works, You might already know some of this, or all of it, but this is to establish a common reference point.
For various reasons, this does not apply to you, but we will work towards some of the solutions I have.


Sump Pump has it's discharge pipe going up to the ceiling of the basement/space, from the bottom of the well. This is often PVC pipe.
This pipe will eventually go outside the wall of the house, and usually above the top of the concrete block, so it is merely going through a hole in the wood wall. This means the upward pipe reaches up into the ceiling, between the floor joists of the floor above. Then it turns horizontal to go out through the wooden wall.
Once outside, the pipe turns down and the discharge water can be directed or not. If not, then some concrete or rock splash surface can get hit by the discharge. At my house, I had to add an elbow and a few feet of straight PVC to get past my the edge of my house.

With this setup, during pumping, the discharge water shoots out of my 1 1/2" pipe about 10 feet horizontally.
When the pump cycle stops, the water that has already reached the peak height of the pipe then drains via gravity out the outside pipe. The water which has not reached the full height of the pipe settles back down via gravity to the bottom of the well.


One of the reasons you cannot do this is because you do not actually have a sump pump, yours is a Septic/Sewage pump. You cannot discharge that outside.




We do need to pump your discharge to a sewer pipe leaving your house.

Your current problem(s).
Your pump is creating pressure. Water supply plumbing is intended to sustain and endure pressure. That is the water coming in.
Waste water, sewer water piping is not designed or intended to withstand pressure - it is intended to solely endure gravity pressure.
So when your pump discharge is forcing high pressure into your sewer pipes, they are not made to endure that. All around your house, where that kitchen drainage pipe goes, to your back yard to join with your main crap pipe, and then (during flooding) back into your house via the main crap pipe to push your toilet water out - all of that is being subjected to excessive pressure. I have no doubt that all of those seams, joints, etc are "leaking" radically everytime your current pump runs.
This means that your pressure leaks are then filtering back down to your tiling, back into your sump well, and you recycle the whole works all over again - no matter if there is rain or not.
When we remove the pressure element and allow only gravity flow , then we will be able to find out how well your pipes have survived.



Do not go off half-cocked with some of the following options and proposals. Evaluate them when you can absorb them all. Think of these as me spitballing - you might use one or more of the ideas, or we can work out others. But think of the concepts and value of what these ideas represent. And our final solution may be much better.
Ways for us to avoid/reroute/eliminate your current problems.
We need to use gravity to let out your discharge water.


Deep Sink.
There are pretty cheap Deep Sinks I found at Home Depot - I recall about $11, but that may have been some sale price. BTW, I finally conjured why the HD parking lot was packed - remember there was a Levin Surge for Home Depot not succumbing to Stacey Abrams, BLM, Antifags, and the ilk.
Anyway, conjure if you put a deep sink in the back corner of your pantry, next to your kitchen. If you ran the pump discharge pipe up and through the floor in that corner of your pantry, and up to the ceiling of the pantry, then U-turned right back down and into the deep sink, then that deep sink would be able to hold the entire volume of that pump cycle, and then the drain of the deep sink could go via gravity, through the floor again, to mate with your kitchen output/discharge. This would eliminate the pressurized discharge problem beating up your sewer pipes - replaced with simple gravity, which you know your kitchen sink already works with.
Once the pump cycle stops, the gravity will drain the whole volume before the next pump cycle starts again.
Negative: this introduces a Wet Area into your pantry, which you might not want.

Enclosed PVC pipe alternative.
Based upon your measurements, and I want a total of 10" drop from Pump Start to Pump Stop, we can also make an enclosed pipe pressure alleviation setup.
Conjure this: your discharge pipe goes straight up, as high as it can, in between the floor joist beams of the kitchen floor. 2 Elbows turn the pipe first horizontal and then down (this creates the peak height), and then another elbow makes it horizontal again, all of this in between the floor joists. This is all still the same diameter PVC pipe that you already have. Then you have adapters to greatly expand the size of the pipe, for a distance - maybe even a U-turn if you run out of room. At the end of this large pipe, elbow angles down about 45 degrees to the side, then reducers to get back to the original size, and then into your existing join with the kitchen discharge.
This extra sized pipe would have capacity to accept all of the well pump volume, while dissipating all of the pressure, and turning it into gravity flow.
the large pipe could be one of the following: 4" (inside) diam x 46" length, 5" diam x 37" length, 6" diam x 31" length, 7" x 27", or 8" x 23".
Never mind those figures - bad calculations.
Corrected figures: 4" diam x 54" length, 5" x 36", 6" x 24", 7" x 18", 8" x 14".

Extra length is no harm, just have the reducer at a down-slope part of the piping.



I have other options, but how do you feel about the basic concepts of those 2?

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Friday, May 14, 2021 9:10 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Sometimes you don't want to spend a couple bucks, sometimes you want to throw away hundreds.



You do two emergency sump pump replacements, naked, in freezing cold water, with time ticking quickly before your livable area space gets flooded again, and coming out to thaw out while your lips are turning blue. Then tell me that $200 on a sump pump is throwing away money.

This thing is already 6 or so years old. It's got a ton of "shit" covering it. It cost half as much as the cast iron Zoeller that I had in there before it.

Quote:

I saw your pictures. I have no idea what you are talking about "cords" or "wire" and I suspect you don't have a threaded rod, horizontal or vertical.



What's so difficult to understand? Especially with the pictures. You see what the float looks like.

I looked up the terms. They have "Tethered" float switches, and "Vertical Rod" float switches. Mine now is a "Tethered" float switch. The two I had before it were "Vertical Rod" float switches.

To get the same on/off action you'd get from a Vertical Rod with a Tethered, you'd need a much deeper well. Before I did the emergency fix which required me to get a patio paver to further shim it up another 2 or 3" inches, the old Vertical Rod pumps turned on WAY earlier and didn't let the well get to almost full.


Quote:

Do you have a linky to some part number or model number of a pump setup that is similar to what you have? I don't think I've seen a system without adjustments before.


I don't know what you're asking for. I don't know what you mean by a system without adjustments either.

Quote:

From your measurements, it seems your 22 sec of pumping is moving about 2 gallons of volume. When I checked mine, it was around 8 gallons.


Nope. I just used a volume calculator here: and I get about 8 gallons too.

https://www.sensorsone.com/length-and-diameter-to-volume-calculator/

(18.5" diameter x 7 inches = 8.1455 gallons.)

The water sits at over 4.5" above the top of the inlet pipe when it starts. Before backflow and the tile dumping water back in, which happens quickly, the water stops at around 1.5" up the 4.5" diameter hole.

That's at least 7 inches.

Quote:

With your Pump on switch so high, your laundry water is coming in and then going out to your drainage tile around your house. At least your drainage tile and foundation is getting soapy and clean regularly.


I think you're missing the point that the well is almost always full and quite high above that inlet and not allowing water from the tile to fall freely into the well. It used to with the old pumps.

Now that I'm learning more about drainage and it's likely there is a perforated pipe outside there somewhere, not only am I putting soap out to it when I wash, but I'm probably putting water out near the foundation too. If that drain tile is just sitting full all the time, it could be leaching water back into the soil around the house. We should make no assumptions on the height of anything here. It might be installed lower than it should be.

And I wouldn't exactly call that pit clean. It's disgusting to touch and everything has about a 2mm "film" on it. I can't imagine the tile looks any better.

Quote:

I had thought your sump well was concrete, didn't know it was dirt or stone. No need to go digging there right now - after we have a plan, you may wish to investigate the true depth of that. If you installed a couple inch vertical extension of discharge pipe, then you could get that paver out from under the pump. That could be worthwhile, but you don't need to put yourself out right away if you hate it.



It is concrete. At least the walls are. Who knows what the bottom is made of or if there even is one. When I first put that pump in, there were stones down there that I put the paver on top of. Now it's covered with sludge.



EDIT: I got a pic from this page here: https://www.triadbasementwaterproofing.com/blog/2016/08/12-signs-its-t
ime-to-replace-your-sump-pump
/



See how the inlet pipes are really high up compared to the water level?

If you saw how fast the water pours into the well from the inlet when the pump gets water out down to a few inches below it, I think you'd understand why I feel this thing has to be deep enough to turn off only when it's a few inches below that inlet pipe instead of letting water get to nearly five inches above it before it turns on.


--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 9:31 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


This is where I wish I'd payed more attention to some more advanced math calculations and physics terms in high school.

I'm just throwing up a pic here, although I have no idea if it's really illustrating my point...



I'm afraid of some sort of equilibrium action going on here. Obviously not a perfect equilibrium or water wouldn't get high enough in the well to ever be pumped out at the current setting...

But it took nearly 10 hours during a 3.5" rain storm to get to the point that it was going off every 4.75 minutes. And now, 4 1/2 days later, it's still going off every 50 or so minutes and we haven't had any additional rain.



I think if the water were able to flow freely into the well all the time with the on/off cycles set far lower in the well than they currently are, than it would fill up unhindered the moment water started getting into that drain tile, rather than having to fight gravity or whatever forces are at play when water is trying to reach an equilibrium.

I think that water is always fighting to get in the well because the pump is set so high. So that's why action is slow for the first half or more of a large storm like we had, but then we reach a sort of "Critical Mass" where now there is finally enough water all around the foundation trying to get into the tile to force enough up high in that well to get the pump off, and that's why all of the sudden we go from no cycle that day, to 2 hours between, then 45 minutes between, then 15 minutes between then 5 minutes between and then it takes days and days to finally go back to only going off once or so per day.

And that's only assuming we don't get continual rain like we have the last 5 years before this one. That poor pump is only 6 years old but has done 15 years worth of work. It was going off every 4 or 5 minutes for a few months just last year.

And actually, if I could find where I recoreded the sump cycles last year, I believe that during the worst times last year it was about every 2.5 minutes that it would go off.

So imagine how quickly my clay crawl was turning into a water bed under that visqueen when I had to turn the pump off for 6 straight hours when the city sewer backed up in the middle of that 12" storm last may. Not factoring in any equilibrium physics at play, that was about 8 additional gallons of water in the crawl every 2.5 to 5 minutes that the thing wasn't working.

I was already mopping water that leaked in from the foundation from 8:30PM the night before. Would have ruined my day if all that work had been for nothing and the water from the crawl got into the living area. We were close. I think if it took another hour before I could put the sump on I'd have had a half inch of water in the entire living area in no time.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 9:49 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
Sump Pump Discharge.

I am going to explain how a normal Sump system works, You might already know some of this, or all of it, but this is to establish a common reference point.
For various reasons, this does not apply to you, but we will work towards some of the solutions I have.


Sump Pump has it's discharge pipe going up to the ceiling of the basement/space, from the bottom of the well. This is often PVC pipe.
This pipe will eventually go outside the wall of the house, and usually above the top of the concrete block, so it is merely going through a hole in the wood wall. This means the upward pipe reaches up into the ceiling, between the floor joists of the floor above. Then it turns horizontal to go out through the wooden wall.
Once outside, the pipe turns down and the discharge water can be directed or not. If not, then some concrete or rock splash surface can get hit by the discharge. At my house, I had to add an elbow and a few feet of straight PVC to get past my the edge of my house.

With this setup, during pumping, the discharge water shoots out of my 1 1/2" pipe about 10 feet horizontally.
When the pump cycle stops, the water that has already reached the peak height of the pipe then drains via gravity out the outside pipe. The water which has not reached the full height of the pipe settles back down via gravity to the bottom of the well.


One of the reasons you cannot do this is because you do not actually have a sump pump, yours is a Septic/Sewage pump. You cannot discharge that outside.



Well... Yes and no. The only thing that I have used in the last 10 years since I've been here that isn't water coming from outside is the laundry, and I guaranty that I use it less than any of the previous occupants of the last 40 years did, since the last one was a 3 member family and the occupants before had 7 people.

There's no pee or poop going out there. Right now it's just laundry detergent. At worst, when there is a working shower downstairs that people use you'd add shampoo, soap, dirt and body odor.

I'd still like to figure out a way where I could manually switch it to spit the water out a pipe directly outside with a hose on it in case the city ever floods again. It's better than having no way of getting that water out and just crossing my fingers.

Quote:

We do need to pump your discharge to a sewer pipe leaving your house.

Your current problem(s).
Your pump is creating pressure. Water supply plumbing is intended to sustain and endure pressure. That is the water coming in.
Waste water, sewer water piping is not designed or intended to withstand pressure - it is intended to solely endure gravity pressure.
So when your pump discharge is forcing high pressure into your sewer pipes, they are not made to endure that. All around your house, where that kitchen drainage pipe goes, to your back yard to join with your main crap pipe, and then (during flooding) back into your house via the main crap pipe to push your toilet water out - all of that is being subjected to excessive pressure. I have no doubt that all of those seams, joints, etc are "leaking" radically everytime your current pump runs.



Yeah. Probably right. A lot does go out though. It's easy to see it by pointing a flashlight down the cleanout valve when the pump goes off. I check that regularly to make sure the water always flows toward the street and never comes back to the house. That happened once when the pipe needed to be rodded out many years back, but it's good now. Lots of water goes out to the street every time the pump goes off, so that woudln't account for very much of the issue here right now, IMO.

Quote:

This means that your pressure leaks are then filtering back down to your tiling, back into your sump well, and you recycle the whole works all over again - no matter if there is rain or not.
When we remove the pressure element and allow only gravity flow , then we will be able to find out how well your pipes have survived.



OK

Quote:

Do not go off half-cocked with some of the following options and proposals. Evaluate them when you can absorb them all. Think of these as me spitballing - you might use one or more of the ideas, or we can work out others. But think of the concepts and value of what these ideas represent. And our final solution may be much better.
Ways for us to avoid/reroute/eliminate your current problems.
We need to use gravity to let out your discharge water.


Quote:

Deep Sink.
There are pretty cheap Deep Sinks I found at Home Depot - I recall about $11, but that may have been some sale price. BTW, I finally conjured why the HD parking lot was packed - remember there was a Levin Surge for Home Depot not succumbing to Stacey Abrams, BLM, Antifags, and the ilk.
Anyway, conjure if you put a deep sink in the back corner of your pantry, next to your kitchen. If you ran the pump discharge pipe up and through the floor in that corner of your pantry, and up to the ceiling of the pantry, then U-turned right back down and into the deep sink, then that deep sink would be able to hold the entire volume of that pump cycle, and then the drain of the deep sink could go via gravity, through the floor again, to mate with your kitchen output/discharge. This would eliminate the pressurized discharge problem beating up your sewer pipes - replaced with simple gravity, which you know your kitchen sink already works with.
Once the pump cycle stops, the gravity will drain the whole volume before the next pump cycle starts again.
Negative: this introduces a Wet Area into your pantry, which you might not want.

Enclosed PVC pipe alternative.
Based upon your measurements, and I want a total of 10" drop from Pump Start to Pump Stop, we can also make an enclosed pipe pressure alleviation setup.
Conjure this: your discharge pipe goes straight up, as high as it can, in between the floor joist beams of the kitchen floor. 2 Elbows turn the pipe first horizontal and then down (this creates the peak height), and then another elbow makes it horizontal again, all of this in between the floor joists. This is all still the same diameter PVC pipe that you already have. Then you have adapters to greatly expand the size of the pipe, for a distance - maybe even a U-turn if you run out of room. At the end of this large pipe, elbow angles down about 45 degrees to the side, then reducers to get back to the original size, and then into your existing join with the kitchen discharge.
This extra sized pipe would have capacity to accept all of the well pump volume, while dissipating all of the pressure, and turning it into gravity flow.
the large pipe could be one of the following: 4" (inside) diam x 46" length, 5" diam x 37" length, 6" diam x 31" length, 7" x 27", or 8" x 23". Extra length is no harm, just have the reducer at a down-slope part of the piping.



I have other options, but how do you feel about the basic concepts of those 2?




I'd prefer option 2. Too many water issues in levels 0.5, 1.0, 2.5 and 3.0 for me already over the years. For 10 years now levels 1.5 and 2.0 have been dry and I don't want to be the reason that streak ends.



I'd probably need some sort of diagram to put together what you're saying on number two, but I think I get the general concept.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 10:51 AM

THG


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Let's see ... biofreeze is a topical agent that provides a skin-generated sensation that might block pain sensations from reaching the spine (like a chemical TENS), but otherwise doesn't address pain (either indirectly as an anti-inflammatory or centrally).

So, because it doesn't really address pain centrally or the causes of pain, taking out biofreeze from the experience with things you tried, currently you're using ---
neck: heat (injury, muscle spasm), mechanical support
shoulder: diclofenac (inflammation), heat (injury, muscle spasm), mechanical support

From earlier it sounds like either the meloxicam (inflammation) or pregabalin (nerve pain) worked well since the 2 of them together were effective. Perhaps try a few doses of meloxicam (as per label or prescription dosing instructions) (since you may have more of those, try them first) to rule out inflammation ...

Shoulders are extremely sensitive to minor tissue swelling since the brachial nerve has such tight clearance. But as I recall you had shoulder pain going down to your hand in the past that was caused by a pinched nerve in your neck. In general, arthritic pain only goes as far as one joint in either direction. So for example when my shoulder arthritis was really bad, I felt it across to the middle of my clavicle and down to my elbow. If your shoulder pain is going past the next over joint in either or both directions, then it's probably not your shoulder.



Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

THE LOOTING OF UKRAINE
Pepe Escobar

Picture yourself about to meet a girl with kaleidoscope eyes… No. Sorry. Actually picture merry lines of code in the R programming language – wallowing in a happy valley of game theory models which would not preclude Goth or New Romantic Walkyrie dancin’ to the 12-inch version of Bauhaus’s Bela Lugosi is Dead.

Imagine this reverie coming about because of a “pin!” in your inbox. After all you have just been presented with an astonishing piece of intel. You scramble to the exit, actually the entrance of the Magic Theater, where you ask, Keats-style, Was it a dream? Do I wake or sleep?

So what was the dream about? Oh, something so prosaic, so down to the nitty gritty geopolitics: what really happened during the visit of US Secretary of State Tony Blinken to Ukraine.

The great Andrei Martyanov has remarked that Blinken “told Kiev behind the scenes to ‘dial it down’, amidst the fluffy tropes about US concern for Ukraine’s ‘sovereignty’ and ‘security’”.

Well, looks like there was way more than fluffy tropes.

Leaked info on the closed-door meeting between Blinken and Comedian-in-Charge Zelensky is no less than incandescent. Blinken seemed to have read a no holds barred riot act.

Here are the guidelines. All Ukrainian state corporations must be controlled by the proverbial “foreign interests”. So board majorities must be either foreign or 5th columnists. The entire anti-corruption vertical drive must also be foreign-controlled. Same for the judicial system.

Andriy Kobolyev – an American asset – must be reinstated as head of Naftogaz. Zelensky moved mountains to get rid of Kobolyev.

Blinken demanded a massive push against every Ukrainian oligarch, so that huge chunks of Ukrainian economy are transferred to – who else – foreigners. Same for land privatization.

Quote:

This is what we did to Russia 1990-2000, but to a much smaller country and on a much smaller scale. Well, when you're a starving parasite,I guess you can't be too choosy.
Quote:

Somewhat hilariously, Blinken warned that Russian troops might invade Ukraine. In this case, Zelensky can count only on huge political assistance, not military. So Zelensky in fact was ordered to stop asking to join NATO and cease provoking Russia, as President Putin, who already drew red lines, could make a “drastic decision”.

Blinken demanded that American assets should be untouchable by Ukrainian law, and named honored figures of civil society. Maidan cookie distributor Victoria “F**k the EU” Nuland, also in the room, drew up a list of The Untouchables, and Blinken met with them separately.

Finally, the giant ghost hanging over the whole trip to Kiev had to make itself known. In practice, Zelensky was invited to turn in everyone in Ukraine who helped bring information about Hunter Biden to the media via Rudolph Giuliani.

According to the source who had access to the leak, Zelensky was left beyond speechless. That’s not exactly what he was expecting. Especially when it comes to transferring valuable assets controlled by Ukrainian oligarchs to “foreign interests”. Someone will inevitably whack him.

No one is touching this leak – as if it was radioactive poison. No one will confirm it. Its plausibility though cannot be denied.

Contradicting these powerful, left unnamed “foreign interests” is simply out of the question. They now seem to be guided by a "take the money and run” logic, as in taking over the looting of Ukraine lock, stock and barrel before the whole thing – actually a failed state – blows up.

Pity those oligarchs who thought they were going to loot the land through privatization. Instead the money is on a one way out journey. Follow the money. Follow the dream. http://thesaker.is/pictures-of-a-ukrainian-dream/

Quote:


-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

THUGR posts about Putin so much, he must be in love.

Sheesh!

But WTF is Biden* thinking with these moves? It's not as if looting Ukraine is going to help the US economy. It'd be like a starving elephant swallowing a peanut.



FTFY

T



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Friday, May 14, 2021 1:07 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brenda:
Email from my boss. Work for me tomorrow. Little later than usual. Have to be there after 11am.

Is that good news?



Could be.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 1:09 PM

BRENDA


Anyway out to make my way to work. Need to pick up some lunch and maybe one other thing before I head there.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 4:14 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Sometimes you don't want to spend a couple bucks, sometimes you want to throw away hundreds.

This thing is already 6 or so years old. It's got a ton of "shit" covering it. It cost half as much as the cast iron Zoeller that I had in there before it.

Quote:

I saw your pictures. I have no idea what you are talking about "cords" or "wire" and I suspect you don't have a threaded rod, horizontal or vertical.

What's so difficult to understand? Especially with the pictures. You see what the float looks like.

I looked up the terms. They have "Tethered" float switches, and "Vertical Rod" float switches. Mine now is a "Tethered" float switch. The two I had before it were "Vertical Rod" float switches.

To get the same on/off action you'd get from a Vertical Rod with a Tethered, you'd need a much deeper well. Before I did the emergency fix which required me to get a patio paver to further shim it up another 2 or 3" inches, the old Vertical Rod pumps turned on WAY earlier and didn't let the well get to almost full.
Quote:

Do you have a linky to some part number or model number of a pump setup that is similar to what you have? I don't think I've seen a system without adjustments before.
I don't know what you're asking for. I don't know what you mean by a system without adjustments either.
Quote:

From your measurements, it seems your 22 sec of pumping is moving about 2 gallons of volume. When I checked mine, it was around 8 gallons.
Nope. I just used a volume calculator here: and I get about 8 gallons too.
https://www.sensorsone.com/length-and-diameter-to-volume-calculator/
(18.5" diameter x 7 inches = 8.1455 gallons.)

You are correct, I used the wrong formula - my bad. I corrected the figures in my post.
Quote:


Quote:

With your Pump on switch so high, your laundry water is coming in and then going out to your drainage tile around your house. At least your drainage tile and foundation is getting soapy and clean regularly.
I think you're missing the point that the well is almost always full and quite high above that inlet and not allowing water from the tile to fall freely into the well. It used to with the old pumps.

Now that I'm learning more about drainage and it's likely there is a perforated pipe outside there somewhere, not only am I putting soap out to it when I wash, but I'm probably putting water out near the foundation too. If that drain tile is just sitting full all the time, it could be leaching water back into the soil around the house. We should make no assumptions on the height of anything here. It might be installed lower than it should be.

And I wouldn't exactly call that pit clean. It's disgusting to touch and everything has about a 2mm "film" on it. I can't imagine the tile looks any better.
Quote:

I had thought your sump well was concrete, didn't know it was dirt or stone. No need to go digging there right now - after we have a plan, you may wish to investigate the true depth of that. If you installed a couple inch vertical extension of discharge pipe, then you could get that paver out from under the pump. That could be worthwhile, but you don't need to put yourself out right away if you hate it.

It is concrete. At least the walls are. Who knows what the bottom is made of or if there even is one. When I first put that pump in, there were stones down there that I put the paver on top of. Now it's covered with sludge.


EDIT: I got a pic from this page here: https://www.triadbasementwaterproofing.com/blog/2016/08/12-signs-its-t
ime-to-replace-your-sump-pump
/

See how the inlet pipes are really high up compared to the water level?

If you saw how fast the water pours into the well from the inlet when the pump gets water out down to a few inches below it, I think you'd understand why I feel this thing has to be deep enough to turn off only when it's a few inches below that inlet pipe instead of letting water get to nearly five inches above it before it turns on.

Alright, Tethered Float. I looked it up, and tried to compare to your pics.
If I understand this correctly, you have described your system as only have a range adjustment, not having a height adjustment.
You must have a common-type cord clamp, secured with a screw, which threads into the top of the casing of your pump housing. Let us call that your tether point, or tether pivot.
How much cord you have between the tether pivot and the float is what determines the range, your range adjustment (currently 7").
One thing you need is a height adjustment. If equipped, this would be additional screw holes in the side of your pump housing, and you would need to use the screw hole about 5" below the top of the pump, to be your new tether pivot.
If not equipped, you can make a temporary fix by using 2 zip-ties, 1 small and 1 or more large. The large one (or extending more than one together) would go all the way around the pump housing, about 5" down from the top of the casing (unless there is something around there to fasten to).
The second, small zip tie tucks through that large one, and around the cord - add an inch to where the cord is currently cinched.

This should allow your Pump On and Pump Off positions to be much more functionable.
The more permanent solution would be to make a piece of metal bracket. With a right angle bend, one hole would be made to use the existing or similar screw to fasten the bracket to the top of the pump. The longer part of the bracket would run down the side of the pump, and have drilled and threaded holes every inch or so - which would accept the existing cord clamp and screw - and would be your range adjustments, where the tether pivot would be.



The other thing to do would be to lower your pump deeper in the well. find the bottom of the well (I don't know if you have a Wet Vac, or maybe use a kitty-poo scooper to dig up the crud at the bottom - use a glove). And remove that paver underneath, and add a piece of PVC to connect the new lower position of the pump discharge to the output drain pipe.

The best point for the high level (Pump On) switch is when the inlet tube is only half covered with water. The bottom level (Pump Off) should be 1-2 inches above where the pump sucks air - you want the pump to never suck air when operating on it's own, without your supervision.

Also, the tether pivot point may need to be moved around the side of the pump, so the float can move freely and not hang up on anything in it's range of motion up and down.


eta: Looking at your pic again, is that a ring of screws, about 5 inches below the top of the pump? Can you use one of those to fasten your cord clamp?

Even if you just drop the pump to the bottom, lowering it 2-3 inches, and let out the cord another 2", that would help also.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Doing both, lowering the tether pivot, and lowering the height of the pump, would be the best combination - and your existing pump would work fine in this way.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 5:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
Sump Pump Discharge.

I am going to explain how a normal Sump system works, You might already know some of this, or all of it, but this is to establish a common reference point.
For various reasons, this does not apply to you, but we will work towards some of the solutions I have.


Sump Pump has it's discharge pipe going up to the ceiling of the basement/space, from the bottom of the well. This is often PVC pipe.
This pipe will eventually go outside the wall of the house, and usually above the top of the concrete block, so it is merely going through a hole in the wood wall. This means the upward pipe reaches up into the ceiling, between the floor joists of the floor above. Then it turns horizontal to go out through the wooden wall.
Once outside, the pipe turns down and the discharge water can be directed or not. If not, then some concrete or rock splash surface can get hit by the discharge. At my house, I had to add an elbow and a few feet of straight PVC to get past my the edge of my house.

With this setup, during pumping, the discharge water shoots out of my 1 1/2" pipe about 10 feet horizontally.
When the pump cycle stops, the water that has already reached the peak height of the pipe then drains via gravity out the outside pipe. The water which has not reached the full height of the pipe settles back down via gravity to the bottom of the well.


One of the reasons you cannot do this is because you do not actually have a sump pump, yours is a Septic/Sewage pump. You cannot discharge that outside.

Well... Yes and no. The only thing that I have used in the last 10 years since I've been here that isn't water coming from outside is the laundry, and I guaranty that I use it less than any of the previous occupants of the last 40 years did, since the last one was a 3 member family and the occupants before had 7 people.

There's no pee or poop going out there. Right now it's just laundry detergent. At worst, when there is a working shower downstairs that people use you'd add shampoo, soap, dirt and body odor.

I'd still like to figure out a way where I could manually switch it to spit the water out a pipe directly outside with a hose on it in case the city ever floods again. It's better than having no way of getting that water out and just crossing my fingers.
Quote:

We do need to pump your discharge to a sewer pipe leaving your house.

Your current problem(s).
Your pump is creating pressure. Water supply plumbing is intended to sustain and endure pressure. That is the water coming in.
Waste water, sewer water piping is not designed or intended to withstand pressure - it is intended to solely endure gravity pressure.
So when your pump discharge is forcing high pressure into your sewer pipes, they are not made to endure that. All around your house, where that kitchen drainage pipe goes, to your back yard to join with your main crap pipe, and then (during flooding) back into your house via the main crap pipe to push your toilet water out - all of that is being subjected to excessive pressure. I have no doubt that all of those seams, joints, etc are "leaking" radically everytime your current pump runs.

Yeah. Probably right. A lot does go out though. It's easy to see it by pointing a flashlight down the cleanout valve when the pump goes off. I check that regularly to make sure the water always flows toward the street and never comes back to the house. That happened once when the pipe needed to be rodded out many years back, but it's good now. Lots of water goes out to the street every time the pump goes off, so that woudln't account for very much of the issue here right now, IMO.
Quote:

This means that your pressure leaks are then filtering back down to your tiling, back into your sump well, and you recycle the whole works all over again - no matter if there is rain or not.
When we remove the pressure element and allow only gravity flow , then we will be able to find out how well your pipes have survived.

OK

Quote:

Do not go off half-cocked with some of the following options and proposals. Evaluate them when you can absorb them all. Think of these as me spitballing - you might use one or more of the ideas, or we can work out others. But think of the concepts and value of what these ideas represent. And our final solution may be much better.
Ways for us to avoid/reroute/eliminate your current problems.
We need to use gravity to let out your discharge water.




Enclosed PVC pipe alternative.
Based upon your measurements, and I want a total of 10" drop from Pump Start to Pump Stop, we can also make an enclosed pipe pressure alleviation setup.
Conjure this: your discharge pipe goes straight up, as high as it can, in between the floor joist beams of the kitchen floor. 2 Elbows turn the pipe first horizontal and then down (this creates the peak height), and then another elbow makes it horizontal again, all of this in between the floor joists. This is all still the same diameter PVC pipe that you already have. Then you have adapters to greatly expand the size of the pipe, for a distance - maybe even a U-turn if you run out of room. At the end of this large pipe, elbow angles down about 45 degrees to the side, then reducers to get back to the original size, and then into your existing join with the kitchen discharge.
This extra sized pipe would have capacity to accept all of the well pump volume, while dissipating all of the pressure, and turning it into gravity flow.
the large pipe could be one of the following: 4" (inside) diam x 46" length, 5" diam x 37" length, 6" diam x 31" length, 7" x 27", or 8" x 23". Extra length is no harm, just have the reducer at a down-slope part of the piping.



I have other options, but how do you feel about the basic concepts of those 2?

I'd prefer option 2. Too many water issues in levels 0.5, 1.0, 2.5 and 3.0 for me already over the years. For 10 years now levels 1.5 and 2.0 have been dry and I don't want to be the reason that streak ends.


I'd probably need some sort of diagram to put together what you're saying on number two, but I think I get the general concept.

I'll try to explain more basically.
Conjure you have a pipe going straight down. High pressure water comes in at the top, for a specific mount of time, say 22 seconds. At some point, the pipe expands in size, from 1.5" diameter to suddenly 8" diameter, and goes for several feet in length. Then the pipe get reduced again to the original 1.5" diameter, and continues to flow onward. Inside this "chamber" the water is no longer pressurized, constrained by the walls of the pipe, but becomes a purely gravity-flow velocity, until/unless the entire chamber becomes full of water, then the pressure would be transferred to the output of the chamber. But with only 8 gallons of water in 22 seconds, the chamber never does become full of water. This is similar to a deep sink collecting pressurized water and then draining that volume of water, without pressure, using only gravity flow.
Now, turn that chamber to horizontal, so that it fits in your crawl space without dropping too far down that it cannot connect with your kitchen sewer pipe.

I might try a diagram.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 5:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are correct, I used the wrong formula - my bad. I corrected the figures in my post.



No worries. Glad you concur.

Quote:

Alright, Tethered Float. I looked it up, and tried to compare to your pics.
If I understand this correctly, you have described your system as only have a range adjustment, not having a height adjustment.



Yeah. There's just one screw that secures it at a single height, above the float. Just to reiterate the point, the old pump with the vertical float sees the action on the side, with the low (turn off) point somewhere above the bottom of the float where it would suck in air and the high (turn on) point somewhere before the top of the unit.

So with a cord tethered to the very top of the unit by a screw/clamp, the On/Off action occurs WAY higher than the old pump did. Then I added to that problem by putting a thick cinder block paver underneath to shim it up.

Quote:

You must have a common-type cord clamp, secured with a screw, which threads into the top of the casing of your pump housing. Let us call that your tether point, or tether pivot.
How much cord you have between the tether pivot and the float is what determines the range, your range adjustment (currently 7").



Yes. And this brings up another point...

You mentioned before you wanted my On/Off range at 10". This actually can only be done with a tether float. As far as I can tell, the standard On/Off range for the vertical floats is fixed at 5", although that might not be universal.

Quote:

One thing you need is a height adjustment. If equipped, this would be additional screw holes in the side of your pump housing, and you would need to use the screw hole about 5" below the top of the pump, to be your new tether pivot.
If not equipped, you can make a temporary fix by using 2 zip-ties, 1 small and 1 or more large. The large one (or extending more than one together) would go all the way around the pump housing, about 5" down from the top of the casing (unless there is something around there to fasten to).
The second, small zip tie tucks through that large one, and around the cord - add an inch to where the cord is currently cinched.

This should allow your Pump On and Pump Off positions to be much more functionable.




This is a GREAT idea. I usually come up with things like this, but I hate going down there so much, and I think I have a subconscious block about being down there or doing anything down there. Not only have I done those two horrible freezing water emergency fixes, but I also scorched my lungs once using bleach to clean the visqueen many years back. I didn't know how bad it was until I went out for a break later and a single puff of a cigarette felt like I had just set my lungs on fire. Coffee tasted like bleach for 2 days straight.

I hate that crawl space.

Thanks for that zip tie tip though. That's why I really appreciate the time you're taking here with me on this. I've got to hit up the post office tomorrow morning, so I'll swing by the dollar store and get me some zip ties.

Quote:

The more permanent solution would be to make a piece of metal bracket. With a right angle bend, one hole would be made to use the existing or similar screw to fasten the bracket to the top of the pump. The longer part of the bracket would run down the side of the pump, and have drilled and threaded holes every inch or so - which would accept the existing cord clamp and screw - and would be your range adjustments, where the tether pivot would be.


Well they do say that the average life expectancy of a good sump is around 10 years. It should probably be more for me in ideal situations since it's not even pushing the water up 10 feet, but because of how often it has gone on since it was installed, coupled with the fact that it has a film of indistinguishable crud around it that never used to be there with the old ones, I think it might be time to invest in a new one.

After our discussion I'm not going to run out and buy a new one just yet, especially since a tethered option might be the way to go. But I will be trying the temporary zip tie solution for now and experimenting with it for a while before I research the best new option. It might even be time to get one with a battery backup 2nd unit. Then I wouldn't have to worry about being home to fire up the generator if the power goes out too.


Quote:

The other thing to do would be to lower your pump deeper in the well. find the bottom of the well (I don't know if you have a Wet Vac, or maybe use a kitty-poo scooper to dig up the crud at the bottom - use a glove). And remove that paver underneath, and add a piece of PVC to connect the new lower position of the pump discharge to the output drain pipe.


I've got a wet vac, but I'm not using it on that. I'd rather just get my hands dirty.

I'll be going to my brothers for a few days soon. I probably will work on this part when I get back next week.

Quote:

The best point for the high level (Pump On) switch is when the inlet tube is only half covered with water. The bottom level (Pump Off) should be 1-2 inches above where the pump sucks air - you want the pump to never suck air when operating on it's own, without your supervision.


Okay. Yeah. It turns off around half full and turns on almost 5" above. First thing I will do is fix this and between that and removing all of the roof water in the Bermuda Triangle I will monitor how much better the situation has gotten next time we get a big rain.

Quote:

Also, the tether pivot point may need to be moved around the side of the pump, so the float can move freely and not hang up on anything in it's range of motion up and down.


Oh... I'll be careful about that. I've already gotten that tether caught on the visqueen flap once before I went to visit my brother sometime last fall. By the time I had gotten back the visqueen was a waterbed again. My heart sank, since I thought I'd be doing my 3rd emergency install, but when I went down there I realized right away what had happened. Thanks though.

Quote:

eta: Looking at your pic again, is that a ring of screws, about 5 inches below the top of the pump? Can you use one of those to fasten your cord clamp?


Eeeeeehhh.... I don't think so. That ring looks to me like some sort of seal. There might be a gasket there that I wouldn't want to disturb.

Quote:

Even if you just drop the pump to the bottom, lowering it 2-3 inches, and let out the cord another 2", that would help also.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Doing both, lowering the tether pivot, and lowering the height of the pump, would be the best combination - and your existing pump would work fine in this way.



I had to go to the hardware store to make a few returns and pick up a few other things today, and a 5' length of 1/2" PVC was one of the things I picked up. I thought I had already had one, but it was about 4.5 feet of 2". I had to struggle to remember what that was for, but if memory serves I actually used 2 rubber couplers with a length of PVC in between the drain pipe when I fixed it. Yeah... that is what it was. There was no way I could get a coupler on both ends of the broken pipe, so I had to cut a section out.



I also got 3 4" circular grates for the end of my 3 installed downspout drains. That should keep any curious rodents out.



--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 5:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Trying a diagram for 6ix.





xx___
x/ _ \
| | | |xxxx_____________________ downturned
| | | |xxx/ Depressurizationxxxx\ elbow
| | | |__/ Chamberxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
| |xx\___xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
| |xxxxxx\xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| reducer
| |xxxxxxx\______________xxxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\_______ \xxxxxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ \
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ \
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | gravityxxxxxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | flowxxxxxxxxxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | drainage
| | Pump
| | Pressurized
| | Water



Simplified version, needing a little more vertical height:

xx___
x/ _ \
| | | |xxxx_____________________ downturned
| | | |xxx/ Depressurizationxxxx\ elbow
| | | |__/ Chamberxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
| |xx\___xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
| |xxxxxx\xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\
| |xxxxxxx\______________xxxxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx|xxxxxxxxx|
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxxxx/
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxx/ Reducer
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxx/
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| |xxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| |xxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | gravityxxxxxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | flowxxxxxxxxxx
| |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| | drainage
| | Pump
| | Pressurized
| | Water

x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxxxxx| ngxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx| trxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxxx|axxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxxx| wsxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxxx| asxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xxx| lxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\xx| l water drainage patternxx\x|xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\|

xx|xx|xx|\xx|x\b |xx\a |xxx\s |xxxx\e |xxxxx\ ---diversion materialm |xxxxxx\e |xxxxxxx\n |t |xx|w |a |l |l |



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Friday, May 14, 2021 6:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Hey Brenda - have a good day!

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Friday, May 14, 2021 7:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Before I go back to lurking on the sump pump - Jack - I'm confused ... does your sump pump drain to an underground perforated pipe after it exits the external wall? Or to your kitchen sink waste line, where you see it flowing when you open up the clean-out?

It sounds like you've only actually seen the sump pump outlet water flowing past your kitchen sink clean-out. So the underground sump pump pipe the sump water goes to after it exits the basement wall is a mystery, and it might actually be connected to your home 'sanitary' waste line near the kitchen sink?




FWIW - most places have 2 sewer systems - a 'sanitary' sewer system, and a 'storm' sewer system. The 'sanitary' sewer system collects water from home utilities and goes to some treatment plant, and then is discharged to some low-lying area. The 'storm' sewer system collects surface 'storm' water and goes directly to some discharge point.

AFAIK there are now no more 'combined' systems in the US, they were all eliminated way back before the 90's.

However, there are still systems where, in an intense storm, the storm water can overflow into the sewage system, and make either - or both - back up combined storm/ sewage water - through storm drains or home utilities like toilets or sinks.

Then there's the 'grey' area you seem to have where it MAY be that some of your 'grey water' as well as your surface (sump pump) water might be being dumped onto your property.

It's expensive I think, but there are services that use both fiber-optics plus electronic signalling devices to monitor location. The fiber-optics are run through the waste pipe to check the condition - looking for roots, cracks, cave-ins etc, as well as branches (inlets and outlets). The locator sends a signal that can be detected above ground, to find out where the end of the fiber-optic cable is, and trace the path of your pipes.

Then there are the unknowns. I had a neighbor who built a garage off the alley on a very, very old property - as old as mine. He wanted to have water facilities in his garage, but when installing the waste lines they discovered that he had no hook-up to the sewer system at all! Unbeknownst to anyone, he had an old septic tank instead.


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Friday, May 14, 2021 8:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Before I go back to lurking on the sump pump - Jack - I'm confused ... does your sump pump drain to an underground perforated pipe after it exits the external wall? Or to your kitchen sink waste line, where you see it flowing when you open up the clean-out?

It sounds like you've only actually seen the sump pump outlet water flowing past your kitchen sink clean-out. So the underground sump pump pipe the sump water goes to after it exits the basement wall is a mystery, and it might actually be connected to your home 'sanitary' waste line near the kitchen sink?



I'm only guessing there is a perforated pipe for a french drain, and that's the 4" inlet inside the well. The pump goes into the drain pipe to the street... the same pipe the kitchen sink flows into.

That nub on the bottom center is the drain out of the foundation to the street. Above and to the left (very dark) you can see an angled pipe coming in and that's the kitchen sink. The white PVC coming up from the bottom, hitting the check valve and then going back down to the drain to the street is the sump pump pipe.




Quote:

FWIW - most places have 2 sewer systems - a 'sanitary' sewer system, and a 'storm' sewer system. The 'sanitary' sewer system collects water from home utilities and goes to some treatment plant, and then is discharged to some low-lying area. The 'storm' sewer system collects surface 'storm' water and goes directly to some discharge point.

AFAIK there are now no more 'combined' systems in the US, they were all eliminated way back before the 90's.

However, there are still systems where, in an intense storm, the storm water can overflow into the sewage system, and make either - or both - back up combined storm/ sewage water - through storm drains or home utilities like toilets or sinks.



THat might be what was happening here. There is no reason that my sump in the front should have made my toilet in the rear spill on the floor... unless my sump pump is also emptying out into the waste water and I don't have anything going to the storm sewers.

But then again, it was the storm sewers that were backed up, and that's why the street was flooded.

Maybe my poo goes into the storm sewer too.

Quote:

Then there's the 'grey' area you seem to have where it MAY be that some of your 'grey water' as well as your surface (sump pump) water might be being dumped onto your property.

It's expensive I think, but there are services that use both fiber-optics plus electronic signalling devices to monitor location. The fiber-optics are run through the waste pipe to check the condition - looking for roots, cracks, cave-ins etc, as well as branches (inlets and outlets). The locator sends a signal that can be detected above ground, to find out where the end of the fiber-optic cable is, and trace the path of your pipes.



Sounds outside of my budget. I'm also probably better off not knowing...

Quote:

Then there are the unknowns. I had a neighbor who built a garage off the alley on a very, very old property - as old as mine. He wanted to have water facilities in his garage, but when installing the waste lines they discovered that he had no hook-up to the sewer system at all! Unbeknownst to anyone, he had an old septic tank instead.




Wow. World's biggest septic tank? Or did he just buy the place?

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 8:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Just got a new time. A few minutes after 7PM it went on and it was 58 minutes and 46 seconds since the last time it finished a cycle.

That's down from 4 minutes and 47 seconds at 10AM on Sunday morning,

We're still going off more than once per hour 129 hours after the storm. Since then there was only a 0.03" shower on Monday morning and no other rain.




I really think it's because the water in the well is too high.

LOTS of water clearly goes out to the street and doesn't flow back. I can see that when I look in the clean out when the pump is operating. And when the water is drained near completely from the sump pump there is new water pouring in very fast.

I think it all wants to get down there but the high level of water in the well is just keeping gravity from doing its thing properly.




I mean... either that's the problem, or I have another huge crack past the clean out that is all somehow making it back to my house. But I think I'd see the ground eroding there like it did before I fixed the first crack.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 9:17 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


A couple ideas I forgot to mention:

tether bias
I didn't know if I had explained the zip tie option well enough, so I didn't include this part. It may be better to, for now, let out another 5" of cord through the cord clamp - and then zip tie that cord 5" down the side pf the pump, the zip tie encirling the pump (unless there is something down there to attach to.) The biggest benefit to this is the downward bias of the float range. the bottom of the range will be very easy for the float to hang straight down (and be a precise depth, not much inconsistency). But when full, the cord will be more resistant to bending upward - thus giving you a range bias toward deeper "Pump Off" level. Because I don't know how stiff your cord is (seems replacement tether floats can be bought separately), it may be a little better to use 2 zip tie points about 4" and 5" from the top of pump, allowing the cord to run 45 degrees diagonally before dropping out of the bottom zip tie. This still makes the drop down float position very easy and reliable, but when the cord is flexing up and away from the pump it has little danger of extending out to the wall of the well.
And if there is any crap that the float might hang up on, put a thin hard plastic piece on that portion of the pump casing, zip ties around the pump to hold it in place. That plastic: think of those cheap 3-ring binders with flimsy plastic covers. I get those called "shelf liners" or drawer liners, or "disposable cutting boards"

splice pipe coupling
Not sure if you were planning to install an entire new piece of 1 1/2" pipe from pump to check valve. But you might be doing that repeatedly until we iron out exactly what all of your solutions are. I was hoping you were just going to splice in a small piece, with 2 sleeves with hose clamps - just like you did on the other side of that wall. Much easier to just swap out different sizes a few times that to perma-glue everything right away. I'm thinking if that pipe repair outside has been able to withstand the beating of high pressure pump surges for the past year, the same sleeve splice above the well should be able to survive a few weeks without excessive leaking.


crawl space hate - relax
I can understand your repulsion. I personally really do not like fiberglass.
But my thinking was, when you have a choice between cold wet nasty inconvenient irritating disaster when the stores are closed, compared to dry, leisurely pace, relaxed, as time allows, with time to think, consider, plan, and price compare (even order cheap online) - I conjured one of those would be preferable than the other. I would want to be doing it now-ish. Take a flattened cardboard box to lay on, maybe a creeper that you use under your car.

alternate backup pump
For power outtages, you could have options set up in advance. What if you had a small pump, or manual pump, or bellows pump, siphon pump, Venturi pump, with a small hose already running from the well to wherever to hide your pump, and a handy pail right there, to go dump out when you want. (and maybe have a power wall outlet in a handy spot) If you still want to avoid having that pump in the kitchen area (allowing your little pump discharge hose to run out the window if you choose), then in the basement, on concrete, maybe behind where that missing door would be, between concrete floor basement and dirt floor. Plan in advance, be prepared. Even if we solve all of the problems you think we have now, you already know the situation is not fool=proof, so be ready for the unexpected future event.
Aw, geez. I forgot you said you have windows in the basement. so coil up some discharge hose, all ready to go, and pump everything out the window of the back wall, to the back yard.

condensate pump
Your dirt floor basement has thrown me off for awhile, so I've neglected to mention one handy fix for some of your problems. Have you used Condensate pumps? I love using them. On your dirt side, if you hollow out some dirt under the visqueen, and then set the condensate pump down in this hollow, then anytime excess water gets on top of the visqueen, this pump would send it wherever you want - like another tap into the kitchen sewer pipe. The discharge from these is often 3/8" IIRC, and can go the whole length of your house pretty easy. Normally, this is not a desirable solution for those with concrete floors - but you don't have that limitation.

mesh on pipe openings.
Most of the time I see these hose ends, folk use like a mesh net/filter, about the crosshatch of a tennis racket. You can just cover the end, and zip tie or hose clamp it around the body of the tube. This way, if you accidentally run your mower over it, easy fix.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
You are correct, I used the wrong formula - my bad. I corrected the figures in my post.

No worries. Glad you concur.

Quote:

Alright, Tethered Float. I looked it up, and tried to compare to your pics.
If I understand this correctly, you have described your system as only have a range adjustment, not having a height adjustment.

Yeah. There's just one screw that secures it at a single height, above the float. Just to reiterate the point, the old pump with the vertical float sees the action on the side, with the low (turn off) point somewhere above the bottom of the float where it would suck in air and the high (turn on) point somewhere before the top of the unit.

So with a cord tethered to the very top of the unit by a screw/clamp, the On/Off action occurs WAY higher than the old pump did. Then I added to that problem by putting a thick cinder block paver underneath to shim it up.
Quote:

You must have a common-type cord clamp, secured with a screw, which threads into the top of the casing of your pump housing. Let us call that your tether point, or tether pivot.
How much cord you have between the tether pivot and the float is what determines the range, your range adjustment (currently 7").

Yes. And this brings up another point...

You mentioned before you wanted my On/Off range at 10". This actually can only be done with a tether float. As far as I can tell, the standard On/Off range for the vertical floats is fixed at 5", although that might not be universal.

I have no idea WHERE you got that idea. My range, with threaded rod, has a stroke of at least a foot. I think it might be 15". The only limitations for threaded rod are the total depth of the well, and the length of threaded rod - and that can easily be replaced with longer rod. The longer stroke/duty cycle, the less stress on your pump/motor. Yours is being overworked at this point, without much to show for it.
Quote:


Quote:

One thing you need is a height adjustment. If equipped, this would be additional screw holes in the side of your pump housing, and you would need to use the screw hole about 5" below the top of the pump, to be your new tether pivot.
If not equipped, you can make a temporary fix by using 2 zip-ties, 1 small and 1 or more large. The large one (or extending more than one together) would go all the way around the pump housing, about 5" down from the top of the casing (unless there is something around there to fasten to).
The second, small zip tie tucks through that large one, and around the cord - add an inch to where the cord is currently cinched.

This should allow your Pump On and Pump Off positions to be much more functionable.

This is a GREAT idea. I usually come up with things like this, but I hate going down there so much, and I think I have a subconscious block about being down there or doing anything down there. Not only have I done those two horrible freezing water emergency fixes, but I also scorched my lungs once using bleach to clean the visqueen many years back. I didn't know how bad it was until I went out for a break later and a single puff of a cigarette felt like I had just set my lungs on fire. Coffee tasted like bleach for 2 days straight.

I hate that crawl space.

Thanks for that zip tie tip though. That's why I really appreciate the time you're taking here with me on this. I've got to hit up the post office tomorrow morning, so I'll swing by the dollar store and get me some zip ties.
Quote:

The more permanent solution would be to make a piece of metal bracket. With a right angle bend, one hole would be made to use the existing or similar screw to fasten the bracket to the top of the pump. The longer part of the bracket would run down the side of the pump, and have drilled and threaded holes every inch or so - which would accept the existing cord clamp and screw - and would be your range adjustments, where the tether pivot would be.
Well they do say that the average life expectancy of a good sump is around 10 years. It should probably be more for me in ideal situations since it's not even pushing the water up 10 feet, but because of how often it has gone on since it was installed, coupled with the fact that it has a film of indistinguishable crud around it that never used to be there with the old ones, I think it might be time to invest in a new one.

After our discussion I'm not going to run out and buy a new one just yet, especially since a tethered option might be the way to go. But I will be trying the temporary zip tie solution for now and experimenting with it for a while before I research the best new option. It might even be time to get one with a battery backup 2nd unit. Then I wouldn't have to worry about being home to fire up the generator if the power goes out too.
Quote:

The other thing to do would be to lower your pump deeper in the well. find the bottom of the well (I don't know if you have a Wet Vac, or maybe use a kitty-poo scooper to dig up the crud at the bottom - use a glove). And remove that paver underneath, and add a piece of PVC to connect the new lower position of the pump discharge to the output drain pipe.
I've got a wet vac, but I'm not using it on that. I'd rather just get my hands dirty.

I'll be going to my brothers for a few days soon. I probably will work on this part when I get back next week.
Quote:

The best point for the high level (Pump On) switch is when the inlet tube is only half covered with water. The bottom level (Pump Off) should be 1-2 inches above where the pump sucks air - you want the pump to never suck air when operating on it's own, without your supervision.
Okay. Yeah. It turns off around half full and turns on almost 5" above. First thing I will do is fix this and between that and removing all of the roof water in the Bermuda Triangle I will monitor how much better the situation has gotten next time we get a big rain.

Eff the next rain. If you did some of this (float adjustment, much lower than now), like, today, I would expect noticeable results NOW.
Quote:


Quote:

Also, the tether pivot point may need to be moved around the side of the pump, so the float can move freely and not hang up on anything in it's range of motion up and down.
Oh... I'll be careful about that. I've already gotten that tether caught on the visqueen flap once before I went to visit my brother sometime last fall. By the time I had gotten back the visqueen was a waterbed again. My heart sank, since I thought I'd be doing my 3rd emergency install, but when I went down there I realized right away what had happened. Thanks though.
Quote:

eta: Looking at your pic again, is that a ring of screws, about 5 inches below the top of the pump? Can you use one of those to fasten your cord clamp?
Eeeeeehhh.... I don't think so. That ring looks to me like some sort of seal. There might be a gasket there that I wouldn't want to disturb.
Quote:

Even if you just drop the pump to the bottom, lowering it 2-3 inches, and let out the cord another 2", that would help also.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Doing both, lowering the tether pivot, and lowering the height of the pump, would be the best combination - and your existing pump would work fine in this way.

I had to go to the hardware store to make a few returns and pick up a few other things today, and a 5' length of 1/2" PVC was one of the things I picked up. I thought I had already had one, but it was about 4.5 feet of 2". I had to struggle to remember what that was for, but if memory serves I actually used 2 rubber couplers with a length of PVC in between the drain pipe when I fixed it. Yeah... that is what it was. There was no way I could get a coupler on both ends of the broken pipe, so I had to cut a section out.



I also got 3 4" circular grates for the end of my 3 installed downspout drains. That should keep any curious rodents out.

Hope some of that helps.


Another aside. You mentioned you don't know where your property line/boundary is. Because you made this mistake before purchase, I'll point out that you should NOT have anybody do that for you prior to selling (even if you are curious). Based upon the layout of your property, and the Uncle Bob factor, if you find out/are told that your property is illegal and in violation of city ordinance (most places this cannot be grandfathered, you would need to correct the error, such as tearing down violations), then you could not sell with that knowledge - without incurring large legal fees and fines and cancellation of real estate sale. This is an instance of ignorance is better.
However, DO NOT buy another property without first getting it surveyed (requested directly by you, performed with your name as client, and billed to you, and paid by you, separate from all other transactions). It's only a few hundred $ in WI, and it was the first or second thing (with home inspection) I had lined up after having an offer accepted. If you buy an illegal property, you bought a legal headache, and you might not even be issued a CoO.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 10:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
A couple ideas I forgot to mention:

tether bias
I didn't know if I had explained the zip tie option well enough, so I didn't include this part. It may be better to, for now, let out another 5" of cord through the cord clamp - and then zip tie that cord 5" down the side pf the pump, the zip tie encirling the pump (unless there is something down there to attach to.) The biggest benefit to this is the downward bias of the float range. the bottom of the range will be very easy for the float to hang straight down (and be a precise depth, not much inconsistency). But when full, the cord will be more resistant to bending upward - thus giving you a range bias toward deeper "Pump Off" level. Because I don't know how stiff your cord is (seems replacement tether floats can be bought separately), it may be a little better to use 2 zip tie points about 4" and 5" from the top of pump, allowing the cord to run 45 degrees diagonally before dropping out of the bottom zip tie. This still makes the drop down float position very easy and reliable, but when the cord is flexing away from the pump it has little danger of extending out to the wall of the well.
And if there is any crap that the float might hang up on, put a thin hard plastic piece on that portion of the pump casing, zip ties around the pump to hold it in place. That plastic: think of those cheap 3-ring binders with flimsy plastic covers. I get those called "shelf liners" or drawer liners, or "disposable cutting boards"



I'll ask you any questions I have when I'm ready to do it. I think I'll have to print this out and then think about it when I'm down there looking at it.

Quote:

splice pipe coupling
Not sure if you were planning to install an entire new piece of 1 1/2" pipe from pump to check valve. But you might be doing that repeatedly until we iron out exactly what all of your solutions are. I was hoping you were just going to splice in a small piece, with 2 sleeves with hose clamps - just like you did on the other side of that wall. Much easier to just swap out different sizes a few times that to perma-glue everything right away. I'm thinking if that pipe repair outside has been able to withstand the beating of high pressure pump surges for the past year, the same sleeve splice above the well should be able to survive a few weeks without excessive leaking.



Maybe I'll just take the check valve out for now and use the existing sleeves there for the cutoff pipe. Since the kitchen water isn't going into the well and the height of the pvc is so short, what's a tube full of water when I've already got this much to deal with?

Yeah. I don't want to be continually buying new PVC. The price of goods in Biden's* America have gone up. It was $7.00 with tax for the one I bought today.

Quote:

crawl space hate - relax
I can understand your repulsion. I personally really do not like fiberglass.
But my thinking was, when you have a choice between cold wet nasty inconvenient irritating disaster when the stores are closed, compared to dry, leisurely pace, relaxed, as time allows, with time to think, consider, plan, and price compare (even order cheap online) - I conjured one of those would be preferable than the other. I would want to be doing it now-ish. Take a flattened cardboard box to lay on, maybe a creeper that you use under your car.



Yeah... I know. I was supposed to do this last year when we dried up. But it was easy for me to find excuses for other work to keep away from it. But I can't let it go again.

Quote:

alternate backup pump
For power outtages, you could have options set up in advance. What if you had a small pump, or manual pump, or bellows pump, siphon pump, Venturi pump, with a small hose already running from the well to wherever to hide your pump, and a handy pail right there, to go dump out when you want. (and maybe have a power wall outlet in a handy spot) If you still want to avoid having that pump in the kitchen area (allowing your little pump discharge hose to run out the window if you choose), then in the basement, on concrete, maybe behind where that missing door would be, between concrete floor basement and dirt floor. Plan in advance, be prepared. Even if we solve all of the problems you think we have now, you already know the situation is not fool=proof, so be ready for the unexpected future event.



I actually have another sump pump that has been in the box for about 5 years now. My step dad gave it to me as a backup one christmas after I did my 2nd emergency fix. I can't remember the specs, but it's just a cheap Flotec. I think it was $80 at the time.

The hardware store had corrugated 1/2" pipe in 24 ft lengths for like 28 bucks, but unless I cut holes in the wall that's not going to do me any good. I'd have to take some measurements, but maybe if I could find a 50 foot length of the stuff I could have a pump I could drop in the well in an emergency and at least get it out one of the back windows in the livable space. I can't remember what the needed measurements would be.

Last year I bought an expensive heavy duty, 100' length extension cord that I have the female end hung right next to the outlet box and all along the perimeter of the crawl, where I have it wrapped around two heavy duty shelf brackets I installed inverted for that purpose. All I need to do if the power goes out is take it off the brackets, fish it out a window and get it to the garage where the generator is, fire it up, then go back in the crawl and switch from the outlet to the cord.

100 feet was seriously overkill, and that's going all the way inside the garage. When I tested it, I actually wrapped it up the stairs, went through the back porch door and out to the garage and had cord to spare.

If all I needed was to go at an angle to get out the crawl space door and then go straight through the bathroom door, I'm pretty sure that 50 feet would get me way past the foundation of the house and into the yard for this.

I could even do this if the city sewer backed up, but it would probably require removing the good pump to fit it in there. Not ideal. Eventually I'd like to have the option to manually switch from the pipe to the street to one that leads to a pipe above ground that I could attach a hose to and put anywhere outside.


Quote:

condensate pump
Your dirt floor basement has thrown me off for awhile, so I've neglected to mention one handy fix for some of your problems. Have you used Condensate pumps? I love using them. On your dirt side, if you hollow out some dirt under the visqueen, and then set the condensate pump down in this hollow, then anytime excess water gets on top of the visqueen, this pump would send it wherever you want - like another tap into the kitchen sewer pipe. The discharge from these is often 3/8" IIRC, and can go the whole length of your house pretty easy. Normally, this is not a desirable solution for those with concrete floors - but you don't have that limitation.



I've never heard of these before. If I'm just pulling condensation, couldn't I just feed it right into the sump well?

Quote:

mesh on pipe openings.
Most of the time I see these hose ends, folk use like a mesh net/filter, about the crosshatch of a tennis racket. You can just cover the end, and zip tie or hose clamp it around the body of the tube. This way, if you accidentally run your mower over it, easy fix.



Oh... are you talking about the drain pipes on the downspout now? Yeah. That would have been cheaper.


Quote:

I have no idea WHERE you got that idea. My range, with threaded rod, has a stroke of at least a foot. I think it might be 15". The only limitations for threaded rod are the total depth of the well, and the length of threaded rod - and that can easily be replaced with longer. The longer strode/duty cycle, the less stress on your pump/motor. Yours is being overworked at this point, without much to show for it.


Well you're talking about a 3rd type of pump I haven't seen yet then. The vertical pumps I've seen all have a fixed and very small window. Most will say right on the box the window, and I've only ever seen 5".


Quote:

Eff the next rain. If you did some of this (float adjustment, much lower than now), like, today, I would expect noticeable results NOW.


Well... My concern with the next rain is how quickly it's going to fill up the well while I'm trying to work on it (and the pump is out of commission).

We're at about an hour now. If I did this 2 weeks ago I would have been at a full day.

An hour's probably where I'm comfortable with doing it. Sure, I've had a crash course of doing emergency fixes twice, but I have very little plumbing experience outside of that, and it's pretty apparent I didn't do a good job the 2nd time.

I don't think we're getting any big rains upcoming, so maybe it won't ever get below an hour again between cycles before I get it deep enough.




ETA: I guess I lied. Looks like starting tomorrow through Tusday night we're predicted getting .41" of rain. When I come back on Wednesday morning, we're getting another .40" of rain through Wednesday night.

Not exactly 3.6" in 10 hours, but nothing to laugh at either.

At least I'll get a good test of my new drain pipes and be able to see if they have alleviated some of the issue. I can't imagine they wouldn't have.

I'll be sure to get a sump pump time when before I leave and then see what it is right when I get back.

Kind of pissed now that it's going to rain that much while I'm gone. It wasn't supposed to be doing that. Now I get to worry about that the whole time I'm gone.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:06 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


6ix,
condensate pump is what it's called, but it is handy for all kinds of uses, like for you. If your sump malfunctions and overflows, this small pump can send water elsewhere, but sending it to your sump well when it is already overflowing......


Looks like I edited that post, about your basement window, and you may have missed it. read again.



eta: I considered the cost of PVC to be lesser concern than having to glue and re-glue, cut the pipe over and over again - that would be a pain in my book.


regarding the interval to work on it, I forgot to mention: start off manually triggering the pump until it almost sucks air, then futz around or prep for a few minutes, at least 5 min. then if no more water flowing out of drainage tile into well, run the pump again until it starts to suck air. If no more vwater flowing into pit, you should have 2 or 3 hours before it is full again - and then you could scoop some out and into a 5-gal pail to buy more time.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:15 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
condensate pump is what it's called, but it is handy for all kinds of uses, like for you. If your sump malfunctions and overflows, this small pump can send water elsewhere, but sending it to your sump well when it is already overflowing......



Oh... I thought it was just a beefier dehumidifier. I already have one of those that drains into the well so I don't have to go into the crawl and dump out the water tray every time it fills up. It hardly goes on anymore though. Not after I got that A/C last summer, and it never went off during the months that the heat was on.

Yeah. That's a way better idea than digging a 2nd well and putting a second sump in there.


Quote:

Looks like I edited that post, about your basement window, and you may have missed it. read again.



You mean feeding a hose out there? Yeah.

I'd have to find one long enough though. I could drill a hole in the floor of the cabinet under the kitchen sink and feed it out the kitchen window if I needed to, I suppose...

I'm covering that up with finished work, but it will all be removable. A 24ft hose would work fine then, I'd think.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:24 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
6ix,
condensate pump is what it's called, but it is handy for all kinds of uses, like for you. If your sump malfunctions and overflows, this small pump can send water elsewhere, but sending it to your sump well when it is already overflowing......

Oh... I thought it was just a beefier dehumidifier. I already have one of those that drains into the well so I don't have to go into the crawl and dump out the water tray every time it fills up. It hardly goes on anymore though. Not after I got that A/C last summer, and it never went off during the months that the heat was on.

Yeah. That's a way better idea than digging a 2nd well and putting a second sump in there.

Quote:

Looks like I edited that post, about your basement window, and you may have missed it. read again.

You mean feeding a hose out there? Yeah.

I'd have to find one long enough though. I could drill a hole in the floor of the cabinet under the kitchen sink and feed it out the kitchen window if I needed to, I suppose...

I'm covering that up with finished work, but it will all be removable. A 24ft hose would work fine then, I'd think.

geez, i edited behind you again.

anyhow, whether you run it out the basement window or up to the kitchen, you get to take some time now and plan in advance, think it out. you might just have it coiled at the entrance to crawlspace, ready to run up the stairs to go out the window, in unplanned situations. Since you are planning, and you will be the benefactor/victim, you get to decide what would be easiest for you.

I like using that clear tubing about 3/8" when rigid PVC doesn't work. I think i find it near the faucets at Home Depot, forget what it's called or made for - but I keep using it a bunch. It is usually quite cheap.


try to make that float adjustment before the next rain. I had thought it was going to be a while before rain again.

At least i'm not telling you to spend a bunch of $.

I should be able to catch up on posts when you are gone.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Could you show me the tube you're talking about, and how you'd attach it to a pump?

It's probably cheaper, and easier to move around and store. It's also probably something I could have an easier time getting it to the length I need instead of overpaying for way too much, or being left short a few feet.



I didn't mean that cutting small pieces of pipe would be a waste. I was saying I'd rather not have to cut long pipes over and over and over again and waste $80 on many lengths of PVC for trial and error.

I like the idea of just using small pieces with the two sleeves.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:40 PM

BRENDA


Quote:

Originally posted by 1KIKI:

Hey Brenda - have a good day!



Day was okay. Interesting walk back from work. I was dive bombed by a crow three times. I was eating the last of my lunch sandwich. Each time it landed and followed me for a bit. Had put the last little bit of the sandwich back in the bag so the crow would stop doing what it was doing. I think someone in the neighbourhood must be feeding the thing for it exhibit that sort of behavior. Stupid bird.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Could you show me the tube you're talking about, and how you'd attach it to a pump?

It's probably cheaper, and easier to move around and store. It's also probably something I could have an easier time getting it to the length I need instead of overpaying for way too much, or being left short a few feet.



I didn't mean that cutting small pieces of pipe would be a waste. I was saying I'd rather not have to cut long pipes over and over and over again and waste $80 on many lengths of PVC for trial and error.

I like the idea of just using small pieces with the two sleeves.

I'll look for the hose. connection is easy. the condensate pump usually has a vertical connection sticking up vertically, might look kinda like a barb. this flexi-hose just slides right on, as long as you have the size the fitting is made for. I don't think it is a Legris Fitting, but connects just as easy. removing it is not easy, the one time i tried it. using a dual-barbed fitting from the plumbing dept joins the end of one hose to the next, to infinity.



the hose. i found it on home deot site, but they didn't show a nice cute item number, nor any pricing.

they call it clear vinyl tubing or hose, 3/8" inside diam (but check the fitting size on the pump you'll use). brand names were UDP and hydromaxx. you don't need the reinforced or braided. can you find a price(s)?

supplyhouse.com seems to have it about half the price for 100' - under $14. compared to HD. saw that lowes had it too, and various lengths of 10', 20', 50'.

don't know if this will work:
www.homedepot.com/p/udp-3-8-in-i-d-x-1-2-in-o-d-x-100-ft-clear-

this works for a search:
product number 304185196
then scroll down to "frequently bought together"
they have a bunch of options. can't see if everbilt is cheaper in the 100'.

h

eta: hey, if you get that condensate pump (or use the one you have), run the tubing over to your bathroom, tape it up so it just pours into your toilet, and then hold the condensate pump in your hand, slowly lower it into the sump well surface, when it kicks on just keep holding it just so the water is flowing into the condensate tank, and keep slowly lowering it until it's at the bottom. i really think that would be very easy. a sump pump would be hard to hold, but those condensate pumps can be held like that with one hand while running. I think just don't submerge the thing, the top is where the pump motor is. when no more water is flowing inside that little tank, the pump stops running, so you could set it aside while doing more work.

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Friday, May 14, 2021 11:43 PM

BRENDA


Back from work at 5:30pm. Tired now and as for work about the usual.

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Saturday, May 15, 2021 1:01 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


double post somehow. see the next post.


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
A couple ideas I forgot to mention:

tether bias
I didn't know if I had explained the zip tie option well enough, so I didn't include this part. It may be better to, for now, let out another 5" of cord through the cord clamp - and then zip tie that cord 5" down the side pf the pump, the zip tie encirling the pump (unless there is something down there to attach to.) The biggest benefit to this is the downward bias of the float range. the bottom of the range will be very easy for the float to hang straight down (and be a precise depth, not much inconsistency). But when full, the cord will be more resistant to bending upward - thus giving you a range bias toward deeper "Pump Off" level. Because I don't know how stiff your cord is (seems replacement tether floats can be bought separately), it may be a little better to use 2 zip tie points about 4" and 5" from the top of pump, allowing the cord to run 45 degrees diagonally before dropping out of the bottom zip tie. This still makes the drop down float position very easy and reliable, but when the cord is flexing away from the pump it has little danger of extending out to the wall of the well.
And if there is any crap that the float might hang up on, put a thin hard plastic piece on that portion of the pump casing, zip ties around the pump to hold it in place. That plastic: think of those cheap 3-ring binders with flimsy plastic covers. I get those called "shelf liners" or drawer liners, or "disposable cutting boards"



I'll ask you any questions I have when I'm ready to do it. I think I'll have to print this out and then think about it when I'm down there looking at it.

Quote:

splice pipe coupling
Not sure if you were planning to install an entire new piece of 1 1/2" pipe from pump to check valve. But you might be doing that repeatedly until we iron out exactly what all of your solutions are. I was hoping you were just going to splice in a small piece, with 2 sleeves with hose clamps - just like you did on the other side of that wall. Much easier to just swap out different sizes a few times that to perma-glue everything right away. I'm thinking if that pipe repair outside has been able to withstand the beating of high pressure pump surges for the past year, the same sleeve splice above the well should be able to survive a few weeks without excessive leaking.



Maybe I'll just take the check valve out for now and use the existing sleeves there for the cutoff pipe. Since the kitchen water isn't going into the well and the height of the pvc is so short, what's a tube full of water when I've already got this much to deal with?

Yeah. I don't want to be continually buying new PVC. The price of goods in Biden's* America have gone up. It was $7.00 with tax for the one I bought today.

Quote:

crawl space hate - relax
I can understand your repulsion. I personally really do not like fiberglass.
But my thinking was, when you have a choice between cold wet nasty inconvenient irritating disaster when the stores are closed, compared to dry, leisurely pace, relaxed, as time allows, with time to think, consider, plan, and price compare (even order cheap online) - I conjured one of those would be preferable than the other. I would want to be doing it now-ish. Take a flattened cardboard box to lay on, maybe a creeper that you use under your car.



Yeah... I know. I was supposed to do this last year when we dried up. But it was easy for me to find excuses for other work to keep away from it. But I can't let it go again.

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alternate backup pump
For power outtages, you could have options set up in advance. What if you had a small pump, or manual pump, or bellows pump, siphon pump, Venturi pump, with a small hose already running from the well to wherever to hide your pump, and a handy pail right there, to go dump out when you want. (and maybe have a power wall outlet in a handy spot) If you still want to avoid having that pump in the kitchen area (allowing your little pump discharge hose to run out the window if you choose), then in the basement, on concrete, maybe behind where that missing door would be, between concrete floor basement and dirt floor. Plan in advance, be prepared. Even if we solve all of the problems you think we have now, you already know the situation is not fool=proof, so be ready for the unexpected future event.



I actually have another sump pump that has been in the box for about 5 years now. My step dad gave it to me as a backup one christmas after I did my 2nd emergency fix. I can't remember the specs, but it's just a cheap Flotec. I think it was $80 at the time.

The hardware store had corrugated 1/2" pipe in 24 ft lengths for like 28 bucks, but unless I cut holes in the wall that's not going to do me any good. I'd have to take some measurements, but maybe if I could find a 50 foot length of the stuff I could have a pump I could drop in the well in an emergency and at least get it out one of the back windows in the livable space. I can't remember what the needed measurements would be.

Last year I bought an expensive heavy duty, 100' length extension cord that I have the female end hung right next to the outlet box and all along the perimeter of the crawl, where I have it wrapped around two heavy duty shelf brackets I installed inverted for that purpose. All I need to do if the power goes out is take it off the brackets, fish it out a window and get it to the garage where the generator is, fire it up, then go back in the crawl and switch from the outlet to the cord.

100 feet was seriously overkill, and that's going all the way inside the garage. When I tested it, I actually wrapped it up the stairs, went through the back porch door and out to the garage and had cord to spare.

If all I needed was to go at an angle to get out the crawl space door and then go straight through the bathroom door, I'm pretty sure that 50 feet would get me way past the foundation of the house and into the yard for this.

I could even do this if the city sewer backed up, but it would probably require removing the good pump to fit it in there. Not ideal. Eventually I'd like to have the option to manually switch from the pipe to the street to one that leads to a pipe above ground that I could attach a hose to and put anywhere outside.


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condensate pump
Your dirt floor basement has thrown me off for awhile, so I've neglected to mention one handy fix for some of your problems. Have you used Condensate pumps? I love using them. On your dirt side, if you hollow out some dirt under the visqueen, and then set the condensate pump down in this hollow, then anytime excess water gets on top of the visqueen, this pump would send it wherever you want - like another tap into the kitchen sewer pipe. The discharge from these is often 3/8" IIRC, and can go the whole length of your house pretty easy. Normally, this is not a desirable solution for those with concrete floors - but you don't have that limitation.



I've never heard of these before. If I'm just pulling condensation, couldn't I just feed it right into the sump well?

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mesh on pipe openings.
Most of the time I see these hose ends, folk use like a mesh net/filter, about the crosshatch of a tennis racket. You can just cover the end, and zip tie or hose clamp it around the body of the tube. This way, if you accidentally run your mower over it, easy fix.



Oh... are you talking about the drain pipes on the downspout now? Yeah. That would have been cheaper.


Quote:

I have no idea WHERE you got that idea. My range, with threaded rod, has a stroke of at least a foot. I think it might be 15". The only limitations for threaded rod are the total depth of the well, and the length of threaded rod - and that can easily be replaced with longer. The longer strode/duty cycle, the less stress on your pump/motor. Yours is being overworked at this point, without much to show for it.


Well you're talking about a 3rd type of pump I haven't seen yet then. The vertical pumps I've seen all have a fixed and very small window. Most will say right on the box the window, and I've only ever seen 5".


Quote:

Eff the next rain. If you did some of this (float adjustment, much lower than now), like, today, I would expect noticeable results NOW.


Well... My concern with the next rain is how quickly it's going to fill up the well while I'm trying to work on it (and the pump is out of commission).

We're at about an hour now. If I did this 2 weeks ago I would have been at a full day.

An hour's probably where I'm comfortable with doing it. Sure, I've had a crash course of doing emergency fixes twice, but I have very little plumbing experience outside of that, and it's pretty apparent I didn't do a good job the 2nd time.

I don't think we're getting any big rains upcoming, so maybe it won't ever get below an hour again between cycles before I get it deep enough.




ETA: I guess I lied. Looks like starting tomorrow through Tusday night we're predicted getting .41" of rain. When I come back on Wednesday morning, we're getting another .40" of rain through Wednesday night.

Not exactly 3.6" in 10 hours, but nothing to laugh at either.

At least I'll get a good test of my new drain pipes and be able to see if they have alleviated some of the issue. I can't imagine they wouldn't have.

I'll be sure to get a sump pump time when before I leave and then see what it is right when I get back.

Kind of pissed now that it's going to rain that much while I'm gone. It wasn't supposed to be doing that. Now I get to worry about that the whole time I'm gone.

--------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or just come shoot me in my house. I'm so over this ridiculous reality.

Hey, took a while to find, but I found out my sump pump style is called a Pedestal sump pump.
Looks like one called Ecoflo has the rod passing through the top of the switch, like mine.
see if you can look at that and see how easy you can adjust for 24" if your well was that deep.
1/3 hp for $73 I see, and mine works great.
If you do decide to use this type, let me know for some installation tips.
This type does not have the motor submerged, the motor is well above water level.

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